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Rich R

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What makes it even clearer is that in Phil 2:4 Paul is talking about humility. We are to have the same humility of Jesus by thinking it is acceptable to think we are equal to God? Again, something is wrong with the translation of verse 6. Is anyone seeing a pattern yet about trinitarian “proof” texts?
Yes, the context of this section is all about being a servant to our brothers and sisters. Even though we, as Christians, are the apex of God's work, we are not to use that to go around bragging how good we are. Instead we are to be humble and use the power God gave us for service to others.

Phil 4:6 is one of those verses I don't totally understand. I've read a lot about it, but nothing is settled in my mind. But there are 2 things I do know about it:

1) It does not say, "...who being God, thought it not robbery to be God." That much should be obvious.

2) It can't contradict the many other verses I've quoted that clearly say Jesus could not possibly be God, that Jesus is the son of God and not the so-called God the Son.​

Some things just take time to be revealed to the sincere student of God's truth. It is far better to wait instead of simply adapt tradition, especially when the tradition is contrary to the scriptures. So I wait! :)
 

farouk

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Yes, the context of this section is all about being a servant to our brothers and sisters. Even though we, as Christians, are the apex of God's work, we are not to use that to go around bragging how good we are. Instead we are to be humble and use the power God gave us for service to others.

Phil 4:6 is one of those verses I don't totally understand. I've read a lot about it, but nothing is settled in my mind. But there are 2 things I do know about it.

1) It can't contradict the many other verses I've quoted that clearly say Jesus could not possibly be God, that Jesus is the son of God and not the so-called God the Son.

2) It does not say, "...who being God, thought it not robbery to be God." That much I know.

Some things just take time to be revealed to the sincere student of God's truth. It is far better to wait instead of simply adapt tradition, especially when the tradition is contrary to the scriptures. So I wait! :)
The equality of the Lord Jesus with God is totally Scriptural.
 

Rich R

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SAnd without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
All of the earlier Greek texts do not say, ...God was manifested..." They say, "...which was manifested..."

"God" in Greek is θεός, whereas "which" is ός. As you can see, they are kind of close to each other. It was not until around the 8th century that the texts said θεός. Prior to that they all say, ός. Perhaps some 8th century scribe had tired eyes and made an honest mistake. That is perfectly understandable and would have been an honest mistake. Or it could be that some scribe wanted to add weight to the existence of the trinity, in which case it would have been a deliberate forgery. Either one is possible. The same idea applies to other verses as well.

Bruce Metzger was a highly respected Greek grammarian, both by Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians. He said the following:

"The reading which, on the basis of external evidence and transcriptional probability, best explains the rise of the others is ὅς [“who,” “which”]. It is supported by the earliest and best uncials (א* A*vid C* Ggr) as well as by 33 365 442 2127 syrhmg, pal goth ethppOrigenlat Epiphanius Jerome Theodore Eutheriusacc. to Theodoret Cyril Cyrilacc. to Ps-Oecumenius Liberatus. Furthermore, since the neuter relative pronoun ὅ must have arisen as a scribal correction of ὅς (to bring the relative into concord with μυστήριον [mystery]), the witnesses that read ὅ (D* itd, g, 61. 86 vg Ambrosiaster Marius Victorinus Hilary Pelagius Augustine) also indirectly presuppose ὅς as the earlier reading. The Textus Receptus reads θεός [God], with אe (this corrector is of the twelfth century) A2 C2 Dc K L P Ψ 81 330 614 1739 Byz Lect Gregory-Nyssa Didymus Chrysostom Theodoret Euthalius and later Fathers. Thus, no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) supports θεός [God]; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς or ὅ and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός. The reading θεός arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of ΟC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs, or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision.” [in other words, to more directly support the doctrine of the Trinity]."
(Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament).

 

Rich R

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The equality of the Lord Jesus with God is totally Scriptural.
Whatever you think Philippians 2:6 says, just know that verse 5 says you should think the same way.

Me? I wouldn't want to think I'm actually God, but that's just me. Everybody makes their own choices.
 

farouk

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Whatever you think Philippians 2:6 says, just know that verse 5 says you should think the same way.

Me? I wouldn't want to think I'm actually God, but that's just me. Everybody makes their own choices.
The chapter opens about having a humble attitude, of which Christ's example is perfect.
 

DavidB

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Yes, the context of this section is all about being a servant to our brothers and sisters. Even though we, as Christians, are the apex of God's work, we are not to use that to go around bragging how good we are. Instead we are to be humble and use the power God gave us for service to others.

Phil 4:6 is one of those verses I don't totally understand. I've read a lot about it, but nothing is settled in my mind. But there are 2 things I do know about it:

1) It does not say, "...who being God, thought it not robbery to be God." That much should be obvious.

2) It can't contradict the many other verses I've quoted that clearly say Jesus could not possibly be God, that Jesus is the son of God and not the so-called God the Son.​

Some things just take time to be revealed to the sincere student of God's truth. It is far better to wait instead of simply adapt tradition, especially when the tradition is contrary to the scriptures. So I wait! :)
The key is in the words “thought it not.” Jesus never even thought of grasping or snatching equality with God. His humility would never allow that. Now the verse fits with the context and sits in direct contradiction of the trinity instead of supporting it.
 

Rich R

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The key is in the words “thought it not.” Jesus never even thought of grasping or snatching equality with God. His humility would never allow that. Now the verse fits with the context and sits in direct contradiction of the trinity instead of supporting it.
Precisely. Luckily for us Jesus didn't make the same mistake as Adam! Otherwise we'd still be waiting for redemption.
 

DavidB

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Precisely. Luckily for us Jesus didn't make the same mistake as Adam! Otherwise we'd still be waiting for redemption.
Here are a few translations that agree.

American Standard Version
“Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

Goodspeed
“Though he possessed the nature of God, he did not grasp at equality with God,"

English Standard Version
"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

Catholic New Jerusalem Bible
"Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped."

New World Translation
"Who although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Add Phil 2:6 to the list of trinity “proof” texts that are at best disputed. Is anyone seeing a pattern yet?
 
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Rich R

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Here are a few translations that agree.

American Standard Version
“Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

Goodspeed
“Though he possessed the nature of God, he did not grasp at equality with God,"

English Standard Version
"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

Catholic New Jerusalem Bible
"Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped."

New World Translation
"Who although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Add Phil 2:6 to the list of trinity “proof” texts that are at best disputed. Is anyone seeing a pattern yet?
Those are good translations.

I had someone one tell me yesterday that John 17 is proof of the trinity. To me, the whole chapter is a beautiful prayer from a son to his Father, which anywhere by trinityville would be one person talking to another person. Sounds like two people to me.

In general, I'd say 95% of trinity proof verses say nothing of the sort. There are only a few that maybe, possibly, perhaps could be construed as a trinity, but they all could easily be taken the other way around. I favor the latter since there are tons of crystal clear verses that in no way could be taken as Trinitarian. For sure, all verse have to agree one way or the other.

But in the end, I have to say there are many trinitarians that I greatly admire and are probably a much better servant of God than myself.

Still, it would be nice if trinitarians didn't keep telling my I'm going up in flames! I'd probably have been burnt at the stake by now if I lived a mere 500 or 600 years ago. That's a pretty sobering thought indeed! But luckily I was born in the 20th century where they'd get in a lot of trouble for lighting me up! :)
 

farouk

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The key is in the words “thought it not.” Jesus never even thought of grasping or snatching equality with God. His humility would never allow that. Now the verse fits with the context and sits in direct contradiction of the trinity instead of supporting it.
The passage indicates that the Lord Jesus is indeed equal with God.
 

michaelvpardo

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All of the earlier Greek texts do not say, ...God was manifested..." They say, "...which was manifested..."

"God" in Greek is θεός, whereas "which" is ός. As you can see, they are kind of close to each other. It was not until around the 8th century that the texts said θεός. Prior to that they all say, ός. Perhaps some 8th century scribe had tired eyes and made an honest mistake. That is perfectly understandable and would have been an honest mistake. Or it could be that some scribe wanted to add weight to the existence of the trinity, in which case it would have been a deliberate forgery. Either one is possible. The same idea applies to other verses as well.

Bruce Metzger was a highly respected Greek grammarian, both by Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians. He said the following:

"The reading which, on the basis of external evidence and transcriptional probability, best explains the rise of the others is ὅς [“who,” “which”]. It is supported by the earliest and best uncials (א* A*vid C* Ggr) as well as by 33 365 442 2127 syrhmg, pal goth ethppOrigenlat Epiphanius Jerome Theodore Eutheriusacc. to Theodoret Cyril Cyrilacc. to Ps-Oecumenius Liberatus. Furthermore, since the neuter relative pronoun ὅ must have arisen as a scribal correction of ὅς (to bring the relative into concord with μυστήριον [mystery]), the witnesses that read ὅ (D* itd, g, 61. 86 vg Ambrosiaster Marius Victorinus Hilary Pelagius Augustine) also indirectly presuppose ὅς as the earlier reading. The Textus Receptus reads θεός [God], with אe (this corrector is of the twelfth century) A2 C2 Dc K L P Ψ 81 330 614 1739 Byz Lect Gregory-Nyssa Didymus Chrysostom Theodoret Euthalius and later Fathers. Thus, no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) supports θεός [God]; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς or ὅ and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός. The reading θεός arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of ΟC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs, or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision.” [in other words, to more directly support the doctrine of the Trinity]."
(Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament).

Your unbelief is noted, you've been warned and offered grace. Your condemnation is now your own choice.
 

Rich R

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Your unbelief is noted, you've been warned and offered grace. Your condemnation is now your own choice.
Why do you condemn me for pointing out what is well known by virtually anyone that looks into the matter? Do you not care to look into it for yourself? If not, that shows a distinct lack of respect for God's word and I have to wonder by what authority you pronounce your judgments.
 

michaelvpardo

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Why do you condemn me for pointing out what is well known by virtually anyone that looks into the matter? Do you not care to look into it for yourself? If not, that shows a distinct lack of respect for God's word and I have to wonder by what authority you pronounce your judgments.
I have the authority of my commission and the word of God.
You've been warned, but God will grant you a sign. Turn from lies and deception and kiss the Son

Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
 
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DavidB

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Those are good translations.

I had someone one tell me yesterday that John 17 is proof of the trinity. To me, the whole chapter is a beautiful prayer from a son to his Father, which anywhere by trinityville would be one person talking to another person. Sounds like two people to me.

In general, I'd say 95% of trinity proof verses say nothing of the sort. There are only a few that maybe, possibly, perhaps could be construed as a trinity, but they all could easily be taken the other way around. I favor the latter since there are tons of crystal clear verses that in no way could be taken as Trinitarian. For sure, all verse have to agree one way or the other.

But in the end, I have to say there are many trinitarians that I greatly admire and are probably a much better servant of God than myself.

Still, it would be nice if trinitarians didn't keep telling my I'm going up in flames! I'd probably have been burnt at the stake by now if I lived a mere 500 or 600 years ago. That's a pretty sobering thought indeed! But luckily I was born in the 20th century where they'd get in a lot of trouble for lighting me up! :)
The last execution of the Inquisitions was on July 26, 1826. So you would have only needed to be born less than 200 years ago.
 

tigger 2

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Here are a few translations that agree.

American Standard Version
“Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

Goodspeed
“Though he possessed the nature of God, he did not grasp at equality with God,"

English Standard Version
"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

Catholic New Jerusalem Bible
"Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped."

New World Translation
"Who although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Add Phil 2:6 to the list of trinity “proof” texts that are at best disputed. Is anyone seeing a pattern yet?
....................................................
There are several NT Greek words in Phil. 2:6 which are misused by many trinitarian scholars.

One of them is harpagmos.

There could be some doubt about the meaning of the word harpagmos if we looked only at the NT Greek Scriptures (since harpagmos occurs only at Phil. 2:6 in the entire New Testament). We would then only have the meaning of the source words for harpagmos to determine its intended meaning.

Even so, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (by trinitarian writer and trinitarian publisher) tells us that harpagmos means “plunder” and that it comes from the source word harpazo which means: “to seize ... catch away, pluck, take (by force).” - #725 & 726, Abingdon Press, 1974 printing.

“725 harpagmós – to seize, especially by an open display of force. See 726 (harpazō).” - HELPS Word-studies, copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

And the New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’ ”

Even the very trinitarian NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, had to admit that harpagmos is “akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force.” - p. 887, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

“have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!

We can easily see this “taken by force” meaning in all the uses of harpazo (the source word for harpagmos) in the New Testament. But since harpagmos itself is used only at Phil. 2:6 in the NT, Bible scholars must go to the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the NT), the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint harpagmos (in its forms of harpagma and harpagmata) is used 16 times according to trinitarian Zondervan’s A Concordance of the Septuagint, p. 32, 1979 printing. And in every case its meaning is the taking of something away from someone by force. Here they are in the Bagster Septuagint as published by Zondervan: Lev. 6:4 “plunder;” Job 29:17 “spoil” (a “prize” taken by force); Ps. 61:10 (Ps. 62:10 in most modern Bibles) “robberies;” Is. 42:22 “prey;” Is. 61:8 “robberies;” Ezek. 18:7 “plunder;” Ezek. 18:12 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:16 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:18 “plunder;” Ezek. 19:3 “prey;” Ezek. 19:6 “take prey;” Ezek. 22:25 “seizing prey;” Ezek. 22:27 “get dishonest gain” (through the use of “harpazo” or “force”); Ezek. 22:29 “robbery;” Ezek. 33:15 “has robbed;” and Malachi 1:13 “torn victims” (compare ASV).

So, in spite of some trinitarians’ reasonings and euphemistic renderings, it is clear from the way it was always used in scripture that harpagmos means either taking something away by force (a verb), or something which has been taken by force (a noun).

Many trinitarian translators, however, either make nonsense out of the meaning of Phil. 2:6 by actually using the proper meaning of “robbery” or “taken by force” without showing God’s clear superiority over Jesus which the context demands, or, instead, making sense of it by choosing a word that doesn’t have the proper meaning of “taking by force.”

For example, the King James Version (KJV) does use “robbery” (a nearly-accurate meaning for harpagmos) but obviously mangles the meaning of the rest of the statement so that it doesn’t even make proper sense: “thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” This is a nonsensical statement even by itself. In context it is even more inappropriate!

Yes, as we have seen above, even in the KJV it is apparent from context that the purpose of this example is to emphasize lowliness of mind, humility: to regard others as better than yourself (vv. 3-5). Paul certainly wouldn’t destroy this example of humility for fellow Christians by saying that Jesus is thinking that it isn’t robbery for him to be equal with the Most High! Besides being a nonsensical statement, it is just the opposite of humility! Instead, to be in harmony with the purpose of Paul’s example, we must find a Jesus who regards God as superior to himself and won’t give even a moment’s thought about attempting to take that most high position himself, but, instead, humbles himself even further.

Trinitarian scholar R. P. Martin, for example, feels the context (especially the obvious contrast of verses 6 and 7) clearly proves that harpagmos in verse 6 means Christ refused to seize equality with God. Emphasizing the fact that this is a contrast with verse 6, verse 7 begins with “but [alla].” In accord with this, he tells us,

“V[erse] 6b states what Christ might have done [or could have attempted to do], i.e. seized equality with God; v. 7 states what he chose to do, i.e. give himself.” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, vol. 3, p. 604.
Examining the Trinity: PHIL 2:6
 
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michaelvpardo

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@michaelvpardo Solemn verse there from Zechariah...
Yes it is. Time after time the prophets spoke of the wicked being removed in judgment. Even the Lord spoke of those who offend being removed in judgment. Some of those verses are even used to support the pre-tribulation rapture story, but I believe I'll be staying for a bit and serving the brethren until His return. I don't understand Christians who see themselves as wicked, but maybe they're right.
 

Rich R

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The last execution of the Inquisitions was on July 26, 1826. So you would have only needed to be born less than 200 years ago.
Wow! I'm luckier than I thought.

You have to wonder about any institution that would do something like that. Doesn't seem the the prime source for truth to say the least.
 

Rich R

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I have the authority of my commission and the word of God.
You've been warned, but God will grant you a sign. Turn from lies and deception and kiss the Son

Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Are you standing behind the word of God that you don't really care about?

You seem to have no concern about whether the word in 1 Timothy is "Theos" or "Os." I know you don't because it would take some time before you could draw a conclusion. I'd venture to say you've put no time into it whatsoever. But, you don't care to put in the work. You prefer tradition. It's the same tradition that would gladly burn me at the stake if it were still allowed.

I have to say that your judgments of me mean absolutely nothing, other than I don't like to see anyone hurt themselves by making such seemingly hateful judgments with no basis other than a doctrine of their own making.

1 John 2:11,

But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.​
 

DavidB

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Wow! I'm luckier than I thought.

You have to wonder about any institution that would do something like that. Doesn't seem the the prime source for truth to say the least.
Someone who claims to be a Christian should think twice about throwing the words heresy or heretic around. The word virtually drips with blood shed by both Catholics and Protestants in the not so distant past. The attitude expressed by those who use it makes me wonder if they would still burn at the stake those who disagree with them regardless of the evidence presented.