Rich R
Well-Known Member
There's not much I can say about such a caustic post other than you've managed to take the "new" math (1+1+1=3 in 1) to a higher level for sure. :)
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BreadOfLife
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There's not much you can say when you invent new doctrines that have nothing to do with Scripture OR Tradition.
With as many things as the so-called "Reformers" got wrong - at the very least, they didn't pervert the very nature of God as YOU and other here have.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
BreadOfLife
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I fully concur..
Joh 1:1 Ἐν En|G1722|Prep|In [the] ἀρχῇ archē|G746|N-DFS|beginning ἦν ēn|G1510|V-IIA-3S|was ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|the Λόγος, Logos|G3056|N-NMS|Word, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|the Λόγος Logos|G3056|N-NMS|Word ἦν ēn|G1510|V-IIA-3S|was πρὸς pros|G4314|Prep|with τὸν ton|G3588|Art-AMS|- Θεόν, Theon|G2316|N-AMS|God, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and Θεὸς Theos|G2316|N-NMS|God ἦν ēn|G1510|V-IIA-3S|was ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|the Λόγος. Logos|G3056|N-NMS|Word.
1) "In the beginning was the Word," (en arche en ho logos) "In the beginning (or origin of time) was (existed) the word," who "became flesh," Joh_1:14; Gal_4:4. Before I was, I was not, but-Jesus the Eternal Word, was (existed) before He "was made flesh," "of a woman." He is called "The Word, of God," Rev_19:13. He existed before all created things, and became their Creator, Gen_1:1; 1Co_8:6; Heb_1:2; Col_1:17.
2) "And the Word was with God," (kai ho logos en pros ton theon) "And the word was (existed) with (in association with) God," before He "became flesh," Joh_1:14; Joh_17:5. Nor did He rob God of any Deity or honor in existing, co-existing with Him from eternity, or originating in eternity, Php_2:6; 2Co_8:9.
3) "And the Word was God." (kai theos en ho logos) "And the word was (existed) in or as God," in essence of deity, in His existence, in His eternal being, before He became His "express image," in the flesh, Heb_1:3; Heb_1:8-10. This "Logos" was God's "only begotten Son," and His "first born Son," from among the dead, Joh_1:14; Joh_3:16; 1Co_15:20; Rom_8:29.
I cannot understand how people do not see the Triune Godhead just in this verse...
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Simple! Because God gave them a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. Example, in Genesis 1:1 where the word God is actually a Hebrew plural word "Elohim" as well as in verses 26-27, where the personal pronouns in verse 26 are plural, yet in verse 27 the personal pronoun is singular.
To God Be The Glory
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And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Forgetting something? Did God converse with the angels?
And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness,.... These words are directed not to the earth, out of which man was made, as consulting with it, and to be assisting in the formation of man, as Moses Gerundensis, and other Jewish writers (f), which is wretchedly stupid; nor to the angels, as the Targum of Jonathan, Jarchi, and others, who are not of God's privy council, nor were concerned in any part of the creation, and much less in the more noble part of it: nor are the words spoken after the manner of kings, as Saadiah, using the plural number as expressive of honour and majesty; since such a way of speaking did not obtain very early, not even till the close of the Old Testament: but they are spoken by God the Father to the Son and Holy Ghost, who were each of them concerned in the creation of all things, and particularly of man: hence we read of divine Creators and Makers in the plural number, Job_35:10 and Philo the Jew acknowledges that these words declare a plurality, and are expressive of others, being co-workers with God in creation (g): and man being the principal part of the creation, and for the sake of whom the world, and all things in it were made, and which being finished, he is introduced into it as into an house ready prepared and furnished for him; a consultation is held among the divine Persons about the formation of him; not because of any difficulty attending it, but as expressive of his honour and dignity; it being proposed he should be made not in the likeness of any of the creatures already made, but as near as could be in the likeness and image of God. The Jews sometimes say, that Adam and Eve were created in the likeness of the holy blessed God, and his Shechinah (h); and they also speak (i) of Adam Kadmon the ancient Adam, as the cause of causes, of whom it is said, "I was as one brought up with him (or an artificer with him), Pro_8:30 and to this ancient Adam he said, "let us make man in our image, after our likeness": and again, "let us make man"; to whom did he say this? the cause of causes said to "`jod', he, `vau', he"; that is, to Jehovah, which is in the midst of the ten numerations. What are the ten numerations? "`aleph', he, `jod', he", that is, אהיה, "I am that I am, Exo_3:14 and he that says let us make, is Jehovah; I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is no God: and three jods ייי testify concerning him, that there is none above him, nor any below him, but he is in the middle:
Makes sense, doesn't it
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר H559 vai·Yo·mer said אֱלֹהִ֔ים H430 E·lo·Him, And God נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה H6213 na·'a·Seh Let us make אָדָ֛ם H120 'a·Dam man בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ H6754 be·tzal·Me·nu in our image כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ H1823 kid·mu·Te·nu; after our likeness וְיִרְדּוּ֩ H7287 ve·yir·Du and let them have dominion בִדְגַ֨ת H1710 vid·Gat over the fish הַיָּ֜ם H3220 hai·Yam of the sea וּבְע֣וֹף H5775 u·ve·'of and over the fowl הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם H8064 hash·sha·Ma·yim, of the air וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ H929 u·vab·be·he·Mah and over the cattle וּבְכָל־ H3605 u·ve·Chol all הָאָ֔רֶץ H776 ha·'A·retz, and over all the earth וּבְכָל־ H3605 u·ve·Chol every הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ H7431 ha·Re·mes and over every creeping thing הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ H7430 ha·ro·Mes that creepeth עַל־ H5921 'al- on הָאָֽרֶץ׃ H776 ha·'A·retz. upon the earth
Right in front of your eyes
What is your problem, having a conversation with yourself?
Ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ “Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου. Note the two Definite Articles...ho Kurios mou KAI ho Theos mou!
Being in the form of God (ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων)
Being. Not the simple είναι to be, but stronger, denoting being which is from the beginning. See on Jas_2:15. It has a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present. Here appropriate to the preincarnate being of Christ, to which the sentence refers. In itself it does not imply eternal, but only prior existence. Form (μορφή). We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape. The word is used in its philosophic sense, to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character. Thus it is distinguished from σχῆμα fashion, comprising that which appeals to the senses and which is changeable. Μορφή form is identified with the essence of a person or thing: σχῆμα fashion is an accident which may change without affecting the form. For the manner in which this difference is developed in the kindred verbs, see on Mat_17:2.
As applied here to God, the word is intended to describe that mode in which the essential being of God expresses itself. We have no word which can convey this meaning, nor is it possible for us to formulate the reality. Form inevitably carries with it to us the idea of shape. It is conceivable that the essential personality of God may express itself in a mode apprehensible by the perception of pure spiritual intelligences; but the mode itself is neither apprehensible nor conceivable by human minds.
This mode of expression, this setting of the divine essence, is not identical with the essence itself, but is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression, answering to it in every particular. It is the perfect expression of a perfect essence. It is not something imposed from without, but something which proceeds from the very depth of the perfect being, and into which that being perfectly unfolds, as light from fire. To say, then, that Christ was in the form of God, is to say that He existed as essentially one with God. The expression of deity through human nature (Php_2:7) thus has its background in the expression of deity as deity in the eternal ages of God's being. Whatever the mode of this expression, it marked the being of Christ in the eternity before creation. As the form of God was identified with the being of God, so Christ, being in the form of God, was identified with the being, nature, and personality of God.
This form, not being identical with the divine essence, but dependent upon it, and necessarily implying it, can be parted with or laid aside. Since Christ is one with God, and therefore pure being, absolute existence, He can exist without the form. This form of God Christ laid aside in His incarnation.
Thought it not robbery to be equal with God (οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ)
Robbery is explained in three ways. 1. A robbing, the act. 2. The thing robbed, a piece of plunder. 3. A prize, a thing to be grasped. Here in the last sense.
Paul does not then say, as A.V., that Christ did not think it robbery to be equal with God: for, 1, that fact goes without. saying in the previous expression, being in the form of God. 2. On this explanation the statement is very awkward. Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it robbery to be equal with God; but, after which we should naturally expect, on the other hand, claimed and asserted equality: whereas the statement is: Christ was in the form of God and did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but (instead) emptied Himself. Christ held fast His assertion of divine dignity, but relinquished it. The antithesis is thus entirely destroyed.
I have tried for one day to pray to the Father alone, bypassing the second Person...doesn't work friend, now I do not condemn you nor judge or excommunicate you, don't do it to me. a plural noun followed by a singular verb makes the plural singular?
Well, I have news for ya, I have found a plural noun followed by two verbs...?
Rich R
Well-Known Member
If that's the case, Jesus or the Holy Spirit apparently didn't get the word. Both pronouns in verse 27 are singular.
Are you aware that there are many spiritual beings in heaven? Angels, principalities, powers, etc. There are several records that say God conferred with those spiritual beings to do things. Job 1 comes to mind, but there are others if you look.
It's reading a lot into the verse to say it proves the trinity. However if it does speak to the trinity, what do you suggest we do with:
1 Cor 8:6,yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
It's not hard to research what the word Elhoim meant to the Ancient Near Eastern people. But it 's probably easier to just stick with tradition, foregoing the diligent work required to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15). It just depends on your comfort level.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I love that section in Philippians, especially 2:5 where it says we are to have the same mind as Christ. So are we to think we're also God? I don't think so. It must be talking about something else. I'd tell you if you want. But if you want to keep believing as you do, I won't bother.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Please read post 141 for numerous references explaining what Elohim means. Here is one example:
“The noted trinitarian scholar, Robert Young, (Young’sAnalytical Concordance and Young’s Literal Translationof the Bible) wrote in his Young’s Concise CriticalCommentary, p. 1,
“Heb. elohim, a plural noun ... it seems to point out a superabundance of qualities in the Divine Being rather than a plurality of persons .... It is found almost invariably accompanied by a verb in the singular number.”
What makes it even clearer is that in Phil 2:4 Paul is talking about humility. We are to have the same humility of Jesus by thinking it is acceptable to think we are equal to God? Again, something is wrong with the translation of verse 6. Is anyone seeing a pattern yet about trinitarian “proof” texts?
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
What seems to dominate this thread are the same heresies that plagued the Church in her first few centuries, or mixtures thereof. Modalism tops the list.
“Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him”
(CCC 2089).
Technically, you have to be Catholic in order to be a heretic.:)
It requires a little discernment and study to identify these heresies and the various wrappers they come in. I've identified the following in this thread alone.
Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries)
Montanism (Late 2nd Century)
Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)
Arianism (4th Century)
The Great Heresies
Most Protestants agree that these are heresies. It's not that hard to compare heretical teachings with some of the posts in this thread.
(CCC 2089).
Technically, you have to be Catholic in order to be a heretic.:)
It requires a little discernment and study to identify these heresies and the various wrappers they come in. I've identified the following in this thread alone.
Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries)
Montanism (Late 2nd Century)
Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)
Arianism (4th Century)
The Great Heresies
Most Protestants agree that these are heresies. It's not that hard to compare heretical teachings with some of the posts in this thread.
So, you clearly don't understand the power of God.
Before there was anything, before creation, before time, the immortal invisible God existed in eternity. He spoke and the Word that He spoke was Jesus Christ coming forth from eternity, and through Christ, He spoke all things into existence. He created the Heavens and the Earth. He created time.
"The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day." Genesis 1:2-5
The Spirit of Christ entered into His creation, entered into time and hovered over "the face" of the waters. He separated the light from the darkness and created the first day.
There's only One God there, but manifested in three persons.
That's how the invisible immortal God who exists in eternity created all things and continues to interact with His creation in the person of His Holy One, Jesus the Christ, Yahavah, and the Spirit of Christ, His Holy Spirit.
It's not rocket science.
"When the answer is simple, God is speaking " - Albert Einstein
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
I have no doubt that I've read more translations from Genesis to Revelation than you ever did, even Satan's New World Translation, the product of the spirit of Antichrist.
Repent or face the fires of hell. You are Anathema Maranatha (accursed at Christ's return), but He hasn't returned yet. You can still come to the light and know Him by faith. Make the good confession and submit to God the Son. Do not be condemned with the children of pride, the children of rebellion, but turn and live.
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