I would say heaven and salvation are two different things. John 3:16 tells us how to be saved, I believe. Matthew 4:17 tells us how to go to heaven.
Where/What Is Heaven
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The Bible is over a thousand pages long and says lots of things. But when the Lord led me to repent of sins I was committing, my life was transformed. That is what I go by.
- Aug 10, 2012
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In the grand scheme of things I don't think there is a difference. Because of 2 Corinthians 5:17-18, and how it implies the Holy Spirit baptism is what reconciles us to God. Which would be something that occurs at the moment of salvation.
In the scriptures I don't see that there are different degrees of being reconciled to God for those who are saved.
I do believe in progressive sanctification, but understand that to be our soul coming into conformity with our new spirit.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Didn't you understand the following by Apostle Paul?
Acts 17:27-29
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.'
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
KJV
God is not in some far off place like you're thinking with your flesh. He is right among us, just in another dimension we cannot see (unless He allows). And He definitely is not of material matter, so the attributes and limitations of this fleshy dimension does not apply to Him, which is what Paul was pointing to in that 29th verse. I realize that some think God is living in the clouds around the earth too, but that's just more of the fleshy thinking like pagans do about God.
They are both true because they are speaking about two different things! If there is a "Kingdom of Heaven" then it stands to reason that there is a place called "Heaven" where this Kingdom has been planned and from where it will become a reality on earth. So what you need to do is go to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (hard copy) and then list all the verses which speak only of Heaven -- a very real and magnificent place.
Matthew 4:17 says, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." When we repent of our sin, we have peace.
It is true that there was Rome and an empire of Rome, and they are not synonymous.
I believe heaven and the resurrection are two different things. Heaven is what our lives become when we repent of our sin (Matthew 4:17). The place we go to when we die is the resurrection.
GEN2REV
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GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Not sure what those verses have to do with heaven per se.
I know that the kingdom of God is sometimes referred to as the kingdom of heaven, but I think the concept of heaven is that of the place we go if we are allowed to live with God in eternity.
The technical Biblical definition of heaven is sky.
One of the oldest aramaic words for the area we call the sky actually translates to sky-waters. Ponder that one a while.
What is heaven? I believe it's the time and place after this physical world is gone, the new heaven (sky) and new earth with God in eternity where all will be wonderful forever.
Where is it? It is right above us.
(At least in a spiritual sense. ;) )
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
And you know this for certain because, well, it's common scientific fact.
The Bible says nothing of the sort, but never let the Truth get in the way of a good scientific certainty.
Jesus and God the father have bodies, Gods spirit is with me, not them in person. I just assumed people understood that.
Resurrection is a miraculous event. It is not a place. So you need to ask yourself "Where do Christians go AFTER the Resurrection?" And since you have just answered without digging further, it means that you did not go through each and every reference to "Heaven" in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. That is essential if you wish to come unto the knowledge of the truth. You can go here to do your search: Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon - EliYah Ministries
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
So you believe heaven is inside of us?
Hmmm.
I know the Holy Spirit dwells inside some of us. I'm not sure how I'd comprehend the concept of heaven being inside of us.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
You know what happens when you assume. ;)
Jesus speaking:
"... If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We (Jesus and the Father) will come unto him, and make our abode with him (live inside of him)."
John 14:23
Jesus and the Father are the Holy Spirit. Jesus says they live inside of those of us they come to as the Holy Spirit. He doesn't say He sends us a piece of His spirit.
God is a Spirit.
John 4:24
Whatever His body is, it is spirit.
No, the resurrection is our life after this life on earth:
[27] There came to him some Sadducees, those who say that there is no resurrection,
[28] and they asked him a question, saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man must take the wife and raise up children for his brother.
[29] Now there were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and died without children;
[30] and the second
[31] and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died.
[32] Afterward the woman also died.
[33] In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife."
[34] And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage;
[35] but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
[36] for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
[37] But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.
[38] Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."
[39] And some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, you have spoken well."
[40] For they no longer dared to ask him any question. Luke 20:27-40 RSV
I believe heaven is what our lives become when we repent of our sin (Matthew 4:17). It is the life the Lord intended for us with no worries. It is eternal.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Well, we agree largely when it comes to striving to obey the Commandments, but I'm of the opinion our lives become a bit more difficult when we do because we become more of a target for the enemy.
The enemy doesn't bother pestering those who are lost, but those who are on the path to salvation are a threat to the kingdom of darkness upon this earth.
Ephesians 6:12
Jesus was repeatedly pestered by the devil. When the devil left Him after His temptation in the desert, the Bible tells us that he left Him until a more opportune time. Proving that even Jesus was never free from spiritual harassment.
Luke 4:13
I believe that is how it works for all of us who resist demonic spiritual attacks. We are liberated from the power of sin over our lives and have the ability to resist the enemy's forces via the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't seem to mean that our lives become heavenly at any point before our physical death. I believe it's all part of our testing and developing of perseverance; God's intent to continue to sanctify us and strengthen our faith more and more until our final breath. James 1:2-4
That's my take.
Repenting of our sin gives us peace of mind. Yes, it also can give us enemies. Who cares?
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Agree with all.
We certainly can't care about having those enemies.
If they're not our enemies, we're doing something very wrong.
