The Biblical Basis for Catholic Distinctives

[Taken]

The better question is: WHERE does the Bible state that everything in history must be contained in the Bible??
Chapter and Verse, please . . . .

LOL....when you find the word Catholic in the Bible, let us know.

 

[Mink57]

LOL....when you find the word Catholic in the Bible, let us know.

And likewise...when you find the word "Protestant" in the Bible, let us know.

 

[Taken]

Fundamentalists have had no answer either for the biblical case for praying to the saints....

If you don't tnink so, then earn your opinion by engaging point by point the evidence I present for praying to saints.

I missed it....Could you re-POST your evidentiary Scripture of any teaching of praying to saints?

Thanks.

 

[Taken]

And likewise...when you find the word "Protestant" in the Bible, let us know.

Okay...

Protest is the root word, found in Scripture.
Protest-ed (ed=suffix), is the past tense of the root word, Protest.
Protest-ant (ant=suffix), is one who is performing the Protest.

Even the LORD Himself Protested against disobedience of Gods Word.
A Cleric agrees to Preach and Teach ACCORDING TO the Word of God.
When Catholic Clerics didn’t, men Protested.

Jer 11:
[6] Then the LORD said unto me, Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them.
[7] For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

Your turn. Catholic in Scripture?

 

[Christian Believer]

Much of the fundamentalist screed directed against Catholics here consists of mindless unbiblical generalizations. These fundamentalists lack the integrity to actually study the biblical basis for Catholic doctrinal distinctives and practices. Informed Catholics might justifiably issue this challenge, 'Let's get into the Word!" This thread will enumerate and methodically explore the biblical basis for several Catholic distinctives so that readers might understand why some evangelicals in my town have fled their evangelical churches to find God real in our local Catholic church.

My thread will initially focus on these 9 Catholic distinctives:
(1) priestly confession (2) the priestly pronouncement of absolution (3) prayer to saints
(4) the Catholic perspective on holy relics (5) Catholic use of holy water (6) Purgatory
(7) Transubstantiation (8) the Catholic doctrine of justification (9) the Catholic view of the authority of Scripture and tradition

To avoid incoherent chaos, please limit your discussion to the distinctive currently under discussion. So let's begin.

(1) PRIESTLY CONFESSION
"
Confess your sins TO ONE ANOTHER...so that you may be healed (James 5:16)."

Most evangelicals imagine that once they get their ticket punched to Heaven, post-baptismal sin is a minor issue because it is automatically forgiven by virtue of God's grace. So they presumptuously cheapen God's grace by ignoring His command to regularly confess their sins not just to God, but to each other. If they confess their sins at all, they do so in a cursory, vague, and generalized manner like, "Lord, forgive me all my sins." Unlike Catholics, they are unwilling to do the hard work of discerning introspection to penetrate their defense mechanisms and unearth the hidden sins they actually need to confess. Thus, they make a mockery of repentance! By contrast, Catholics are willing to air their dirty linen by confessing embarrassing sins to a priest. This is important because of the need for confidentiality and the need for a mature and discerning listening ear who can offer constructive feedback. In a local restaurant some time ago, I overheard 2 Catholics who had just returned from confession. They were discussing a book their priest had given them about how to recognize unknown sins and sins of omission. I felt like I was in the presence of true saints.

In the 19th century, Methodists required weekly confession of sins to each other in class meetings. As a result, in 1870 Methodist spirituality was so powerful that 40% of all Americans were Methodist! Then around 1900, they were no longer willing to air their dirty linen and Methodism has endured a slow steady decline ever since.

Hello @Berserk

My perspective.

First a note. I'm not only targeting the Catholic church. I'm actually exposing the rest of the denominations much worse. Later look at my other post here. Please read carefully; there is a lot of details here, with strong biblical references in the provided links.

I'm a fair Christian, non-denominational. So I'll note the good things about the Catholic church:

• They got the Nicene Creed right.
• The Eucharist is good, as a symbolic re-enactment of the last supper. Jesus did say for us to eat His flesh and drink His blood using those terms verbatim, in the 2nd half of John Chapter 6.

Other than these 2 items above, everything else they do is problematic! And even blasphemous!! The Catholic church and their side-kick the Orthodox church teachings, for hundreds of years, have been mostly unbiblical. This is not just bashing. Please look close at these:

• In Catholic churches, there's little to no spiritual maturity. The Catholic church is still running with the same original antiquated plan since the 3rd century: The church (its priests), supposedly study the Bible, then turn around and teach it to the people who are illiterate and can't read or understand the difficulty of the Bible for themselves." Maybe this was acceptable in 325AD, but now in 2022CE/AD, I think we can do it ourselves and don't need bishops anymore. We have no excuse not to, except laziness.

• The Catholic church does not encourage people to read the Bible! Many Catholic people actually "hate" studying the Bible, for these confessed reasons: "Oh no, Protestants do that; we don't!"; "We have priests and bishops to do it for us, and we trust them."

• The Catholic church over the years has been riddled with abuse scandals, almost daily stories in the news, here's today's.

• The church concentrates only on the new-testament Bible, and treats the old-testament scripture as myths. Even though Jesus referenced a lot of old-testament verses.

• The usual Catholic sermon Bible reading time is nice stories from the new-testament. Followed by a message from the priest about "let's all be good and nice". The rest of the sermon is repeating the same stand up and sit down and smell incense.

• Purgatory; where is that in the Bible?

• The ascension of Mary into heaven became Catholic doctrine in 1950, officially declared by Pope Pius XII. Continued here.

• Mary the mother of God, as in higher level than God!

• The pope is constantly in the news making some political statements, announcing "sweeping reforms", changing the canon law, and taking the church further away from God. These people at the Vatican since the 4th century cannot possibly be the ones that Jesus meant to hand the church to. It was true in the early church days when He handed it to His disciples who witnessed His miracles, and were truly filled with the Holy Spirit. But it's been going downhill since, as human nature takes over.

• So many Catholic people are also praying to a variety of humans they call "saints". Some get on their knees before the statue of so and so, and others lay face down at the feet of another. The Catholic church may claim this is not their teaching. Well the church must be doing something wrong; and certainly not doing anything to stop it. The church is careful not to upset people, but is ok with upsetting God!
• Bankers estimate the Vatican's wealth between $10 billion and $15 billion and some think it's $trillions.
• Catholic churches around the world send money to the Vatican! It's an organized spiritual mafia. Sure the Vatican has charity programs. Bankers estimate those to be "a drop in the bucket" compared to their wealth. Btw, if you check public records, you'll find that the Vatican's wealth doubled shortly after their 1950 official announcement of Mary's ascension to heaven!
• The church caters to people. It’s about what people like to hear. Not many churches are truly seeking God.

• Also take a look at this! It'll make you smile.
  

 

[covenantee]

As I alreaduy showed you guys - the Church was called "The Catholic Church" by the end of the FIRSY century.

This is a simple fact of history and an unpleasant one for Protestants. However - YOUR Protestant Fathers didn't argue against this fact. They simply dicorced themselves from what they felt had been corrupted, forgetting the promise of Jesus (Matt. 16:18).

As I stated before - He is NOT the God of Confusion.
The Protestant Rebellion is the modern day Tower of Babel with uts tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based on the interpretational whims of their human founders.

- Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
- Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
- Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
- Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
- Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
- Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
- Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
- Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
- Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
- Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
- Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on . . .

This makes the Tower of Babel look like a well-oiled machine . . .

Rather than exercising God-given freedom of choice, Catholics would rather relegate that task to a fallible pope.

Matthew 15:14
...If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[covenantee]

Catholic churches around the world send money to the Vatican! It's an organized spiritual mafia. Sure the Vatican has charity programs. Bankers estimate those to be "a drop in the bucket" compared to their wealth

I consider it more than interesting that the Vatican and the Mafia share the same domicile.

 

[Illuminator]

Hello @Berserk

My perspective.

First a note. I'm not only targeting the Catholic church. I'm actually exposing the rest of the denominations much worse. Later look at my other post here. Please read carefully; there is a lot of details here, with strong biblical references in the provided links.

I'm a fair Christian, non-denominational. So I'll note the good things about the Catholic church:

• They got the Nicene Creed right.
• The Eucharist is good, as a symbolic re-enactment of the last supper. Jesus did say for us to eat His flesh and drink His blood using those terms verbatim, in the 2nd half of John Chapter 6.

Other than these 2 items above, everything else they do is problematic! And even blasphemous!! The Catholic church and their side-kick the Orthodox church teachings, for hundreds of years, have been mostly unbiblical. This is not just bashing. Please look close at these:

• In Catholic churches, there's little to no spiritual maturity. The Catholic church is still running with the same original antiquated plan since the 3rd century: The church (its priests), supposedly study the Bible, then turn around and teach it to the people who are illiterate and can't read or understand the difficulty of the Bible for themselves." Maybe this was acceptable in 325AD, but now in 2022CE/AD, I think we can do it ourselves and don't need bishops anymore. We have no excuse not to, except laziness.

• The Catholic church does not encourage people to read the Bible! Many Catholic people actually "hate" studying the Bible, for these confessed reasons: "Oh no, Protestants do that; we don't!"; "We have priests and bishops to do it for us, and we trust them."

• The Catholic church over the years has been riddled with abuse scandals, almost daily stories in the news, here's today's.

• The church concentrates only on the new-testament Bible, and treats the old-testament scripture as myths. Even though Jesus referenced a lot of old-testament verses.

• The usual Catholic sermon Bible reading time is nice stories from the new-testament. Followed by a message from the priest about "let's all be good and nice". The rest of the sermon is repeating the same stand up and sit down and smell incense.

• Purgatory; where is that in the Bible?

• The ascension of Mary into heaven became Catholic doctrine in 1950, officially declared by Pope Pius XII. Continued here.

• Mary the mother of God, as in higher level than God!

• The pope is constantly in the news making some political statements, announcing "sweeping reforms", changing the canon law, and taking the church further away from God. These people at the Vatican since the 4th century cannot possibly be the ones that Jesus meant to hand the church to. It was true in the early church days when He handed it to His disciples who witnessed His miracles, and were truly filled with the Holy Spirit. But it's been going downhill since, as human nature takes over.

• So many Catholic people are also praying to a variety of humans they call "saints". Some get on their knees before the statue of so and so, and others lay face down at the feet of another. The Catholic church may claim this is not their teaching. Well the church must be doing something wrong; and certainly not doing anything to stop it. The church is careful not to upset people, but is ok with upsetting God!
• Bankers estimate the Vatican's wealth between $10 billion and $15 billion and some think it's $trillions.
• Catholic churches around the world send money to the Vatican! It's an organized spiritual mafia. Sure the Vatican has charity programs. Bankers estimate those to be "a drop in the bucket" compared to their wealth. Btw, if you check public records, you'll find that the Vatican's wealth doubled shortly after their 1950 official announcement of Mary's ascension to heaven!
• The church caters to people. It’s about what people like to hear. Not many churches are truly seeking God.

• Also take a look at this! It'll make you smile.

This hate rant is off topic. No sources of information is given. It looks like your garden variety of professional liars, a mix of Jack Chick, Dave Hunt, Matt Slick, and legions of others.
Anti-Catholicism (Index Page for Apologist Dave Armstrong)

 

[Illuminator]

I consider it more than interesting that the Vatican and the Mafia share the same domicile.

Rather than exercising God-given freedom of choice, Catholics would rather relegate that task to a fallible pope.

Matthew 15:14
...If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Hurling stupid insults based on prejudice and ignorance is not discussion. It's persecution. You guys spend a lot of time on end time persecution while you inflict it on Catholics. Pope Francis is not blind, and he is fallible on his own. You won't understand that. The right of the laity to question their bishops is protected by canon law. If you cannot think for yourself, you cannot be a Catholic. "Freedom of choice" must have limits or its not freedom.

 

[Berserk]

As an ex-theology professor (evangelical in beliefs) at a Catholic university, I'm in a good position to sum up the debate in this thread.
(1) The Catholics try in vain to get the fundamentalists to react to God's Word, but the fundamentalists studiously avoid this with insults and unsubstantianted fundamentalist talking points. Now I understand why evangelicals have been leaving their churches in my town to find God real in our local Catholic church.
(2) Unlike the Catholics here, the Fundamentalists are virtually historically illiterate about early church history after the apostolic church. So they take false comfort in the fact that the NT church never endorsed the ministerial priesthood. Thus, they display their historical ignorance
(a) because "priest" is just a term that was applied to leaders formerly known as "elders" and "bishops," who performed the same function as priests
(b) and because our fundamentalists are oblivious to accurate lists of bishops appoint from the time of Peter well into the 4th century, an apostolic succession that ensured doctrinal continuity.
(3) Fundamentalists here have been repeatedly challenged in this thread to account for Peter's status as the Rock foundation of Christ's church uniquely blessed with the power of the keys and the authority to hear confession and forgiven sins and can only respond (a) by mindless denials and (b) by invoking other biblical texts that they unwittingly hope can bypass Jesus' clear word usage and teaching.
Is it actually necessary to repost the detailed points of my threads before which fundamentalist have frozen like Bambi in the headlights?

 

[Illuminator]

Hello @Berserk

My perspective.

First a note. I'm not only targeting the Catholic church. I'm actually exposing the rest of the denominations much worse. Later look at my other post here. Please read carefully; there is a lot of details here, with strong biblical references in the provided links.

I'm a fair Christian, non-denominational. So I'll note the good things about the Catholic church:
They got the Nicene Creed right.

But the rest of the Council of Nicae got it wrong??? That makes no sense! It's impossible to attain eternal life with symbols, that's the only part you got wrong. There is nothing "fair" about lies and falsehoods, and refuting line by line is a waste of time. Please keep your false fundie canards to a minimum of 2 so they can be discussed in a civil manner.

 

[Mink57]

Okay...

Protest is the root word, found in Scripture.
Protest-ed (ed=suffix), is the past tense of the root word, Protest.
Protest-ant (ant=suffix), is one who is performing the Protest.

Even the LORD Himself Protested against disobedience of Gods Word.
A Cleric agrees to Preach and Teach ACCORDING TO the Word of God.
When Catholic Clerics didn’t, men Protested.

Jer 11:
[6] Then the LORD said unto me, Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them.
[7] For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

Your turn. Catholic in Scripture?

While the word "protest" is in scripture, the word "Protestant" is not.

Plus, the verse you're using to defend your case (Jer 11:7) seems to be unique only to the KJV. Most other versions use the word "warn" or "testify"; not "protest".

 

[covenantee]

Hurling stupid insults based on prejudice and ignorance is not discussion. It's persecution. You guys spend a lot of time on end time persecution while you inflict it on Catholics. Pope Francis is not blind, and he is fallible on his own. You won't understand that. The right of the laity to question their bishops is protected by canon law. If you cannot think for yourself, you cannot be a Catholic. "Freedom of choice" must have limits or its not freedom.

It's persecution.

Robert Bellarmine:
"almost infinite numbers were either burned or otherwise killed" by the Catholic Church [Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei Adversus Hujus Temporis Haereticos (Disputations about the Controversies of the Christian faith Against the Heretics of this Time), Tom. ii, Lib. III, cap. XXII].

Above excerpted from:
Estimates of the Number Killed by the Papacy in the Middle Ages and Later (worthyofpraise.org)

 

[covenantee]

If you cannot think for yourself, you cannot be a Catholic.

The Reformers thought for themselves.

They ceased to be Catholic.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL....when you find the word Catholic in the Bible, let us know.

I've already shown this to you, but just for grins - here it is again . . .

Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:
“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “ekklesia katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH
καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely
"Εκκλησια Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Ummmm - where is the word, "Protestant" in Scripture?
"Lutheran"?
"Non-Denominational"?
"Revival"?
Having trouble finding yhose??

Can you show me where the Bible mentions the word, "Bible" - or the list of Books that beliongs in it?
I didn't think so . . .

While you're letting that sink in - show me where the Bible mentions ANY of the followoing false Protestant ideas: by name . . .
"Sola Scriptura"?
"Sola Fide"?
"Accepting Christ as 'personal Lord and Savior'"?
"Limited Atonement"?
"Altar Call"?
"Eternal Security"?
"Pre-Millennial"?

Happy hunting . . .

 

[Christian Believer]

https://www.realbiblestudy.org/we-are-christians

But the rest of the Council of Nicae got it wrong??? That makes no sense! It's impossible to attain eternal life with symbols, that's the only part you got wrong. There is nothing "fair" about lies and falsehoods, and refuting line by line is a waste of time. Please keep your false fundie canards to a minimum of 2 so they can be discussed in a civil manner.

Hello @Illuminator,
I apologize if I offended you personally; that was not my intention. I love God, and I love all people. I do strive to look at all this in a generic way, not with an “us and them” attitude. I am truly seeking God as Jesus advised us in the Sermon on the Mount. And truly hope that all people on earth see clearly. This is my objective. It is not to single out and target the Catholic Church. I have actually targeted all other denominations and exposed their deficiencies just as harshly.

I humbly invite you to look at my post here, it has all the biblical references you need: Mary Mother of God?

And exposing the rest of the denominations here: We Are Christians

Good day!

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Reformers thought for themselves.
They ceased to be Catholic.

They never "stopped" being Catholic.
They became apostate Catholics.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rather than exercising God-given freedom of choice, Catholics would rather relegate that task to a fallible pope.

Matthew 15:14
...If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Yell me - which part of the following verses do you have trouble understanding?
Let me know - and we'll go from there . . .

Matt. 16:18-19
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."


So, beware . . .
Eph.5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

 

[Christian Believer]

Yell me - which part of the following verses do you have trouble understanding?
Let me know - and we'll go from there . . .

Matt. 16:18-19
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."


So, beware . . .
Eph.5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Hello @BreadOfLife

I was born and raised Catholic. And I also did a lot of seeking God in the scriptures on my own later in life. I am now 70, and have come to see many things much clearer thanks to the wisdom God gave me. I am now non-denominational; simply an unbiased Christian. I do expose deficiencies in both Protestants and Catholics.

I have all the answers to your references, also with my Bible references. I detailed it all in my post here: Mary the Mother of God

And my post exposing other denominations here: We Are Christians

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hello @BreadOfLife

I was born and raised Catholic. And I also did a lot of seeking God in the scriptures on my own later in life. I am now 70, and have come to see many things much clearer thanks to the wisdom God gave me. I am now non-denominational; simply an unbiased Christian. I do expose deficiencies in both Protestants and Catholics.

I have all the answers to your references, also with my Bible references. I detailed it all in my post here: Mary the Mother of God

And my post exposing other denominations here: We Are Christians

Thanks for your reply.
I also have a blog - and an article with the SAME Title: Mary, The Mother of God (wuthout the "?"):
Catholic Faith Facts: Mary, the Mother of God

However, for the sake of forum conversation - can you just reply to the points that you disagree with as we converse? It makes it a LOT easier than havoing to read 2 very LONG articles.

Thanks agian.