Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

[GEN2REV]

True that God is One, however, it is also True that there are Three distinct Persons Who are equally called God in the Holy Bible. It is not "babbling" to expound what God has already revealed to us clearly in the Bible. It is very edifying!

The Bible makes no direct reference to them being 3 distinct persons whatsoever.

It fully supports the concept that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God/Jesus.

Not at all a 3rd, individual, distinct person.

That is a man-made concept.

The Holy Spirit is what assists us to obey God. It can only do that because it once existed within Christ throughout His lifetime and was primed to obey all of God's Commandments - just as He fully accomplished.
John 15:10

It is not a separate individual entity to itself. If you have the Holy Spirit, you have Christ's Spirit residing within you. Christ Himself is with you; not His buddy the holy spirit.

ETA: God is a Spirit. Is He not?
John 4:24

He doesn't have a really close friend/fam. member who happens to be a spirit.

He IS that Spirit.

God resides in you if you have the Holy Spirit.
John 14:23

 

[michaelvpardo]

The "trinity" is One God manifest in three persons, not three persons manifest in One God. The first is called monotheism, the latter is pluralism.

Jesus Christ is the body of God upon the Earth, the Holy Spirit is the mind of God upon the Earth, and the Father is the invisible immortal God (which doesn't make Jesus or the Holy Spirit less God.) They are One God who is self existent and eternal. They are the creator and since they are One and indivisible, that's the equivalent of saying He is the creator.

We exist in one body, but suppose we had three bodies and one mind, that all functioned simultaneously. Would that make us 3 persons or would we still be just one?
It's not how we exist so it's hard to understand, but it isn't rocket science either.

Put another way, how do we receive the mind of Christ?
Why is the church the body of Christ?
How is Jesus connected to the Father and How are we connected to Christ?

I'm pretty sure that the scriptures have the answers, but how can you receive His truth without that connection?

Most of our arguments within the body that has His Spirit are over God's existence in time, but time is part of Creation. So, the Father as God existed before creation, Jesus as God existed before creation, the Holy Spirit as God, existed before creation, but God didn't have a physical body until the birth of His Son:

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me. Hebrews 10:5

And the Holy Spirit couldn't interact with creation until after creation began:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Genesis 1:1-2

The cults insist on dividing God in order to make Jesus less than God. God is not divided but manifest in three persons, the Son reveals the Father, the Holy Spirit gives witness to the Son, and the Father glorifies Himself in the Son.

8 I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images. Isaiah 42:8
You either believe this verse and that Jesus is fully God, or you don't believe it or in Him.

 

[ScottA]

In the Book of Isaiah, chapter 48, in verses 16, in its context, we have the Speaker Who is clearly Yahweh, He says, "Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I: and now 'ădônây Yahweh hath sent Me, and His Spirit"

The Speaker, Who is clearly not Isaiah, or any other human being, says:

in verse 3, “I have declared the former things from the beginning”, and verse 5, “I have even from the beginning declared it to you”. In verse 12 and 13 the Speaker says, “Listen to Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He, I am the First, I also am the Last. My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand spread out the heavens”. In verse 15 we read, “I, even I have spoken, yes, and I have called him”. In the very next verse, we read, “Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am YHWH your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go”.

It can only be that Jesus Christ is the Speaker here, as He says that "'ădônây Yahweh hath sent Me". But He is Himself also Yahweh! Then we have the sending of "the Holy Spirit". It is also clear that there are Three distinct Persons here.

Like John 1:1, were Jesus Christ Who isn "the Word", is said to be "WITH God [the Father]", which makes Him DISTINCT, and yet at the same time it says, "and the Word was God", though not the same God as previously mentioned!

Yes, I know, I wasn't trying to say different.

What I was trying to say is not those same words which have been written as things have unfolded, but rather explain things being folded up again. Therefore, I began with us not knowing the Son until He was sent, and likewise not knowing the Holy Spirit until He was sent. That was God unpacking knowledge of Himself, even using different names and Caricatures just as He has done with us created in His image. This is and has been God's method of revelation, the breaking down of every detail in a way that children (His) can understand. But He is not building a house divided. On the contrary, the baby steps that He insisted upon for our elementary understanding as immature, is not the whole image.

What I was leading to is the thing He is also leading to--which is the One, not just the Beginning, but also the End. We are coming to that Oneness where we are no more given or taken in marriage, but become One. He has unpacked, but now is repacking, and with it is a greater revelation of the identity of God and of men. It was the prayer of Christ that we be One as they are One. Repacking. But do not think that I am deviating from the scriptures--it is He who has begun the work (John 17:20-22). Even so, He had many more things to say to us, but we were not able to bear it all when He first came (John 16:12).

So then, we can know it as I have described it--before we die, while we are alive in the Spirit but remain in the world, or we can choose to remain children unable to bear those "many more things" He had to say. But it would be a mistake to think it faithful to remain, for Paul preached to "press on" "leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ" two thousand years ago. That is not faith.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

The Bible makes no direct reference to them being 3 distinct persons whatsoever.

It fully supports the concept that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God/Jesus.

Not at all a 3rd, individual, distinct person.

That is a man-made concept.

The Holy Spirit is what assists us to obey God. It can only do that because it once existed within Christ throughout His lifetime and was primed to obey all of God's Commandments - just as He fully accomplished.
John 15:10

It is not a separate individual entity to itself. If you have the Holy Spirit, you have Christ's Spirit residing within you. Christ Himself is with you; not His buddy the holy spirit.

ETA: God is a Spirit. Is He not?
John 4:24

He doesn't have a really close friend/fam. member who happens to be a spirit.

He IS that Spirit.

God resides in you if you have the Holy Spirit.
John 14:23

There is clear distinction between the Persons in the Godhead (θειότης, Divine Nature, Romans 1:20), as can be seen from verses like John 1:1, where "the Word", Who is Jesus Christ, is said to be "πρὸς God", that is, "near to", which is the same as "κόλπος" (Bosom) in verse 18, where there are Two distinct Persons Who are equally God.

In John 15:26, Jesus says, "“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me". Here the word "from", is "παρὰ", which is "along side", the Father. Jesus is the Sender here, and He sends the Holy Spirit Who is "at the side of" the Father. Clear distinction of Persons.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes, I know, I wasn't trying to say different.

What I was trying to say is not those same words which have been written as things have unfolded, but rather explain things being folded up again. Therefore, I began with us not knowing the Son until He was sent, and likewise not knowing the Holy Spirit until He was sent. That was God unpacking knowledge of Himself, even using different names and Caricatures just as He has done with us created in His image. This is and has been God's method of revelation, the breaking down of every detail in a way that children (His) can understand. But He is not building a house divided. On the contrary, the baby steps that He insisted upon for our elementary understanding as immature, is not the whole image.

What I was leading to is the thing He is also leading to--which is the One, not just the Beginning, but also the End. We are coming to that Oneness where we are no more given or taken in marriage, but become One. He has unpacked, but now is repacking, and with it is a greater revelation of the identity of God and of men. It was the prayer of Christ that we be One as they are One. Repacking. But do not think that I am deviating from the scriptures--it is He who has begun the work (John 17:20-22). Even so, He had many more things to say to us, but we were not able to bear it all when He first came (John 16:12).

So then, we can know it as I have described it--before we die, while we are alive in the Spirit but remain in the world, or we can choose to remain children unable to bear those "many more things" He had to say. But it would be a mistake to think it faithful to remain, for Paul preached to "press on" "leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ" two thousand years ago. That is not faith.

you speak of "Oneness", are you referring to the "Godhead" as being "Unipersonal"?

 

[GEN2REV]

There is clear distinction between the Persons in the Godhead (θειότης, Divine Nature, Romans 1:20), as can be seen from verses like John 1:1, where "the Word", Who is Jesus Christ, is said to be "πρὸς God", that is, "near to", which is the same as "κόλπος" (Bosom) in verse 18, where there are Two distinct Persons Who are equally God.

In John 15:26, Jesus says, "“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me". Here the word "from", is "παρὰ", which is "along side", the Father. Jesus is the Sender here, and He sends the Holy Spirit Who is "at the side of" the Father. Clear distinction of Persons.

God disagrees with you.

"... I am the First and I am the Last; and beside Me there is no God. ... Is there a God beside Me? yea, there is no (other) God; I know not any."
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 44:8
"I am the Lord and there is none else, there is no God beside Me: ... thou hast not known Me:"
Isaiah 45:5

That's a pretty big deal.

(The earliest, and most accurate, translations do not put an 's' at the end of beside. That is of crucial importance.)

 

[DavidB]

Jesus Christ IS The Creator. He is eternal and uncreated as are the Father and Holy Spirit.

And yet the verse being discussed calls him the beginning of creation.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And yet the verse being discussed calls him the beginning of creation.

Which verse?

 

[DavidB]

Which verse?

Rev 3:14

 

[Jim B]

Rev 3:14

Here is the NET translator's note on that verse (with my emphasis added): Or “the beginning of God’s creation”; or “the ruler of God’s creation.” From a linguistic standpoint all three meanings for ἀρχή (archē) are possible. The term is well attested in both LXX (Gen 40:13, 21; 41:13) and intertestamental Jewish literature (2 Macc 4:10, 50) as meaning “ruler, authority” (BDAG 138 s.v. 6). Some have connected this passage to Paul’s statements in Col 1:15, 18 which describe Christ as ἀρχή and πρωτότοκος (prōtotokos; e.g., see R. H. Mounce, Revelation [NICNT], 124) but the term ἀρχή has been understood as either “beginning” or “ruler” in that passage as well. The most compelling connection is to be found in the prologue to John’s Gospel (1:2-4) where the λόγος (logos) is said to be “in the beginning (ἀρχή) with God,” a temporal reference connected with creation, and then v. 3 states that “all things were made through him.” The connection with the original creation suggests the meaning “originator” for ἀρχή here. BDAG 138 s.v. 3 gives the meaning “the first cause” for the word in Rev 3:14, a term that is too philosophical for the general reader, so the translation “originator” was used instead. BDAG also notes, “but the mng. beginning = ‘first created’ is linguistically probable (s. above 1b and Job 40:19; also CBurney, Christ as the ᾿Αρχή of Creation: JTS 27, 1926, 160-77).” Such a meaning is unlikely here, however, since the connections described above are much more probable.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

God disagrees with you.

"... I am the First and I am the Last; and beside Me there is no God. ... Is there a God beside Me? yea, there is no (other) God; I know not any."
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 44:8
"I am the Lord and there is none else, there is no God beside Me: ... thou hast not known Me:"
Isaiah 45:5

That's a pretty big deal.

(The earliest, and most accurate, translations do not put an 's' at the end of beside. That is of crucial importance.)

what does verses like Isaiah 43:11 mean? "“I, even I, am Yahweh, And there is no Savior besides Me". We know from the New Testament, that Jesus Christ IS The Saviour of the world, in many verses!

And Isaiah 45:18, "
For thus says Yahweh, who created the heavens He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited, I am the Lord, and there is none else" Jesus Christ IS LORD!

Does these verses mean that the Father is not Saviour or Lord?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Rev 3:14

ἀρχή used here by Jesus Christ is "the Beginner of Creation".

You will see from Hebrews 1:10-12, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ,

"And, "You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail"

These words are taken from Psalm 102:24-27, where they are used for Elohim as the CREATOR

"I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall become old like a garment; like a robe You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are He, and Your years shall have no end"

This is the Highest Testimony of all, it is from God the Father to Jesus Christ as CREATOR!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Here is the NET translator's note on that verse (with my emphasis added): Or “the beginning of God’s creation”; or “the ruler of God’s creation.” From a linguistic standpoint all three meanings for ἀρχή (archē) are possible. The term is well attested in both LXX (Gen 40:13, 21; 41:13) and intertestamental Jewish literature (2 Macc 4:10, 50) as meaning “ruler, authority” (BDAG 138 s.v. 6). Some have connected this passage to Paul’s statements in Col 1:15, 18 which describe Christ as ἀρχή and πρωτότοκος (prōtotokos; e.g., see R. H. Mounce, Revelation [NICNT], 124) but the term ἀρχή has been understood as either “beginning” or “ruler” in that passage as well. The most compelling connection is to be found in the prologue to John’s Gospel (1:2-4) where the λόγος (logos) is said to be “in the beginning (ἀρχή) with God,” a temporal reference connected with creation, and then v. 3 states that “all things were made through him.” The connection with the original creation suggests the meaning “originator” for ἀρχή here. BDAG 138 s.v. 3 gives the meaning “the first cause” for the word in Rev 3:14, a term that is too philosophical for the general reader, so the translation “originator” was used instead. BDAG also notes, “but the mng. beginning = ‘first created’ is linguistically probable (s. above 1b and Job 40:19; also CBurney, Christ as the ᾿Αρχή of Creation: JTS 27, 1926, 160-77).” Such a meaning is unlikely here, however, since the connections described above are much more probable.

BDAG and Burney are wrong, as this is not possible in this verse, the context, and the Teaching of the Bible. Even to suggest this is a grave error in their judgement!

CHRIST AS THE ΑΡΧΗ OF CREATION. (Prov. viii 22, Col. i 15-18, Rev. iii 14.) on JSTOR

 

[Jim B]

BDAG and Burney are wrong, as this is not possible in this verse, the context, and the Teaching of the Bible. Even to suggest this is a grave error in their judgement!

CHRIST AS THE ΑΡΧΗ OF CREATION. (Prov. viii 22, Col. i 15-18, Rev. iii 14.) on JSTOR

And your translation qualifications are ..?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And your translation qualifications are ..?

35 years of New Testament and classic Greek

Read my OP and my other threads and show where my Greek is wrong

 

[Jim B]

35 years of New Testament and classic Greek

Read my OP and my other threads and show where my Greek is wrong

I'm not interested. I spent enough years in academia to know that scholars often disagree with each other. I believe that BDAG and Burney are right and make more sense than you when all of Scripture is considered.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I'm not interested. I spent enough years in academia to know that scholars often disagree with each other. I believe that BDAG and Burney are right and make more sense than you when all of Scripture is considered.

If you are not interested then why comment on my article?

And what is your level of Greek knowledge

 

[Jim B]

If you are not interested then why comment on my article?

And what is your level of Greek knowledge

What is it about "I'm not interested" that you don't understand? Again, I am not interested.

God has revealed His truth to me a) in His Word and b) by His Spirit. Read the New Testament for many examples of people who thought that they knew Scripture, yet were wrong in their understanding.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

What is it about "I'm not interested" that you don't understand? Again, I am not interested.

God has revealed His truth to me a) in His Word and b) by His Spirit. Read the New Testament for many examples of people who thought that they knew Scripture, yet were wrong in their understanding.

God does not contradict His Word!

 

[Jim B]

God does not contradict His Word!

Of course not. I don't see your point unless you're claiming to be God.