Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

[Aunty Jane]

How can the Father and the Son be one and the same Person, when Scripture is clear that they are distinct?

Yes, very distinctly separate entities, working together in creation but only one is The Almighty.
The Father is the Creator, who used the agency of his son to fashion all that exists, using God's powerful spirit. There is no trinity there, just the three necessary components who are responsible for creation. Creation came "through" the son, not "from" him.

According to Christendom’s trinity, there are three gods....”God the Father”....”God the Son”...and “God the Holy Spirit”.....this is polytheism in direct opposition to the Jewish Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4....so not what Jesus would have taught at all. He was born a Jew, and died a Jew.

Jesus never once claimed to be God. If there is a direct statement by either Yahweh or Jesus stating that they are both equally “God” along with the holy spirit.....then please provide it.

Like John 1:1, where "καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν", can only mean, "and the Word was in the presence of God", and then "Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος", "the Word was God". The use of the Greek preposition "πρὸς" shows distinction, and cannot mean "one and the same Person".

Indeed, there is not one scripture where that is even implied.

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos." (Mounce Interlinear)

How is God "with" himself? How did God pray to himself....or how did the Father know things that the son did not?

Use of the definite article (ho/the) in John 1:1 determines who is “ho theos” (the God) and who is just “theos” (a god) in that verse. One is the Almighty and the other is a divine personage but is not “ho theos”. One little word but with a whole lot of meaning.

IOW, that scripture if it was interpreted correctly tells a completely different story to what most translations present.
The correct translation should read..
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God (Yahweh) and the Word was divine.”

The Greeks had many gods, all of whom had names to identify them. But because the Jews had ceased uttering the divine name, this nameless “Lord” was difficult to point out in the Greek definition of a god. (theos) (Which simply identifies a “mighty or powerful one” or in the Jewish understanding can be someone imbued with divine authority.) The "Lord" Yahweh and the "Lord" Jesus somehow became one and the same person.....only later were they joined by the holy spirit to become a trinity.....over 300 years after Jesus died.

When Jesus was being accused of blasphemy by the Jews for claiming that he was God’s son, he said that Yahweh himself called the judges in Israel “gods” because they ruled with his Father’s authority. (John 10:31-36) All he ever said was that he was God’s son...never did he claim to be God, otherwise he would have been guilty of blasphemy and the Jews could have legally put him to death as a blasphemer.....but Jesus had to die as an innocent man. If the apostles had accepted Jesus as God incarnate, then they too would have been guilty of breaking God's law, putting other 'gods' in the Father's place. (Exodus 20:3) There was no trinity among the first Christians, all of whom were Jewish.

The word “god” in both Hebrew and Greek has more than one meaning that seems to be ignored when the trinity is being promoted. There is no trinity in the Bible, no matter how much it is forced into scripture by inference. There is not a single direct statement that says "Jesus is Almighty God", and many verses that prove that this is impossible.

At Revelation 3:12 e.g. Jesus, who was in heaven at the time he gave John the Revelation, still calls his Father “my God” four times in this one verse. How does one equal part of God worship another part of himself in heaven?
And if John also said that “no one has seen God at any time”....how many people saw Jesus? (John 1:18) Thousands.

Also, there are passages where God SENDS Jesus Christ, which is always speaking about another Person.

Yes, like John 17:3....there Jesus acknowledges that his Father is “the only true God” without including himself, and that he was “sent” by him. Jesus is also called God’s “holy servant”. (Acts 4:30)

So, if there are three entities, who can all operate independently, but who demonstrate no equality, how on earth do people accept a trinity, which presents three separate “persons” who are all equally “God”.....but claim that there is no polytheism.....?
I believe that the trinity is absolutely illogical, unscriptural nonsense.

Why can I find trinities in various pagan religions, but not in any Abrahamic faith except for Christendom? Can you answer me that?
What do we always find in the scriptures? It is always God's people who fall away to false worship.....the false worshippers never adopt the teachings of true worship. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

 

[GISMYS_7]

John 1:3

The KJV says "All things were made BY Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." I'm inclined to agree with this version.

I feel there's a difference.

yes!!! Only God could make all things!

 

[Waiting on him]

Part 2...

In Revelation 3:14, Jesus describes Himself as “ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ”, which is, “the Beginning of the Creation of God”. “ἀρχὴ”, here does not mean, “the first to be Created”, which is what the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the words to mean, as they corrupt the English here, to read, “the beginning of the creation by God”. Notice how they misrepresent what the Greek says, by inserting “BY” God, to make Jesus Christ the first-created. John did not write, “τοῦ ὑπό θεοῦ”, which would require the Greek preposition “ὑπό”, to be used. Interesting that in this same chapter of Revelation, in verses 1 and 12, as elsewhere, John writes, “τοῦ θεοῦ”, as he does in verse 14. And yet in these places, the JW's translate into English, “of God”, which is what the genitive case means!If “ἀρχὴ” here means “first to be created”, then there would have been no need to insert in English, the preposition “BY”. The Greek lexicon by the Unitarian, Dr Joseph Thayer, says of the word, “ἀρχὴ”, “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause”. Which means that Jesus Christ here says that He IS The Creator.

We have the strongest Testimony that Jesus Christ is the actual Creator of the entire universe. In Hebrews chapter 1, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ:

“And (καί, continued address to Jesus Christ), You (σύ, singular, referring to Jesus Christ) , Lord (κύριε, vocative, used in direct address), have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail” (verses 10-12)

These words are from Psalm 102:24-17, where they are used for Almighty God, Elohim:

“I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall become old like a garment; like a robe You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are He, and Your years shall have no end”

It is impossible for the words in Psalm to be used for Jesus Christ, if, as some assume, that He is not equal to the Father, and Himself Almighty God, Yahweh.

The Greek preposition, “διά”, has the root meaning of, “two; from duo...two, between, through”. “The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words.” A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54. The ancient Greek poet, Homer (around 800 BC), used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed).

It is clear from Scripture, that the Father did not Create by Himself, nor did Jesus Christ, as we have seen that both are Testified in the Bible as Creator. The only possible way to understand this, when we see the use of , “διά”, rather than “intermediate agent”, we can use this preposition with the meaning of, “with one another”.

In fact, there is a clear example of “διά” used in this sense in the New Testament, where we read in Galatians 1:1;

“Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through (διά) Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead”.

Here we have, “δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος”, where the meaning is, “by both Jesus Christ and God the Father”. Paul did not write, “δια ιησου χριστου και εξ θεου πατρος”, that is, “through Jesus Christ and from God the Father”. The one preposition, διά, here governs BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father. Note also, how Paul mentions Jesus Christ before he does the Father. Something he would not have done, if Jesus Christ were “inferior” to the Father. In verse 3, Paul prays for “grace and peace”, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ”, where again we have the one Greek preposition, “ἀπὸ” (from), for “God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ”. Again, jointly used as equals, as the “origin and cause”, of our “grace and peace”.

When we read in John 1:3, “πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο”, it is better translated, “all things with Him came into being”, as we have “τὸν θεόν” (God) in verse 1, as the Father. And, in verse 2 John is emphatic, when he says, “οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν”, “Who (the Word) was in the beginning with God”. This takes us into verse 3, as is distinct from the “ἀρχῇ”, which is not Genesis 1:1, but eternity past, as Jesus says in John 17:5, “And now, Father, glorify Me in your Own presence with the glory that I had (εἶχον, the imperfect, denoting origin and continuance) with (παρὰ, literally, “along with”, denoting equality) You before the world existed (πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι)”. Literally, “before there even was a world”, as in timeless eternity.

The same is with Hebrews 1:1, 2, “ὁ θεὸς…ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ…δι᾽ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας”, where it should read, “God…in His Son…with Whom also He made the worlds”

There can be no doubt, that the Bible clearly Teaches that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, exactly as God the Father is, and the Holy Spirit. This can only mean that Jesus Christ IS Yahweh, Almighty God; and that the God of the Bible cannot be “Unitarian”, as some heretically teach, but IS Trinitarian.

Those who are in Christ are new creatures in a totaly unique creation it all began at Calvary. Nearly all the scriptures you’ve provided are referring to the born of God, this began in the first century, and this is the world/new age being shown. We are living in this creation currently, and it has nothing to do with the creation of the cosmos.


The Lamb Slain before the foundation of world.
Greek: αἰών
Transliteration: aiōn
Pronunciation: ahee-ohn'
Definition: From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age course eternal (for) ever (-more) [n-]ever (beginning of the while the) world (began without end). Compare G5550 .
KJV Usage: ever (71x), world (38x), never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x), evermore (4x), age (2x), eternal (2x), misc (5x).
Occurs: 128
In verses: 102

 

[Waiting on him]

Jesus didn’t create the cosmos. Even if your pastor told you so or your mommy.

 

[MatthewG]

Bygracethroughfaith,

These are some scriptures that come to mind.


“For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?” “Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?” For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:32-36‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 10-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


“yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭8:6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

If asked what I believe about Jesus Christ, I made this very long lesson scripture based, a few months ago,

(I basically believe God gave his Word the power to create everything by the Holy Spirit of God to keep it short; and also see God and the Word together as Lord God Almighty.)

In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus didn’t create the cosmos. Even if your pastor told you so or your mommy.

John 1:3

The KJV says "All things were made BY Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made."

 

[Aunty Jane]

John 1:3

The KJV says "All things were made BY Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made."

It says "made" not "created". The two words are different because they mean different things. This is where original word studies are invaluable.You have to understand what words mean...not just in English which means relying on men to tell the story....look at what the words mean in their original languages and how they are used elsewhere in the Bible. It gives you a much better appreciation of what scripture teaches, which can be skewed by men with an agenda to promote their own ideas.

There is only one Creator....and one "master workman" (Proverbs 8:30-31) who was working at his Father's side, as an "artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman".

The Father is the Creator, and the son was assisting his Father in that work, fashioning creation as God instructed him. When it say that "all things came into existence through" the son, it conveys the image of a team.....the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26. It is not indicating that Jesus was the Creator, but that he was the Creator's assistant.

 

[GISMYS_7]

It says "made" not "created". The two words are different because they mean different things. This is where original word studies are invaluable.You have to understand what words mean...not just in English which means relying on men to tell the story....look at what the words mean in their original languages and how they are used elsewhere in the Bible. It gives you a much better appreciation of what scripture teaches, which can be skewed by men with an agenda to promote their own ideas.

There is only one Creator....and one "master workman" (Proverbs 8:30-31) who was working at his Father's side, as an "artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman".

The Father is the Creator, and the son was assisting his Father in that work, fashioning creation as God instructed him. When it say that "all things came into existence through" the son, it conveys the image of a team.....the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26. It is not indicating that Jesus was the Creator, but that he was the Creator's assistant.

Jesus is the creator God!!
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:15

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Waiting on him]

Jesus is the creator God!!
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:15

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Try this here,


John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
ok, in the above scripture, is Jesus stating that
a- there were teleprompters in his time and He was speaking to everyone on the planet in a national telecast?
b- he spoke openly to the Jews, and he is referring to them as the world?

I truly hope you give this some thought

 

[Waiting on him]

The scripture was quoted from the KJV

 

[Waiting on him]

It says "made" not "created". The two words are different because they mean different things. This is where original word studies are invaluable.You have to understand what words mean...not just in English which means relying on men to tell the story....look at what the words mean in their original languages and how they are used elsewhere in the Bible. It gives you a much better appreciation of what scripture teaches, which can be skewed by men with an agenda to promote their own ideas.

There is only one Creator....and one "master workman" (Proverbs 8:30-31) who was working at his Father's side, as an "artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman".

The Father is the Creator, and the son was assisting his Father in that work, fashioning creation as God instructed him. When it say that "all things came into existence through" the son, it conveys the image of a team.....the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26. It is not indicating that Jesus was the Creator, but that he was the Creator's assistant.

I’m surprised you guys haven’t considered that the Genesis account is partially in reference to what happened in the first century.
In Genesis it states
Let us create man in our image
In Colossians it states

Colossians 1:15 KJV
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I would suggest Jesus would be the first to manifest Gods image

 

[Waiting on him]

John 1:3

The KJV says "All things were made BY Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made."

Not referring to the cosmos, this is in reference to Gods new creatures, this had never ever happened prior to his resurrection
Galatians 6:15 KJV
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus didn’t create the cosmos. Even if your pastor told you so or your mommy.

Another lie from the devil. Jesus did indeed create the cosmos, since the Bible tells us that He is the Creator of all things. The Father and the Holy Spirit assigned the work of creation to Christ, yet they were closely involved.

For by Him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col 1:16,17)

 

[ScottA]

Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

“'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

“John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

“For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

“Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

The words are spirit, but your study and that of many throughout history, is literary, which was [all] confused by God at Babel. The finish of this matter cannot be understood by such means, but must be discerned spiritually, which is the source of "all truth."

If one cannot understand what is written, and that God is defined by revelation in ways higher than the ways of men...it is because he is a man, thinking as a man. If another reads and understands, it is by the spirit of God that he does. And those who read and draw their own conclusion--they are even against God.

Nonetheless, what we know of God is that He is One. But this we know by the Word, by the revelation according to Jesus Christ, who also sends another Helper to lead us into all truth. Why then dabble in the disagreements of babbling men? They do not hold the truth, but only search for it in their wanderings.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Read again slowly!! Jesus says those that see Me are seeing the Father!!
Jesus said=="""he that hath seen me hath seen the Father""" John 14:9

Firstly, look at the question by Philip to Jesus, "Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us", as if the Father was any DIFFERENT to Jesus in His Authority or Power, as God. Jesus' words in verse 10 tell you exactly what He means by "He that has seen Me has seen the Father". "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works". In some Greek manuscripts, the ending reads, "He does His works". What Jesus Christ does, is EXACTLY what the Father does, as "The TWO Persons are One in Agreement, Power, Authority", etc, as John 10:30 tells us. In chapter 5 of John's Gospel, when Jesus healed on the Sabbath Day, the Jews accused Him of breaking the Sabbath by healing. Jesus replies, "But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work". And, in verses 19-20, "Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all the things that He Himself does. And He will show Him greater works than these, so that you may marvel". In verse 23 Jesus says, "so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him (τὸν Πατέρα τὸν πέμψαντα αὐτόν, clearly NOT the same Person!)" All of theses verses clearly shows that Jesus Christ and the Father are DISTINCT Persons!

Secondly, in the best and original reading of John 1:18, it says, "Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο". Literally in English it reads, "God no one has ever seen the Unique God Who is eternally with the Father He has made Him known". Here we have Two Who are called GOD, equally (Θεὸν, Θεὸς). The First is clearly God the Father, and the Second Jesus Christ. Jesus is said to be "ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπος" of the Father, which is "reclining on the LAP" of the Father. Clearly DISTINCTION is meant. The same Greek word is used in Luke 16:22, where Lazarus is said to have been carried to "Abraham's Bosom (Lap)", which can hardly mean that Lazarus is the same person as Abraham! We also read in verse 18, that Jesus Christ is said to "ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο", that is, "He has led Him out", to "reveal" the Father.

Thridly, Jesus Christ is called "ος εστιν εικων του θεου", "Who eternally (εστιν) is the Image of God" (Colossians 1:15). The Greek "εἰκών" is used for "looking in the mirror", "a living image", "appearance". Jesus Christ is the Visible Appearance of what God "looks" like.

Fourthly, in the best and original reading of 1 Timothy 3:16, it says, "θεος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι", "GOD was manifested in the flesh". The Greek "φανερόω", means, "to bring to view", "to show one". Jesus Christ is the Invisible God in the flesh, as the God-Man.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

The words are spirit, but your study and that of many throughout history, is literary, which was [all] confused by God at Babel. The finish of this matter cannot be understood by such means, but must be discerned spiritually, which is the source of "all truth."

If one cannot understand what is written, and that God is defined by revelation in ways higher than the ways of men...it is because he is a man, thinking as a man. If another reads and understands, it is by the spirit of God that he does. And those who read and draw their own conclusion--they are even against God.

Nonetheless, what we know of God is that He is One. But this we know by the Word, by the revelation according to Jesus Christ, who also sends another Helper to lead us into all truth. Why then dabble is the disagreements of babbling men? They do not hold the truth, but only search for it in their wanderings.

True that God is One, however, it is also True that there are Three distinct Persons Who are equally called God in the Holy Bible. It is not "babbling" to expound what God has already revealed to us clearly in the Bible. It is very edifying!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

John 1:3

The KJV says "All things were made BY Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." I'm inclined to agree with this version.

I feel there's a difference.

BY Him, as in Jesus Christ is correct, and so is the meaning of the Greek preposition, "διά" as "WITH", as the Father and Holy Spirit are also Actual Creators. As Ecclesiastes 12:1 says in the Hebrew "Remember also your Creators (אֶת־בּוֹרְאֶיךָ in the PLURAL)". And Yet Genesis 1:1 says, "In the Beginning GOD Created"

 

[ScottA]

True that God is One, however, it is also True that there are Three distinct Persons Who are equally called God in the Holy Bible. It is not "babbling" to expound what God has already revealed to us clearly in the Bible. It is very edifying!

But therein lies the problem. In your explanation you are forced to say what the scriptures do not: that God is "Three distinct Persons." That indeed, is how each is introduced (distinctly--even as persons), but they are defined as such, but as One.

I would offer, that it is not that each is each at all, or distinct, but rather that the distinction comes from how we have come to know them: We are first introduced to "God", then after thousands of years the "Son" is prophesied then comes calling "God" "Father", and then He introduces "another Helper" the "Holy Spirit"--each revealed distinctly, but as One...not three. For that matter...God has many Names. But having that, I am not saying I do not prescribe to the Trinity--I do...and then some.

Likewise, even we being one are first known as a son/daughter, then by title according to our work, and then if we have children we are also known as a father/mother. God has simply unfolded knowledge and identity of Himself in revelation by a similar manner as even others come to know us. And if that sounds like "we"...we would likely stand up or stay seated depending on who calls upon us. ;)

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

But therein lies the problem. In your explanation you are forced to say what the scriptures do not: that God is "Three distinct Persons." That indeed, is how each is introduced (distinctly--even as persons), but they are defined as such, but as One.

I would offer, that it is not that each is each at all, or distinct, but rather that the distinction comes from how we have come to know them: We are first introduced to "God", then the "Son" is prophesied then comes calling "God" "Father", and then "another Helper" the "Holy Spirit"--each revealed distinctly, but as One...not three. For that matter...God has many Names. But having that, I am not saying I do not prescribe to the Trinity--I do...and then some.

Likewise, even we being one are first known as a son/daughter, then by title according to our work, and then if we have children we are also known as a father/mother. God has simply unfolded knowledge and identity of Himself in revelation by a similar manner as even others come to know us. And if that sounds like "we"...we would likely stand up or stay seated depending on who calls upon us. ;)

In the Book of Isaiah, chapter 48, in verses 16, in its context, we have the Speaker Who is clearly Yahweh, He says, "Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I: and now 'ădônây Yahweh hath sent Me, and His Spirit"

The Speaker, Who is clearly not Isaiah, or any other human being, says:

in verse 3, “I have declared the former things from the beginning”, and verse 5, “I have even from the beginning declared it to you”. In verse 12 and 13 the Speaker says, “Listen to Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He, I am the First, I also am the Last. My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand spread out the heavens”. In verse 15 we read, “I, even I have spoken, yes, and I have called him”. In the very next verse, we read, “Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am YHWH your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go”.

It can only be that Jesus Christ is the Speaker here, as He says that "'ădônây Yahweh hath sent Me". But He is Himself also Yahweh! Then we have the sending of "the Holy Spirit". It is also clear that there are Three distinct Persons here.

Like John 1:1, were Jesus Christ Who isn "the Word", is said to be "WITH God [the Father]", which makes Him DISTINCT, and yet at the same time it says, "and the Word was God", though not the same God as previously mentioned!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes, very distinctly separate entities, working together in creation but only one is The Almighty.
The Father is the Creator, who used the agency of his son to fashion all that exists, using God's powerful spirit. There is no trinity there, just the three necessary components who are responsible for creation. Creation came "through" the son, not "from" him.

According to Christendom’s trinity, there are three gods....”God the Father”....”God the Son”...and “God the Holy Spirit”.....this is polytheism in direct opposition to the Jewish Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4....so not what Jesus would have taught at all. He was born a Jew, and died a Jew.

Jesus never once claimed to be God. If there is a direct statement by either Yahweh or Jesus stating that they are both equally “God” along with the holy spirit.....then please provide it.


Indeed, there is not one scripture where that is even implied.

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos." (Mounce Interlinear)

How is God "with" himself? How did God pray to himself....or how did the Father know things that the son did not?

Use of the definite article (ho/the) in John 1:1 determines who is “ho theos” (the God) and who is just “theos” (a god) in that verse. One is the Almighty and the other is a divine personage but is not “ho theos”. One little word but with a whole lot of meaning.

IOW, that scripture if it was interpreted correctly tells a completely different story to what most translations present.
The correct translation should read..
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God (Yahweh) and the Word was divine.”

The Greeks had many gods, all of whom had names to identify them. But because the Jews had ceased uttering the divine name, this nameless “Lord” was difficult to point out in the Greek definition of a god. (theos) (Which simply identifies a “mighty or powerful one” or in the Jewish understanding can be someone imbued with divine authority.) The "Lord" Yahweh and the "Lord" Jesus somehow became one and the same person.....only later were they joined by the holy spirit to become a trinity.....over 300 years after Jesus died.

When Jesus was being accused of blasphemy by the Jews for claiming that he was God’s son, he said that Yahweh himself called the judges in Israel “gods” because they ruled with his Father’s authority. (John 10:31-36) All he ever said was that he was God’s son...never did he claim to be God, otherwise he would have been guilty of blasphemy and the Jews could have legally put him to death as a blasphemer.....but Jesus had to die as an innocent man. If the apostles had accepted Jesus as God incarnate, then they too would have been guilty of breaking God's law, putting other 'gods' in the Father's place. (Exodus 20:3) There was no trinity among the first Christians, all of whom were Jewish.

The word “god” in both Hebrew and Greek has more than one meaning that seems to be ignored when the trinity is being promoted. There is no trinity in the Bible, no matter how much it is forced into scripture by inference. There is not a single direct statement that says "Jesus is Almighty God", and many verses that prove that this is impossible.

At Revelation 3:12 e.g. Jesus, who was in heaven at the time he gave John the Revelation, still calls his Father “my God” four times in this one verse. How does one equal part of God worship another part of himself in heaven?
And if John also said that “no one has seen God at any time”....how many people saw Jesus? (John 1:18) Thousands.


Yes, like John 17:3....there Jesus acknowledges that his Father is “the only true God” without including himself, and that he was “sent” by him. Jesus is also called God’s “holy servant”. (Acts 4:30)

So, if there are three entities, who can all operate independently, but who demonstrate no equality, how on earth do people accept a trinity, which presents three separate “persons” who are all equally “God”.....but claim that there is no polytheism.....?
I believe that the trinity is absolutely illogical, unscriptural nonsense.

Why can I find trinities in various pagan religions, but not in any Abrahamic faith except for Christendom? Can you answer me that?
What do we always find in the scriptures? It is always God's people who fall away to false worship.....the false worshippers never adopt the teachings of true worship. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

In 1 Corinthians 10:9, Paul writes, "Nor let us tempt the Christ (τον χριστον), as some of them also tempted Him and were destroyed by serpents"

It is very clear that these words are from Numbers 21:6, "And Yahweh sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people. And many people of Israel died"

Paul has no problems with saying that Yahweh in Numbers Who sent the serpents to bite those rebelled again Him, is Jesus Christ. Paul could never had said this, if Jesus Christ IS not YHWH.

The Emphatic Diaglott version of the New Testament that was issued by the Jehovah's Witnesses, has the Greek text, "τον χριστον", and the literal English under it, "the Anointed". The cross reference in the footnote, is to the passage in Numbers!

I am aware that this reading has been corrupted to lead "τὸν κύριον (Lord)", which is from the 4th century; and "τὸν θεόν (God)", which is from the 5th century. The reading "τον χριστον", is from about 175–225! Even the heretic Origen knew of this reading. the New Testament by the Unitarian Dr George Noyne, reads "Nor let us tempt Christ"!

In Philippians 2, Paul again says of Jesus Christ, "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (YHWH), to the glory of God the Father"

Isaiah 45:23 reads, "By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance"

As for Jesus Christ saying that the Father is "the Only True God", read this, Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

Who can really doubt that Jesus Christ IS YHWH.