The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Naomi25]

What I think is that we need to allow all the passages to just say what they say, and to understand them in such a way as to harmonize with all other passages, which I find to be exactly the same thing.

There are no contradictions. When I find somethat that seems like a contradiction, I've learned, find the word, find the phrase, that I've inserted some of my own meaning into. Once I do that, the contradictions seem to evaporate.

Anytime I come to a passage where I look at it and say to myself it must be meaning something a little different, I realize its my view has to become a little different. I need to let the words just say what they say.

Much love!

I see what you’re saying, but still confess to struggling over how you ‘allow the passages to just say’ seemingly opposite things.

Do you mind me asking how you harmonise the below passages if you see both at ‘face value’?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

 

[Naomi25]

No, that's not true! Salvation came to US by faith alone, receiving, trusting in Jesus, that His death removed our sins.

But before Jesus died, it was different! Not that faith was different, but the delivery was different.

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. But it wasn't the Gospel message of Jesus Christ that was preached to Abraham, it was, "you are going to have more children then you can count." But who is saying that to you or me?

Okay…I think I must make 2 points here. The first is how we understand ‘salvation’ in the OT, and the second is the idea of about reverting to types and shadows.

We know that because Christ had not yet come in the OT, that they could not directly place their faith in him and his atoning work. However, we must recognise the continual promises IN the OT of the coming Messiah. We see the idea first proclaimed to Adam and Eve…that the ‘seed of the woman’ would ‘crush the head’ of the seed of the serpent. We see repeated promises and prophecies concerning this ‘crushing one’ all throughout the OT.
Abrahams faith was not solely believing God would give him uncountable offspring. The promise was that through Abraham’s offspring, he would be a blessing to all nations. Abraham’s faith was that his family would be directly responsible for bringing forth this ‘crushing one’.
That’s why we see in Gal 3 that Paul considered the ‘promise to the offspring’ a direct reference to Christ himself, not to Jewish people. That is why Jesus is able to claim that “you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me..”
Habbukuk 2:4 tells us that ‘the righteous shall live by his faith.’
So…the idea that OT people were saved by anything other than faith in the promises of God, is incorrect. Therefore is it also incorrect to say that salvation by faith alone was in anyway different to NT salvation. The OT believers looked forward to God’s promise of a Messiah, and post NT people believe by looking back at God’s fulfilled promise in Christ.

Which brings me to my second point. The OT is replete with ‘types and shadows’…things that were the ‘shadow’ of the real thing coming…Christ. The Passover Lamb was a type and shadow of Christ, the true Passover Lamb. The ‘real’ figure of Christ, Messiah, is connected directly to the New Covenant…where God’s law are written on the hearts of man, not on stone tablets (and stone hearts).
To suggest that after the church is gone we go back to ‘types and shadows’…which is essentially what you’re doing by claiming Matt 25 shows people being saved through works based ‘faith’, rather than faith in Christ alone…is not found in scripture.
There is, in this New Covenant reality…only faith in Christ alone.

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So in the coming time, there will be a group of gentiles separated from the other, and Jesus will declare them righteous because they did the right things.

Again…I cannot countenance that notion. It disregards clear NT teaching about faith alone. It does not harmonise the texts about faith and works, but specifically says the opposite of salvation coming through faith alone. We cannot even say that it is a matter of going back to types and shadows, as we can see in various passages that OT saints were saved BY their faith. Not even they were saved by their works.

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If you count that there is no change in God's delivery of His grace to save between the time of the gentile church, and the time of Jacob's Trouble (but he will be saved out of it), then you are left with your quandery, and to wonder what Jesus REALLY must have meant. God will have His prophets in the world, who knows what they will say?

I think you mistake me…I have no quandary. Unless you count utter bafflement over your views as a quandary.
Here’s my issues as succinctly as I can make them:
You apparently read texts in a way that leads to direct contradiction.
To make the texts harmonise you assume there must be a ‘change’ in methods of salvation based upon a Pre-trib Rapture of the church…an idea that is spurious at best, as there remains nothing in the NT that speaks directly to such a ‘change’ or even Christ’s return being in two events.
You feel comfortable calling the church ‘the gentile church’…which is clearly not accurate…the ‘church’ was founded by Jews. It remains as a mix of Jews and Gentiles. Placing a separation there is unbiblical after all the work Paul does to make them one body.

I understand it all ‘works’ for you, but for myself, I cannot agree that that is what the bible is teaching.

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I think Jesus' words are to be believed just as He said them.

And in the Millennium, what then? Is faith still faith when Jesus is present, ruling with an iron rod?

Much love!

The problem here, perhaps, lies in how we believe Christ’s words. When he says “I am the bread of life” are we to understand he considers himself a loaf of bread? Of course not! We know the imagery he is employing…bread is sustenance…essential for life! So when we read it we understand he is saying that we are to rely on him for our every breath and need!
We hardly should understand that ‘believing his words’ as true, right and good…does not necessarily mean we take everything his said ‘literally’.

As far as the Millennium? Let’s assume it is a time as you believe. How do we NOT have faith? Christ will be present, we will see with our eyes what we have believed only through our trust.
Will having him present suddenly mean that we loose faith in his word, his promises, his character? Resoundingly NO!
And…still assuming the 1000 years is as you believe…why would we not think that ‘children’ born in that era would be saved any other way? We are told repeatedly that salvation comes through faith alone in Christ alone. James gives us a solid and biblical answer on how the works/faith issue is to be understood.

 

[Naomi25]

It was by offering sacrifices previously.

Much love!

I cannot agree to this. The bible is both replete and clear when it speaks to faith….

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him,
but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Galatians 3:11-14
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:5-9
Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.


Hebrews 11:7-10
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

Hebrews 11:17-24, 27-35
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, ”Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter…
By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.



Galatians 3 speaks of the place of the law…’those who do them (keep the laws) shall live by them.’
IF simply keeping the laws would save, we should see most of the OT Jewish people receiving salvation. But what did Jesus think of the Pharisees law keeping? Was Saul saved even though he kept them almost perfectly? The answer is, of course, no.
No one is capable of keeping the law perfectly. And the requirement IS to keep it perfectly. Thus, scripture informs us that those relying ON the law for salvation, MUST keep it perfectly. All or nothing.
That’s why Jesus was necessary. HE kept the law perfectly, so that when he was offered up as sacrifice, it would have the power needed to act as propitiation.
No. Simply offering up sacrifices did not save OT folks.
We’re they still called to make sacrifices and to keep the law? Yes…much as we…already saved by our faith…do the good works prepared for us. Works evidence our faith. Keeping the law was meant to remind the Jews of their sin, their need for Messiah, and also evidenced that faith God would send him.

 

[n2thelight]

Wrong, the Lamb is opening the Seals, not Satan.

Why are you giving Satan credit for God's redemption of mankind?

The Second Coming is the most important future event. It will start to change creation back to a pre-sin condition. Satan has no interest in removing sin.

Of course Christ is opening the seals ,and He's showing you what happens at each . I agree the 2nd coming will be the greatest event ever ,yet that doesn't change the fact ,that there's no rapture before this happens .

Not giving satan credit for anything ,as he will do that which God allows ,number one being deception. You IMO worry about the flesh to much, when the state of your very soul is at stake

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The abomination that makes desolate.

Moses told Pharoah, NO, we can't offer sacrifices in the land, we have to leave it! We're going to be offering "the abomination of the Egyptians", and they'll stone us!

What were they going to do? Sacrifice cows. The Egyptians worshipped cows. The "abomination" was their false god.

An AoD was the defiling of the Temple in Antiochus' time, but its not THE Abomination of Desolation Jesus spoke about. That will be when a False Prophet in the END TIMES places an Image of a Man in the Holy of Holies, which will defile the temple. The only reason it is made whole however is because Israel REPENTS at the 1335 and turns to Jesus as their Messiah. They start worshiping Jesus in the temple and the High Priest at that time will then FORBOD Jesus Worship and place an Image of some type in the temple of God's holy of holies.

OK, so you have them concurrent. Correct?

No, how can they run parallel when one dies 75 days before the other one dies ? Why is that si hard for people to grasp. Let me demonstrate.

If you and I are FORETOLD by some Swami who know all things to both be a Governor for 100 days, and In take suddenly die on July 14 2022, and you serve until August 14 2022 could we both be governors for the exact same time period? Of course not, its simple math, all we would have to do is back track 100 days from each term and where it ended and if one term ended 30 days before the other term then in order to both have terms which lasted 100 days, the other term would have to start 30 days sooner than his Its just simple math.

Likewise the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies when Jesus returns at the 7th Vial, so how can they run concurrent? It takes much prayer and diligent study to understand end time events.

 

[ewq1938]

All good, one thing we do know is, ain't gonna be no rapture

Of course there is a rapture, it happens at the 7th trump. Paul called it using the Greek word harpazo which is rapture in the Greek language, and Christ used the language of being gathered, both happen after the Great Tribulation is over.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I cannot agree to this. The bible is both replete and clear when it speaks to faith….

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him,
but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Galatians 3:11-14
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:5-9
Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.


Hebrews 11:7-10
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

Hebrews 11:17-24, 27-35
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, ”Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter…
By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.



Galatians 3 speaks of the place of the law…’those who do them (keep the laws) shall live by them.’
IF simply keeping the laws would save, we should see most of the OT Jewish people receiving salvation. But what did Jesus think of the Pharisees law keeping? Was Saul saved even though he kept them almost perfectly? The answer is, of course, no.
No one is capable of keeping the law perfectly. And the requirement IS to keep it perfectly. Thus, scripture informs us that those relying ON the law for salvation, MUST keep it perfectly. All or nothing.
That’s why Jesus was necessary. HE kept the law perfectly, so that when he was offered up as sacrifice, it would have the power needed to act as propitiation.
No. Simply offering up sacrifices did not save OT folks.
We’re they still called to make sacrifices and to keep the law? Yes…much as we…already saved by our faith…do the good works prepared for us. Works evidence our faith. Keeping the law was meant to remind the Jews of their sin, their need for Messiah, and also evidenced that faith God would send him.

Nice post, the Sacrifices were only a shadow of THE SACRIFICE to come Jesus. Which is why I see most everyone not understanding Dan. 12:11, there is no way Gabriel nor the Man in Linen (Jesus preincarnate) are speaking to Daniel about End Time Meat Sacrifices being taken away and thus defiling the temple, if they are offering meat sacrifices that in and of its self would be an abomination. They are both speaking about the Jews who repent during the 70th week, who start worshiping Messiah Jesus as Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:8-9 both show us, and then Jesus Worship is made illegal, and the Beast Man/Little Horns Image is placed in the holy of holies.

I don't have a clue what Mark was speaking about there and Egypt tbh. Maybe my post confused him, maybe he sped read it, who knows. I am trying to point out to him that the Sacrifice that is taken away in Dan. 12:11 is Jesus Worship. He is THE SACRIFICE, there is no way that the Man in Linen and Gabriel are speaking about a meat sacrifice 2000 years after Jesus paid the price for our sins, its just not a possibility. THE SACRIFCE that is stopped is Jesus Worship by the Jews who repent during the 70th week, that's why they have to flee Judea, they repented and understand Jesus' Matt. 24:15-17 words.

 

[n2thelight]

Of course there is a rapture, it happens at the 7th trump. Paul called it using the Greek word harpazo which is rapture in the Greek language, and Christ used the language of being gathered, both happen after the Great Tribulation is over.

Thinking you knew I was referring to our gathering back to Christ ,I just prefer not calling it a rapture

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus Worship is made illegal, and the Beast Man/Little Horns Image is placed in the holy of holies.

I don't think worshipping Jesus will be made illegal ,as the world will think they are worshipping Christ . I feel the next major prophecy to happen will be the one world government

 

[Naomi25]

Adam died both spiritually and physically that instant. I do grasp that "god" image.

The ‘god image’? Are you speaking of ‘made in the image’ or ‘sons of god’ (elohim)?
Because, as you know, I disagree that humans are ‘sons of God’. We are children of God through adoption, yes. Thus we get to call him ‘Abba, father!’ But repeatedly scripture applies ‘sons of God’ to divine beings. Context matters greatly when reading passages that speak to divine beings rather than just ‘children of God’.

.The problem is you do not attribute that point to Adam prior to his disobedient act. You do not see that is how God made humans on day 6.

If you are trying to attribute the status of ‘elohim’ to Adam before his fall, then please, by all means, show me the passage that states that.

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God did not create humans simply "with a spiritual component". God created humans even above the ability of all angels including the archangels. Even Satan. That is why Satan wanted Adam to disobey God, which took all that away from humans and left them in the image of Adam.

‘Above the ability?’ You are attempting to compare apples to oranges. We were made ‘in the image of God’, made to dwell physically on earth. Heavenly beings were spiritual creatures, given spiritual abilities, and created to serve and worship God.

And, I’ll remind you again, you have no scriptural evidence that Adam was made either as an elohim, or with ‘the image’ BEFORE the fall, and lost either of those status’ after it.

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Notice the sons of God saw the daughters of Adam's flesh and blood as attractive. Eve saw the fruit was attractive. After destroying Adam and Eve, Satan seemed to work on the rest of the sons of God like he did Eve.

The text reads “the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive..”
If we are to assume you are correct, and the text means that Son’s of Adam saw that the daughter of Eve were attractive….then why on earth does it not just say that? And…what would we say is so remarkable about men choosing women to take as wife? Had that not already been going on? It had not been worth of mention before that.
What if we suggest that the ‘sons of God’ were ‘good’ men, like Seth…while the ‘daughters of men’ were from the wicked line of Cain?
Again…wouldn’t the text just say that? And again, do we not suppose that a certain amount of intermingling would be taking place before this? And again, with no mention.
When we can find in other texts that the ‘sons of God’ are clearly referencing heavenly beings, then we begin to understand what makes this passage so remarkable. And why their offspring were referred to as ‘Nephilim’…rather than just ‘more people’…

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I do not think those created on the 6th day turned against God. They had multiplied for generations. It was the generations after Enoch that sinned against God, while Enoch a fallen sinner was found righteous in God's sight.

Again…you are making assumptions from the text. Assumptions that I do not think stand up under the weight of other scriptures. If those ‘other men’, supposedly created on Day 6, did NOT turn against God…then why is the whole human race under the curse of sin of ‘our father Adam’?
You seem to have concocted a story about a different group of people (not found specifically in the text), who did not sin (also not mentioned in scripture), but were then somehow fell into sin and were then wiped out…which is why there were no ‘perfect’ people left. (Again, not mentioned in scripture).

Far, far too many assumptions in all of that. I like to stick with what the text can prove…or, as the case may be, be proven BY the text.

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We do not know much about these sons of God. They no longer lived on earth after the Flood. Just like the rebel angels were also bound in the pit until after the Second Coming.

Are you here referring to ‘sons of God’ as the elohim…or as ‘men’? You are a little vague on that.

But…I’d suggest that IF you are indeed referring to ‘day 6’ men (as per your insistence in the Gen 6 account) the reason why you ‘don’t know much about them’…is because they cannot be found in scripture.
Have you ever tried reading the book of Enoch? Not cannon, I know, but it can be valuable for understanding HOW the ancient Israeli’s saw things. Most scholars recognise it as a solid for contextual purposes…indeed the book itself is quoted IN scripture…in Jude and Peter.
It gives a clear understanding of how Intertestimental Jews viewed ‘sons of God’ and the Nephilim.
It’s also interesting to note: historically, that Jews believed that these ‘half breeds’…the Nephilim…were the source of demonic possession we see frequently in the NT. You see, the original ‘sons of Gods’…the fallen, rebellious heavenly beings, who came down and took women…were imprisoned after the event (so Enoch tells us, and thus we understand Jewish tradition to believe)…it was the dead Nephilim spirits, killed during the flood, that wandered looking for a way to once again be embodied.
Now, granted we cannot take these things AS scripture, as cannon. But it is very interesting to consider the scriptural texts through the lens of ancient Israel.

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At the Second Coming humans, the redeemed church, will be instantly restored to the full image of God. So no one can say Adam wasn't instantly changed from life to death, while at the same time claim we will instantly be changed from death to life. What is soon about to happen to the redeemed on earth is exactly what instantly happened to Adam, but in reverse order. Adam and Eve literally died both physically and spiritually. At the Second Coming the redeemed will instantly become alive literally both physically and spiritually.

All on earth will see creation in it's full spiritual glory. They will be afraid, really, really afraid. Then they will listen to Satan, because he no longer needs to hide in the shadows.

I…think what you are doing here is equating “image bearers of God” with our broken relationship with God. In other words, broken relationship, broken image.
Paul, it seems, would disagree with that:

1 Corinthians 11:7
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

Clearly, being ‘fallen’ has not removed our ‘image bearer’ status.

 

[Naomi25]

The difference between us is that I am dispensationalist an you apparently are not. When these "seeming contradictions" appear, such as, we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, while, the sheep are declared righteous because of their works.

How can we be saved by faith and them by works?

My answer - it's a different dispensation. And I see signs of that all over. So there are differences, just like between OT and NT, and the 1000 yr kingdom.

Your answer - the verse doesn't exactly mean that. You have to merge it with Ephesians, and realize it can't have the apparent meaning it seems to have.

Is that fair?

Much love!

Should our differences be based on what system we hold? Should it not be on what the texts say or do not say? I understand one naturally gravitates to a certain system or not, but I just fear the moment we start assessing scripture though a ‘system lense’ we run the risk of bringing bias to the text.

And I’m sorry…but how is it wrong to consider the whole of scriptural weight when we consider a topic? Do we not need to do this for the Trinity? How would the doctrine of the Trinity be formed or held if we did not gather all passages that spoke to the nature and character of God and consider what they ALL told us?

And, like I’ve said previously, we tend to run into problems if we head to a single text and then insist it be read ‘literally’. Jesus suddenly become a loaf of bread, an actual Lamb….AND a lion…among other things. True does not always mean ‘literal’. We draw from the text the desired meaning…context.
And no…no I can’t see scriptural weight arguing a ‘different dispensation’. I see ‘this age’, and ‘the age to come’.

Fair? Without any intended disparaging…shouldn’t we say that what is ‘fair’ is what is scriptural? I mean….you yourself MUST ascribe to the idea that various different texts must be draw together to form doctrines. Dispensationalists do it with forming the Pre-trib Rapture idea. If we were to look only at a single text and take it ‘literally’ each time…as you insist, there is no way the Pre-trib rapture could emerge.
So…is it entirely ‘fair’ to ask if I’m being ‘fair’ by saying that it is good and right to consider the whole of what scripture teaches on a particular subject?

 

[Naomi25]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, but there will be when Jesus comes. So this is about the church now, Paul the apostle to the gentiles.

Much love!

But where? Where does it SAY this? Where can we find anywhere in the NT even a hint of this? Every passage we look at since Christ came tells us those barriers have been broken down in Christ. How…where…do you suggest we look for evidence elsewhere? If we cannot understand the OT…the types and shadows…in light of the progressive revelation of the NT…then aren’t we essentially invalidating whatever the NT says?

 

[Naomi25]

Nothing intermediate. This is how earth was intended before sin entered. God is just finishing what He started in Genesis 1-2

6000 years of sin was the intermediate stage of current creation.

How can the ‘millennium’ not be considered as ‘intermediate’? If ‘this age’ ends at Christ’s second coming, all the things that come with it (resurrected bodies being given, the wicked judged) and then we move into a new time period where other things are apparently described (the earth receiving a partial makeover so it’s not as bad as it currently is and things flourish, no sickness and very little ageing, peace and no war)…but THIS period will also come to an end via a battle and another judging…AFTER which we then move into eternity when the world finishes getting her makeover and sin and death are no more….then by matter of fact, it IS an intermediate age or stage.

I would submit that the bible teaches that when Christ returns we see all those things described at one time. Resurrection bodies, the wicked being judged, the earth and heavens being dissolved in fire which usher in the eternal heavens and earth where sin and death are no more.

 

[ewq1938]

How can the ‘millennium’ not be considered as ‘intermediate’? If ‘this age’ ends at Christ’s second coming, all the things that come with it (resurrected bodies being given, the wicked judged) and then we move into a new time period where other things are apparently described (the earth receiving a partial makeover so it’s not as bad as it currently is and things flourish, no sickness and very little ageing, peace and no war)…but THIS period will also come to an end via a battle and another judging…AFTER which we then move into eternity when the world finishes getting her makeover and sin and death are no more….then by matter of fact, it IS an intermediate age or stage.

I would submit that the bible teaches that when Christ returns we see all those things described at one time. Resurrection bodies, the wicked being judged, the earth and heavens being dissolved in fire which usher in the eternal heavens and earth where sin and death are no more.

The bible doesn't teach that.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I don't think worshipping Jesus will be made illegal ,as the world will think they are worshipping Christ . I feel the next major prophecy to happen will be the one world government

This is about the Jews only, just after they repent, the 1/3 which Zechariah 13:8-9 says DO REPENT, this is not debatable as per if the Jews repent. And the very next verse, Zechariah 14:1 says the Day of the Lord has come. So, we see they repent just before the 1260 event.

As per the rest of the world being tricked, that's a myth. John 5:43 was a prophecy about the Pharisees/Jewish leaders of Jesus' day, who 30-35 years later put forth men who came in their own name as the Messiah, they knew Rome was the Fourth Beast, so they put forth men to try and save them from the fourth Beast around 7 AD.

Will the False Prophet and Anti-Christ try to perform miracles and trick those Jews in the Petra and Bozrah area into coming unto Jerusalem so they can kill them? Yes, but it will not work, Jesus told us that in Matt. 24:24-28, he says I have told you BEFORE[HAND] thus meaning they know where Jesus will be coming from and wat not to fall for. If they say he is in the desert, don't believe it, if they say the Christ is in a secret storeroom, don't fall for it. For I will come as the lightening comes from the Eastern Skies to the west. This is why Jesus says IF IT WERE POSSIBLE they would deceive the very elect (the Jews who repent during the vend times) BUT I have forewarned you all. Or I have told you before[hand].

The Jewish High Priest forbids Jesus worship, by tat time Israel will be a part of the European Union, that is THE AGREEMENT (Covenant) spoken of in Dan. 9:27.

The Anti-Christ, IMHO, only rules over the E.U. and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. REMEMBER, 1/3 of the world is destroyed by the Rev. 8 Asteroid Strike. Russia, Turkey and Iran's armies will be toothless, Gid destroys their armies before the Anti-Christ comes to power.

China will rule their region like a dictator In suppose, but the world economic collapse may doom them. But the Anti-Christ will not ule China etc. People get that all wrong.

 

[Naomi25]

I said in principle. I did not say they were.

Ah…no. No you didn’t say “in principle”. Here is what you said:

“Look at it as the Lamb's book of life.
Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.”

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You keep using the olive tree symbolism as if it is literal.

Why do people have such trouble with the term/idea of ‘literal’?
No…I am NOT using the tree symbolism as if it is ‘literal’. If I were I’d be insisting we were all branches and there was a dirty great tree we needed to plug into. I am not an idiot, so I have never claimed that.
What I AM doing is sticking TO the metaphor Paul used to describe something. Because, you know, sticking with the metaphor USED in scripture is, I would submit, better than trying to find one of your own, or pulling in a different metaphor that was used FOR something else.

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Revelation 13 does not say a name has not been there.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Nor does it say “who’s names were written in the book at the foundation of the world, then scrubbed out again…but don’t worry, it can be written back in…”

Indeed, the most natural reading of this text, and other texts that refer to the book of life, is to understand it in an ‘predetermined’ light. For example:

Ephesians 1:4-5
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Do we truly suppose that, after reading this AND Rev 13, that God, in his grace, love and ‘will’, predestined us to be his, wrote our names in his book…only to scrub ‘em out when we resist his will…but he might consider writing them back in if we return to him?
No, the thought is sound; from the foundation of the world, the Lamb’s book of life contains the name of those who are ‘predestined to be adopted’.

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The first thought:

"whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb"

Of course their name is not there. The Lamb's book of life is now opened. When a person receives the mark, their name is instantly removed. That is what Revelation 13 is about.

Your thoughts are dizzying. And I’m finding it rather difficult to figure out exactly what on earth you mean. They are there, but of course they’re not there, they were there,…unless they have been removed from there.

Here’s a question; aren’t we told that the ‘opening of the books’ only happens at the Great White Throne judgement? How do you figure the book is open now?

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The second thought:

"of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The Cross, the act of Atonement itself sealed in every name and the Lamb's book of life as well as the Atonement was a done deal before creation.

So…They are there, but of course they’re not there, they were there,…unless they have been removed from there.…but…the done deal of the atonement meant they were sealed there from the beginning…?
You see how crazy this is becoming..? Not to mention found nowhere in scripture.

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God did not just make up a book and place names He foreknew into it. The Atonement itself was the done deal, and every one was covered equally. No favoritism, no foreknowledge of who is who to get placed.

Except…isn’t that exactly what Eph 1 implies?

Ephesians 1:4-5
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Revelation 13:8
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

How do we ignore both passages, link by a similar phrase and idea? At the foundation of the world, those ‘predestined’ were written in the Lamb’s book of life.

And I beg to differ about ‘everyone being covered equally’ by the atonement. Everyone has the potential to be covered, but not every person starts out ‘being covered’ only to loose that. Scripture’s clarion call is the direct opposite…everyone is dead in their sins UNTIL they accept Christ…they are then covered by the blood.

 

[Naomi25]

Now of course God also knew then, who would be removed at the GWT. But that is not the same thing as only saving some and not others.

Again…an idea NOT found in scripture.

Revelation 20:12, 15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done….And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

We don’t see anyone being removed here. We’re told that BOOKS (that plural) are opened. One book is clearly the Lamb’s book of life. The other book, we must assume, holds the names of all those NOT found in the book of life. And, if we know from previous passages that those in Christ were written in his book ‘before the foundation of the world’, why make the assumption that all names started in his book and were moved into the other book. It simply does not say that.

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There was never a time when a person's name was not in the Lamb's book of life. All a name can do is remain there. A name cannot remove itself, nor add itself.

Never has nor will a name been added as an after thought.

I just…cannot. Let me repeat for you what you’ve told me:
Post #720 - Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.
Post #821 - Of course their name is not there.
- (God) sealed in every name and the Lamb's book of life as well as the Atonement was a done deal before creation.
- God did not just make up a book and place names He foreknew into it
- (He had) no foreknowledge of who is who to get placed
- Now of course God also knew then, who would be removed at the GWT.
- There was never a time when a person's name was not in the Lamb's book of life
- All a name can do is remain there.
- God never removed names and then placed them back into the book of life

But…of course! This all makes perfect sense, and I’m reeling with remorse I haven’t used your example in place of Paul’s metaphor. It would have made so much more sense.

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No, the Lamb's book of life is literal and physical. It is not a metaphor. The Olive tree is a metaphor and not literal. God never removed names and then placed them back into the book of life, so I agree on that point.

So…once again…you want me to chuck the metaphor Paul himself made to illustrate a certain point…and replace it with a non-metaphor that doesn’t track equally with the topic in question (which perhaps is why Paul didn’t use it?)

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Once again all names ever to be conceived, even abortions are in the Lamb's book of life. Not one name was ever left out. After the 7th Seal is opened, then the Lamb's book of life will be opened and names will start being removed at that point. The last names removed are at the GWT, for those in sheol. They have been there for thousands of years, yet still in the Lamb's book of life, because they were sent to sheol before the Lamb's book of life was opened.

Before the 7th Seal, no changes could ever be made. No names added, no names removed. The physical act of God Himself on the Cross in 30AD sealed every name ever to be into the Lamb's book of life, yet that book was actually sealed and the Atonement granted before God created current creation. God would not hold any one with respect as to their personal salvation. It would be their choice and theirs alone. No coercion, no fate, no decree on who is who.

You know…it seems to me like a whole lot of supposition is going into the thought above.
All names ever born or conceived WERE found in the book of life..? Supposition.
The book of life is opened after the 7th Seal..? Supposition. Unless you are saying that the GWT is ‘after’ the 7th seal.
Names are then removed from the book…? Supposition.
The last names are removed at the GWT..? Supposition.
The idea that those names ‘to be removed’ had been there for thousands of years, but went to Sheol because it was before the book was opened…? Supposition.
Before the 7th seal no names could be added or removed..? Supposition. On many levels.
The idea that all started in the book, were indeed sealed there before creation…and yet still are able to be removed from it…by choice…? Supposition!

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Now Paul comes along and claims in Christ life is an olive tree, and Israel, Jacob, was a natural branch. Seemingly God is now a respector of one person and one nation, a natural branch in Christ. So metaphor, not literal. God hated Esau for Esau's personal decision. God blessed Jacob for Jacob's personal decision.

I think you’re fundamentally missing aspects of the metaphor here.
‘Israel and Jacob’ are not really portrayed as ‘natural branches’. They are the tree connected to the holy root. It’s the Patriarchs, and their faith that makes ‘the tree’ Israel proper. The branches are individuals either cut off, or grafted onto the tree, that makes up the whole body of Christ.
And…I have not claimed the metaphor was literal. That would be why I called it a metaphor.

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History concludes national Israel continually made horrible decisions and paid the price over and over again. God did not come along and just say, "enough is enough, I will cast Israel off and now only allow Gentiles". That was Paul's metaphor to get thick headed Israel to see their plight of their own undoing. God has always allowed Gentiles and Israel to equally come to God to accept the Atonement by faith.

I have never said, or ever claimed the metaphor said, that only Gentiles are on ‘the tree’. What I DO say is that there is no indication, either in the metaphor, the passage as a whole, or elsewhere in scripture, that tells us that a day is coming when Jews and Gentiles will come to Christ separately.

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Some complain about dispensational teaching and the olive tree metaphor is the NT's biggest dispensational teaching if there ever was one. Many have run with it to extremes. Some who run with this dispensational thought, do so, while trashing dispensationalism, and are being hypocritical.

At the risk of being labelled a hypocrite…huh?
You’re claiming the olive tree metaphor…you know…the one that speaks directly to the church being one people…Jews and Gentiles being grafted onto the same tree IN Christ…is the ‘biggest’ teaching FOR Dispensationalism? When Dispensational teaching insists that actually, no…there’s coming a time when that tree is gonna have clearly defined branches?
Again…I ask for any sort of biblical passage that speaks of Jews and Gentiles coming to Christ (same source or root) but through different ‘trees’.

. BTW, I am not saying Paul is wrong, nor judging dispensational thought. It is a metaphor.

Wait, huh? YOU are not Dispensational…while arguing for several Dispensational thoughts?
Maybe I’ll go back to my original thought, which was: I have no real idea what your arguing for.
Maybe everything is a metaphor.

 

[Naomi25]

It is the whole church after the Second Coming. From Abel in the Garden, to those alive at the Second Coming instantly restored to being sons of God.

It is not a specific group from a specific time frame.

The Second Coming and rapture happened in the 6th Seal. That is why the whole complete, glorified church is mentioned in chapter 7 between the 6th and 7th Seal.

The 144k are still on earth, not glorified, but sealed, and are eternally sealed even after the 7th Seal is loosed and names start being removed. Those 144k can never be removed. I do not think they ever physically die either. When they were sealed, they lost Adam's corruptible flesh and were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. God would not seal anyone to remain in Adam's fallen flesh and blood to eternally be a sinner.

These 144k are the firstfruits and Christ the Prince's disciples for the future 1,000 year reign on earth. Just like Paul and the disciples were the firstfruits of the NT congregation for the next 1990+ years.

Oh boy. SO much supposition here, I feel like I need that word on a hot key.
Supposition - that the 144000 are given permanent incorruptible bodies, while still on earth. By the way, how can they be ‘not glorified’ when also given resurrected bodies? That makes no sense.
Supposition - when they are sealed they receive their incorruptible bodies as ‘God would not seal anyone to remain in Adam’s fallen flesh’. Is this ever said…anywhere?
Supposition - that the 144000 are Christ’s disciples for the future 1000 year reign. Not specifically stated in scripture at all…what we DO find in Rev is that WE have been made a kingdom, priests to his God and Father.

What I do agree with here is that it is likely the 6/7th seal describes Christ’s return…which is concurrent with the rapture.
And helps me somewhat place your doctrinal belief in this area. Ta.

 

[Naomi25]

Since you have not understood a word I posted and claim I am making up stuff and then totally misrepresenting my point, then I will just remain misunderstood.

I have not made the claims you are falsely accusing me of.

I of course, apologise if I have misrepresented you or misunderstood you. However;
In post #730 you state that: “Eve was taken out of Adam not even in the image of God. Of course if she was equal to Adam she would be an equal son of God in God's image..”

With this statement you seem to be missing certain ‘ipso facto’ issues. To claim that Eve does not share the ‘image of God’ is to claim she is not of inherent worth subscribed to all human life. You make her less than, equal to those who do NOT have ‘the image’. You make her equal to animals. You as much as admit it by saying that she was ‘not equal’ to him.

In other words…abortions of females? Not a problem. They have no inherent worth granted to all human life as ‘image bearers’. Abuse of women? Not a problem, because they are not of equal worth as men.

You may not have ‘claimed’ those things, but by insisting Eve does NOT share ‘the image of God’, this is the logical outworking and conclusion.

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The Scriptures say Adam was lonely.

"And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

"And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

How can man be lonely here when on the 6th day, they were not.

Actually, it seems scripture says that GOD said it ‘wasn’t good for the man to be alone’. In other words, it DOESN’T say Adam was lonely…only that God, in his wisdom, thought man needed a helper.
You keep saying ‘they’ in reference to ‘man’. Scripture speaks only of Adam, so any ideas about ‘the others’ is, again, supposition at best.

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"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

The Garden did not include all the seas and ocean. It did not include the whole earth and dominion of the whole earth. The Garden was a separate planting after the 7th Day of rest. God would not tell Adam to fill the earth, but then place him in a certain location and ask him to stay there by himself after the fact. Adam was by himself until Eve was taken out of Adam.

That is not making stuff up nor inserting thought into Scripture. It is a logical and valid interpretation. You obviously have a totally separate interpretation.

Except…we are not told God is addressing ALL mankind (should more exist at this point) with his instructions. He is, we are told, speaking to Adam and Eve. They will, no doubt, gain ‘dominion’ over all the earth and the oceans AS they multiply and fill the earth.

As to me holding a different interpretation…I’m actually not opposed to the notion that there MAY have been more humans created ‘in the beginning’. My issue is that we cannot make absolute claims of this based off the text…the text is not specific enough for that. I also differ to you in believing these ‘others’ were not fallen. Scripture TOTALLY doesn’t go there or allow us to assume anything of the sort.

 

[Taken]

One book of works separate from the Lamb's book of life, but now you have 3 books?

Scripture itself reveals MANY Books “men” wrote.
Scripture itself reveals BOOK-S attributed to “Heavenly” Accounting.
I put NO “NUMBER” of “HOW MANY” BOOKS are attributed to Heavenly Accounting. I simply implied, and hereby clarify, I believe there IS, MORE THAN ONE BOOK, attributed to “Heavenly” Accounting.

I am fully aware, that “the” Books, “men” were appointed to “write” and “Gods” Books, are EVIDENCE of intent and instruction and results as they APPLY to every freewill being’s (acts), of Gods creation.

The Atonement covered the whole world. No need for two separate books of those covered by the Atonement. No one has more Atonement than other humans.

I said nothing about one having “MORE” atonement than another...
The FACT has nothing to do with “MORE OR LESS”!
* The FACT has everything to do with.....”WHEN” atonement is established....For which particular individual...And WHY.

Not a big secret (to some); in brief, there EXISTS;
Atonement for past deeds.
Atonement repeatedly for future deeds, as they continue to occur.
Atonement for all deeds, and prevention of future deeds requiring atonement.
Atonement Before physical death.
Atonement At physical death.
Atonement Never.

Every individual has the FREEWILL option to hear, learn, and choose, Which “Atonement”, THEY desire to have APPLY to “them”, and then “DO” as Scripture instructs, FOR THEM to “RECEIVE” which Atonement “they Desire”.

The WHOLE WORLD “Atonement” OFFERING, is ONLY half of the equation!
The WHOLE WORLD, has NOT AGREED, NOT ACCEPTED the OFFERING.

An Offering is one thing....An Acceptance is another thing.
Gods Offering is one thing...A mans Acceptance is another thing.
There is NO AGREEMENT established, UNTIL an Offering is ACCEPTED.