When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[ScottA]

You do not get to override Jesus. Seriously. He verified Daniel was right. In case there was any doubt Revelation confirms the timing.

You misunderstand me. I did not suggest that Jesus was wrong at all, but confirmed it. You just don't understand what it is that Daniel spoke of, therefore you apparently believe the translations of men in their errors.

 

[dad]

That is unbridled presumption, and unrestrained judgmentalism. I just quoted the Scriptures brother. Don't use my quotation of Scriptures as an excuse to question my motives. We're having an honest disagreement. If your only defense is to attack my motives, you have nothing left to argue.

Don't blame me for mentioning that we are a work in progress, as much as some people seem to think their stuff doesn't stink. Methinks thous doest protest too much.

Jesus said his Kingdom was "near" while he was still on earth. I told you that, and you did nothing with it.

That was not His kingdom coming to earth so that it would be the same on earth as in heaven. Look around if you doubt it.

You had no answer for that. The Kingdom of God is now near for everyone.

Yes, in our hearts and lives. That is not what prophesy regarding the Rapture or the end time and return of Christ is about.

We're all close to our own personal and eternal judgment. That is the point--not that we're supposed to make prophetic calendars and divine timing schemes--we were basically told not to do that

It does not get any more divine than Jesus! He made the scheme. The people starting to see the thing HE spoke about are merely obeying by looking up knowing their physical redemption draws near.

. Rather, we are to be ready for the Kingdom throughout our lives, not in anticipation that it "can come at any time," but rather, because the only true way to prepare for the Kingdom is by living righteous lives *all the time!* He doesn't want us to be righteous just some of the time, but all the time.

No, rather we are to do what Jesus said.

Heck, you're not properly being prepared for God's Kingdom when you judge me, or when I judge you

Pointing out what Jesus said in not judging. It is a little thing called believing.

. But we're not going to suddenly be snatched with God's saying, "Gotcha!"

Paul disagrees by the Holy Spirit.

No, we're just being told to keep refining the way we live, repenting, becoming more humble, loving others, considering others better than ourselves. This is what makes us ready for the Kingdom. It's not a "I caught you" moment!

Looking up knowing it is now really on the way is not 'gottcha'. When He arrives for us that is according to Scripture very much Him getting us.

The beginning of Birth Pains were the signs in Jesus' generation of the soon coming destruction of Jerusalem. The signs were indicators that God was displeased with Israel, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, as well as the rumblings of coming war. This judgment was coming for unbelievers, and not for believers.

It was after He told them about the temple when He was asked about the end. You conflate what things are in question here.

And so, Jesus was warning his Disciples to get out when the Armies appear.

No. The abomination of desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet had to happen first. It did not happen then. Period.

He was also warning them to continue in him even though the whole nation was in a state of backsliding, and would go through an entire age of turmoil until God eventually restores the entire nation to righteousness.

That may be your opinion of what the Tribulation is, but it does not jive in any way with God's word.

This is purely a myth, brother. New believers do not pop up out of nowhere, with mature Christians no longer to be found!

I popped out of nowhere when I got saved. It did not tale years. Not even weeks. Not even days! There can be no question that multitudes get saved in the end.

They do not suddenly become mature Christians overnight, able to testify to the world and withstand the deceit of the enemy.

Says...who? If I was saved in those times and it was crystal clear that we could not take the mark of the beast, it would not take years of boring seminary to get me to realize what not to do!

The Church has required 2000 years to reach this planet for Christ.

You thought that happened?

Baby Christians are not going to do this without spiritual guidance in 3.5 years!

Hopefully what they do then will not be what the 'church' did!

You are getting your verse about the "worst Tribulation" wrong. It comes from the Olivet Discourse where Jesus was referring to "Jewish punishment" which would be the *longest* punishment in their history! Worse than the 70 years Babylonian Captivity, Israel would be weakened as a nation until the coming of the Messianic Kingdom.

The tribulation comes upon the whole world actually and affects the whole world, and the final ruler rules the whole world.

So you're defining the "worst Tribulation" wrong. Clearly, Luke 21 describes this as a *Jewish Punishment.* And it affected the backslidden nation as a whole, as well as Jewish believers who then lost their country along with acceptance by their own people.

The same things described in many parts of the bible are described actually. One should know that.

That was my point, that we go through times of God's wrath against nations even today, in one measure or another. But Christians are not therefore "gone" from the earth to avoid "God's Wrath!"

Not the wrath to come! That is a clear event and time. Spoken of by prophets for thousands of years. You may not conflate our trials and troubles and tribulations as per normal as being the same. Again you conflate scriptures showing a clear lack of comprehension.

I'm saying that the Scriptures define the Coming of Christ to establish God's Kingdom on earth as a single event, taking place in an "instant."

You could say Jack in the Beanstalk climbed down and bit Peter on the ankle also if you like. There are many things leading up to the day He returns to be seen by all with His saints as well as many things after. Your myopic view of Scripture is simply unsupportable.

1 Cor 15 describes our transformation as being in an instant.

Correct. It is. The question is what instant.

And that's obviously because in order to participate in Christ's Coming and Kingdom we must be changed. It all takes place in an instant, indicating that Christ's Coming is also in an instant, like lightning. You can read that in the Olivet Discourse.

Except you made that up. yes it is true, but there are other reasons also. One reason would be that we need to be changed to go up to meet Him and for the marriage feast in heaven. Etc etc. We do not know all of His reasons. Nor can you limit all of His reasons to one reason you grab out of your hat.
His coming is also fast, yes. So is the coming of His saints with Him! You seem to conflate coming and going as well.

 

[dad]

It is not for me to retrace your steps...but, here, this is from post #268:
I had already given you that order of events, but you denied it of me, and then through it back at me.

He did say what was in Luke before He rose up to heaven. Not sure what you problem is.

 

[dad]

You misunderstand me. I did not suggest that Jesus was wrong at all, but confirmed it. You just don't understand what it is that Daniel spoke of, therefore you apparently believe the translations of men in their errors.

False accusation. Prove it by showing what in Daniel you claim I do not understand.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Don't blame me for mentioning that we are a work in progress, as much as some people seem to think their stuff doesn't stink. Methinks thous doest protest too much.

I had a whole lot of things to say with a different perspective, and all based on Scriptures. But your response consists of a bunch of insulting quips, which informs me that you're not serious about having a discussion. There's no respect for my position. Thanks for trying.

 

[ScottA]

When discussing specific prophesy, one looks at the prophesies. Your trying to make prophesy fit into the first coming is unsound.

Not "into the first coming", but "soon", "this generation" soon.

 

[ScottA]

Incoherent babble...

As long as you are following the same pattern as Israel, why don't you just say I do this, "By the ruler of the demons?"

 

[ScottA]

Your claim of Blasphemy is your oponion, and that opinion is false, suggesting I deny the Lords death, burial, resurrection, or denying that it was a horrible time of pain upon my Lord Jesus Christ during his death

One thing I know, the Lords death didnt fulfill Matthew 24:21 as you claim

As clearly explained "Several Times" seen below

Your claim the Lords death, burial, resurrection, fulfilled Matthew 24:21 in the "great tribulation" has been clearly discredited, and isnt even hinted at in the scripture as seen in Matthew Chapter 24

You are wrong (and emotionally attached and driven). The scriptures--Jesus said, "soon", "this generation."

To the contrary, you say "future" while denying that there is no greater tribulation than that which Christ bore for the sins of the world. These things are anti-Christ. But, go ahead--keep it up.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are wrong (and emotionally attached and driven). The scriptures--Jesus said, "soon", "this generation."

To the contrary, you say "future" while denying that there is no greater tribulation than that which Christ bore for the sins of the world. These things are anti-Christ. But, go ahead--keep it up.

The word "Soon" isnt seen in the context of scripture below as you claim, it's a "Future" generation as scripture clearly teaches

The complete chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the signs that will precede the Lords return in the clouds of heaven as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

"This Generation" is referring to a ",Future" generation, that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and the Lords return "Future" unfulfilled

1.) What is near, even at the doors, "The Lords Return"

2.) What is the the day and hour no man knows, "The Lords Return"

Matthew 24:33-
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[Truth7t7]

To the contrary, you say "future" while denying that there is no greater tribulation than that which Christ bore for the sins of the world. These things are anti-Christ. But, go ahead--keep it up.

Nobody has denied that Jesus Christ suffered the cross of Calvary

However this suffering isnt associated to Matthew 24:21 whatsoever, as the Abomination of Desolation causes the great tribulation, Yes you disregad this and its association to humans on earth being instructed to flee Jerusalem/Judea

Erased in symbolic allegory of the Lords death being fulfillment of the great tribulation seen below, really

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[ScottA]

By all means, please explain the 42 months, and when or will they take place, waiting?

The 42 months, also referred to as 3.5 years...are "times"...also spoken of by Daniel (also eluded to in the scriptures, as "weeks"):

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. Daniel 7:25
​

Your 42 months is that "half a time."

That "half a time" is also translated elsewhere as "the dividing of time."

The entire passage refers to all of time, two separated times, divided on either side of Christ, between the Jews and the gentiles (the two folds that Christ must bring. This is the key to understanding all that was prophesied.

But notice also, that the pompous one is he who tries "to change times and law"...which changes you have fallen victim to, that I now speak against, but you reject. But remember...it is I who give all credit to Christ.

 

[dad]

I had a whole lot of things to say with a different perspective, and all based on Scriptures. But your response consists of a bunch of insulting quips, which informs me that you're not serious about having a discussion. There's no respect for my position. Thanks for trying.

I tend to agree about your position.

 

[Truth7t7]

The 42 months, also referred to as 3.5 years...are "times"...also spoken of by Daniel (also eluded to in the scriptures, as "weeks"):

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. Daniel 7:25
​

Your 42 months is that "half a time."

That "half a time" is also translated elsewhere as "the dividing of time."

The entire passage refers to all of time, two separated times, divided on either side of Christ, between the Jews and the gentiles (the two folds that Christ must bring. This is the key to understanding all that was prophesied.

But notice also, that the pompous one is he who tries "to change times and law"...which changes you have fallen victim to, that I now speak against, but you reject.

Scott are you 7th Day Adventist, curious?

 

[dad]

Not "into the first coming", but "soon", "this generation" soon.

So you accept that the last seven years of Daniel must come in the future?

 

[dad]

As long as you are following the same pattern as Israel, why don't you just say I do this, "By the ruler of the demons?"

More blather

 

[dad]

T


The entire passage refers to all of time, two separated times, divided on either side of Christ, between the Jews and the gentiles (the two folds that Christ must bring. This is the key to understanding all that was prophesied..

Yet it is given in days and weeks also.

 

[ScottA]

Non response in your opinion, without a scriptural argument

Your claim the Lords death, burial, resurrection, fulfilled Matthew 24:21 in the "great tribulation" has been clearly discredited, and isnt even hinted at in the scripture as seen in Matthew Chapter 24

I have both answered, and spoke the truth. Your rejection is on you.

 

[Truth7t7]

I have both answered, and spoke the truth. Your rejection is on you.

I Strongly Disagree, your claim the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary, is fulfillment of the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 isnt found in the scripture, irs nothing more than removal of the literal seen through symbolic allegory, and replacing it with something not seen

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

So you accept that the last seven years of Daniel must come in the future?

No such thing as Daniel's 7 years, where?

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Daniel 9:27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[ScottA]

Scott Just a few questions to understand your basic belief, greatly appreciate a "basic" direct response?

1.) Do you believe in a future "Literal" coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven Revelation 1:7 ?

2.) Do you believe in a future "Literal" immortal glorified body will be received 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 ?

3.) Do you believe in a future literal new heaven and earth Revelation 21:1-5 ?

It is not what I believe, but what I know. But again: The words are true, but your premise is off, therefore also your translation. But I will tell it how it truly is:

1. "Future" is an assumption made by those who Christ had not come to "a second time" Hebrews 9:28. Paul does not say "future", but "each in his own order." But he also assures that those whom had not seen Christ come "a second time", did not miss it--again, because it does not work that way, but rather He comes to "each in his own order." Likewise, "literal" is also assumed, the thinking of men ruled by the flesh rather than the Spirit. Men like to think that this world is literal--but it is not, but merely created. God is literal. So, when you ask about the coming of Jesus being "literal"...my answer is Yes--but not in the way you assume--not at all...and "not with observation" Luke 17:20. As for "coming in the clouds of heaven", you again assume the clouds of this world. "Literal" indeed!
2. By "a future "Literal" immortal glorified body"...this is not from God, but the teachings of men who do not know what they are talking about. No, the flesh is not "glorified"--God whom is spirit, is glorified, as was Jesus when He went to the Father. But many confuse Jesus' bodily resurrection from death in His body, with His ascension into heaven. They are two different events, and two different foreshadowings. His bodily resurrection in the flesh was not His ascension to the Father--which He said, "I have not yet ascended to My Father" John 20:17. Which was only to show that He had conquered death, and was not the "like manner" in which He would come again. But rather, His ascension was going to the Father, which flesh and blood "cannot inherit", and therefore must be in spirit, as God is spirit--this is the fullness of the glory of God. Thus, the "like manner" in which He returns, is in the glory of the Father...and "not with observation" as the world sees. But, go ahead, search the scriptures for a "glorified body"--it's not there.
3. Again, your definition of "literal" is as far off as this world is from heaven. So, Yes, but only according to the [actual] literal reality of God. But, No, to what you likely imagine. That worldly definition bound to the worldly elements is not at all accurate, for "the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat" 2 Peter 3:12.