When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[No Pre-TB]

We Disagree, the scripture teaches "Absent From The Body" representing physical death, and at this time the believer is present with the Lord

No further response will be given, the horse is way dead

We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Corinthians 5:8KJV
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Who is “we”? It’s just you and I.

So, your understanding is that you’re “willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord” equals at death you go immediately to heaven? I’m sorry, the context is receiving the heavenly tent of immortality which all of us want but that doesn’t mean the same as when we die we go immediately to heaven. Feel free to not respond. For me, I’d prefer to seek knowledge than remain in ignorance. At the very least I’d seek to find a better reason.

-Blessings

 

[ScottA]

We Disagree, Matthew 24:15-27 clearly shows at the time of Daniel's Abomination, this "Starts" the time of trouble seen in "Great Tribulation", a far cry from a claim of the Lords death, burial, resurrection

That one statement alone--is blasphemous!

He took upon Himself the sins of all the world--great and small...and you make light of it. You belittle Him. Why should I even continue to tolerate you--to give you gifts?!

The church on earth is instructed to flee Jerusalem/Judea, the Church is warned of false Christ's and prophets performing signs and wonders

No!

You say the words, but do not understand-- Judea, is not "the church", but is Israel. All that you believe is off by the same measure. But will you own this grave error--and receive the truth? Thus far, you are not tracking well at all.

Scott how can you state that which is seen below, is representative of the death, burial, resurrection, of Jesus Christ

For "Then" shall be great tribulation, after Daniel's Abomination takes place

Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:15-27KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Because I know there is no greater tribulation than that suffered by Christ..."nor ever shall be."

 

[ScottA]

No response to the claims seen below, in a complete diversion in distraction

The complete chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the signs that will precede the Lords return in the clouds of heaven as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

"This Generation" is referring to a ",Future" generation, that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and the Lords return "Future" unfulfilled

1.) What is near, even at the doors, "The Lords Return"

2.) What is the the day and hour no man knows, "The Lords Return"

Matthew 24:33-
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

It is not my diversion (I diverted only to the truth), but your own basic premise that is off.

It was not a diversion--I was attempting to stop you from going over that cliff...but here you are going over it again, but have not reckoned with your own contradiction of terms:

"This generation", "future generation." --That is not even good English.
​

Go back and reckon with this great error. Until you do--you remain out in the weeds. Then...I will be happy to discuss these details. But being so far off--you will not find the truth until you return.

 

[Cassandra]

That one statement alone--is blasphemous!

He took upon Himself the sins of all the world--great and small...and you make light of it. You belittle Him. Why should I even continue to tolerate you--to give you gifts?!
No!

You say the words, but do not understand-- Judea, is not "the church", but is Israel. All that you believe is off by the same measure. But will you own this grave error--and receive the truth? Thus far, you are not tracking well at all.
Because I know there is no greater tribulation than that suffered by Christ..."nor ever shall be."

the Great Tribulation is for God's people to go through-- . Truth7t7 has said nothing blasphemous. He did not make light of what Christ has done for us. All of us know that we could have never suffered what Christ suffered.
If you would remove your anger, you would be able to see what he said. .

"Why should I even continue to tolerate you--to give you gifts?!" Wow!What a snotz statement! You sound like an Emperor!

 

[ScottA]

Your claim the Lords death, burial, resurrection, fulfilled Matthew 24:21 in the "great tribulation" has been clearly discredited, and isnt even hinted at in the scripture as seen in Matthew Chapter 24

No, but it is your imagination that has lead you to believe what is not even how God operates. You are acting like, and making the same mistake, as Israel who expected a conquering king, and rejected a Lamb.

 

[dad]

I told you you had it out of order, and gave you the proper order...now you deny it, but finish with agreeing that order I told you was correct.

You are going to have to do better than that.

Show the quote. Then we can clear up your misunderstanding on this issue

 

[ScottA]

Gods words of truth clearly teach, the future human man (The Beast) will be given 42 months or 3.5 years

Revelation 13:5KJV
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The words are true, but your premise is off, therefore also your translation.

 

[dad]

That is the translation and teachings of men. Not the truth.

You do not get to override Jesus. Seriously. He verified Daniel was right. In case there was any doubt Revelation confirms the timing.

 

[ScottA]

It appears that the writing has elevated itself as the pinnacle of truth above all, and its void of scripture to support its claims?

Not at all. Read again the gospels and see the scriptures quoted-- they are quoted correctly, but not all of them as men saw them. Nothing is new.

 

[dad]

Indeed it does. But you do not understand the architecture...and project your shortcomings on me. How will you come to know all truth if you reject every revelation just as those who went before?

This is not a debate.

When discussing specific prophesy, one looks at the prophesies. Your trying to make prophesy fit into the first coming is unsound.

 

[dad]

Again...you speak of the teachings of men, but do not understand the architecture just as those who went before. You are doing exactly what those of Jesus' time did, not thinking a carpenter's son could be God with us, or expecting a Lyon instead of a Lamb. Is it not when and what you least expect...just as you were warned?

Your expressed expectations in these last posts are your Lyon version of what you imagine and believe...but I have told you of the Lamb version according to the true architecture of God...and you make the same mistake as Israel. Would you rather I only told you what your ears want to hear?

Incoherent babble...

 

[Truth7t7]

That one statement alone--is blasphemous!

He took upon Himself the sins of all the world--great and small...and you make light of it. You belittle Him. Why should I even continue to tolerate you--to give you gifts?!
No!

You say the words, but do not understand-- Judea, is not "the church", but is Israel. All that you believe is off by the same measure. But will you own this grave error--and receive the truth? Thus far, you are not tracking well at all.
Because I know there is no greater tribulation than that suffered by Christ..."nor ever shall be."

Your claim of Blasphemy is your oponion, and that opinion is false, suggesting I deny the Lords death, burial, resurrection, or denying that it was a horrible time of pain upon my Lord Jesus Christ during his death

One thing I know, the Lords death didnt fulfill Matthew 24:21 as you claim

As clearly explained "Several Times" seen below

Your claim the Lords death, burial, resurrection, fulfilled Matthew 24:21 in the "great tribulation" has been clearly discredited, and isnt even hinted at in the scripture as seen in Matthew Chapter 24

 

[Truth7t7]

The words are true, but your premise is off, therefore also your translation.

By all means, please explain the 42 months, and when or will they take place, waiting?

 

[dad]

I quoted Scriptures. Sorry you don't like them!

Having a truck in the truckwash does not mean it is already clean.

I don't think you understand the concept. We are not supposed to *time* when the eschatological Kingdom will happen.

Jesus did that. He told us when we start to see the signs, boom. It is near. Period.

Jesus clearly denied that. We're not supposed to try to anticipate the times and the seasons, which are in the hands of God.

He clearly gave the times. The times when we are to know our redemption is near are exactly when we start to see the things He spoke about.

Rather, he said that the Kingdom had already drawn near in his own time, precisely because the Kingdom was near in his own presence.

Great. That did not mean He had returned to rule the world with His saints. I kid you not. Nor did it mean were were already taken in the air. Nor did it mean the antichrist had ruled for several years and was now in the lake of fire. Nor did it mean we had immortal bodies yet...etc.

When things go from bad to worse we are to look to him in heaven, because it is his presence that makes the coming of his Kingdom near.

The issue is His kingdom coming to earth. Notice it is not done here as in heaven yet?

We are to be encouraged when we look at various events, knowing that all these things are leading to his Coming.

Great. You are almost getting the point.

I didn't miss anything. The opening of the seals lead to the coming of Christ's Kingdom. It is the coming of Christ that brings eternal wrath to men. Punishments do precede his Coming in the present age, and presage the eternal wrath to be poured out at his Coming. The punishments on earth that precede his coming are but a segue to the coming eternal judgment to take place at Christ's coming.

His coming brings love and laughter and peace everafter to men on earth. His wrath rids the earth of a lot of people and demons etc so that can happen.

God's wrath is defined as God's punishment, which often means a transition to eternal death.

You can define things as you like. The bible says the things in the end like the seals are the wrath of God. That settles it.

When Christians go through periods of time in which the world is being punished, it does not mean that God is punishing Christians!

The Tribulation is not such a time. The world at that time is unlike anything ever seen before. We are not punished there though since He did not appoint us to wrath, and promised to raise us to meet Him. The new believers of that time, after this, will experience that wrath, they are appointed to be there. Even though He helps them and protects them a lot, and many of them will be killed, they need to be there.

We are not experiencing "God's Wrath" in these times.

The real church, or Bride would not be here if we were. When His wrath does come we will not experience it either.

Suffering the persecution of Antichrist does not meant the saints are experiencing "God's Wrath!"

They are living here in the days of wrath. How much they experience is debatable. It will not be a time of sweetness and light.

Do you need a verse for that? Try reading the book of Jeremiah. He went through the full wrath of God being poured out on disobedient Israel in the time of the Babylonian invasion.

That was a specific place and people that did evil who were being dealt with by God. That was not the whole world. That was not the specific several years in the end of time. Obviously.

It is just as apparent in the book of Revelation that the saints persecuted by Antichrist are treated with honor and dignity--not as Pretribbers describe them, as having "missed the Rapture due to their lack of vigilance."

I never said that. It is not the lack of works that made them miss the Rapture train. It was not being saved and His child. So if the remaining 'churches' in that day are still here they better get saved!

The "Rapture" takes place in an instant. We rise within the course of a single second, obtain new bodies, and return with Christ to establish his Kingdom on earth.

Yeah, we get it. Some call that the yo yo theory.
During the time the Bride is having the marriage supper in heaven, back on earth we see that that great power that traded worldwide and corrupted the world is getting totally burned up and destroyed. After that nation or power is judged there are still nations around and etc etc. That means Jesus did not return yet to earth with us.

It's just that we need new glorified bodies to engage in this procedure together with Christ--we cannot do it in our old mortal bodies. We return with Christ because "in an instant" we are transformed to immortality so that we may participate in his Coming and in his Coming Kingdom. That's how we Return with him!

You made that up though. Show the verse it says we return in an instant? We actually are raised in an instant. Then you accuse others of having it backwards?

You have trouble understanding how this can all happen in a second? You want to engineer the process, and ensure there is time to go up and to come down? This is God we're talking about!

Looking at all that is set to happen around this time, as mentioned above, such as the marriage in heaven, there is no instant available here except inside your head.

Nothing about this is an explanation from an engineering, or a navigational, point of view. That is clearly missing the point. It is the purpose of these events that is being referred to--not *How* it will happen!

Who mentioned engineering but you?

 

[Truth7t7]

No, but it is your imagination that has lead you to believe what is not even how God operates. You are acting like, and making the same mistake, as Israel who expected a conquering king, and rejected a Lamb.

Non response in your opinion, without a scriptural argument

Your claim the Lords death, burial, resurrection, fulfilled Matthew 24:21 in the "great tribulation" has been clearly discredited, and isnt even hinted at in the scripture as seen in Matthew Chapter 24

 

[Truth7t7]

The words are true, but your premise is off, therefore also your translation.

Scott Just a few questions to understand your basic belief, greatly appreciate a "basic" direct response?

1.) Do you believe in a future "Literal" coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven Revelation 1:7 ?

2.) Do you believe in a future "Literal" immortal glorified body will be received 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 ?

3.) Do you believe in a future literal new heaven and earth Revelation 21:1-5 ?

 

[Truth7t7]

Not at all. Read again the gospels and see the scriptures quoted-- they are quoted correctly, but not all of them as men saw them. Nothing is new.

Scott it's your "opinion", and this same "opinion" believes and teaches that the Lords death fulfilled the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 thats error

You give complete disregard to the context of scripture clearly showing Daniel's Abomination is causing great tribulation upon mortal humans on earth, as if the scripture is non-existent and your claims represent truth

The death of Jesus Christ isnt seen or referenced in Matthew chapter 24, but you have added this concept into the text that's not seen, "Why"?

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

Having a truck in the truckwash does not mean it is already clean.

That is unbridled presumption, and unrestrained judgmentalism. I just quoted the Scriptures brother. Don't use my quotation of Scriptures as an excuse to question my motives. We're having an honest disagreement. If your only defense is to attack my motives, you have nothing left to argue.

Jesus did that. He told us when we start to see the signs, boom. It is near. Period.

Jesus said his Kingdom was "near" while he was still on earth. I told you that, and you did nothing with it. You had no answer for that. The Kingdom of God is now near for everyone. We're all close to our own personal and eternal judgment. That is the point--not that we're supposed to make prophetic calendars and divine timing schemes--we were basically told not to do that. Rather, we are to be ready for the Kingdom throughout our lives, not in anticipation that it "can come at any time," but rather, because the only true way to prepare for the Kingdom is by living righteous lives *all the time!* He doesn't want us to be righteous just some of the time, but all the time.

Heck, you're not properly being prepared for God's Kingdom when you judge me, or when I judge you. But we're not going to suddenly be snatched with God's saying, "Gotcha!" No, we're just being told to keep refining the way we live, repenting, becoming more humble, loving others, considering others better than ourselves. This is what makes us ready for the Kingdom. It's not a "I caught you" moment!

He clearly gave the times. The times when we are to know our redemption is near are exactly when we start to see the things He spoke about.

The beginning of Birth Pains were the signs in Jesus' generation of the soon coming destruction of Jerusalem. The signs were indicators that God was displeased with Israel, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, as well as the rumblings of coming war. This judgment was coming for unbelievers, and not for believers. And so, Jesus was warning his Disciples to get out when the Armies appear. He was also warning them to continue in him even though the whole nation was in a state of backsliding, and would go through an entire age of turmoil until God eventually restores the entire nation to righteousness.

The Tribulation is not such a time. The world at that time is unlike anything ever seen before. We are not punished there though since He did not appoint us to wrath, and promised to raise us to meet Him. The new believers of that time, after this, will experience that wrath, they are appointed to be there. Even though He helps them and protects them a lot, and many of them will be killed, they need to be there.

This is purely a myth, brother. New believers do not pop up out of nowhere, with mature Christians no longer to be found! They do not suddenly become mature Christians overnight, able to testify to the world and withstand the deceit of the enemy. The Church has required 2000 years to reach this planet for Christ. Baby Christians are not going to do this without spiritual guidance in 3.5 years!

You are getting your verse about the "worst Tribulation" wrong. It comes from the Olivet Discourse where Jesus was referring to "Jewish punishment" which would be the *longest* punishment in their history! Worse than the 70 years Babylonian Captivity, Israel would be weakened as a nation until the coming of the Messianic Kingdom.

So you're defining the "worst Tribulation" wrong. Clearly, Luke 21 describes this as a *Jewish Punishment.* And it affected the backslidden nation as a whole, as well as Jewish believers who then lost their country along with acceptance by their own people.

The real church, or Bride would not be here if we were. When His wrath does come we will not experience it either.
They are living here in the days of wrath...

That was my point, that we go through times of God's wrath against nations even today, in one measure or another. But Christians are not therefore "gone" from the earth to avoid "God's Wrath!"

You made that up though. Show the verse it says we return in an instant? We actually are raised in an instant.

I'm saying that the Scriptures define the Coming of Christ to establish God's Kingdom on earth as a single event, taking place in an "instant." 1 Cor 15 describes our transformation as being in an instant. And that's obviously because in order to participate in Christ's Coming and Kingdom we must be changed. It all takes place in an instant, indicating that Christ's Coming is also in an instant, like lightning. You can read that in the Olivet Discourse.

 

[ScottA]

the Great Tribulation is for God's people to go through-- . Truth7t7 has said nothing blasphemous. He did not make light of what Christ has done for us. All of us know that we could have never suffered what Christ suffered.
If you would remove your anger, you would be able to see what he said. .

"Why should I even continue to tolerate you--to give you gifts?!" Wow!What a snotz statement! You sound like an Emperor!

I already explained and compared 7's expectations of something less, as being an offence to Christ, which is true--no tribulation "ever shall be" greater than what He has suffered and does suffer still among us.

But if you want to join with those who do not lift Christ up in this regard--so be it. But I caution you: You have not corrected me, but I have corrected him; and if I speak the words of the Holy Spirit as it has been foretold--your criticism is not against me, but Him.

 

[ScottA]

Show the quote. Then we can clear up your misunderstanding on this issue

It is not for me to retrace your steps...but, here, this is from post #268:

I did nothing of the foolish sort. He spoke the words in Luke before He went up to heaven obviously.

I had already given you that order of events, but you denied it of me, and then through it back at me.