When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[ScottA]

That future time is a separate event from the ministry of Christ on earth.

Says who?

Prove it.

 

[ScottA]

No. That was not in the Tribulation period, was not worldwide, and at the end of the Tribulation the risen Christ from heaven comes back to earth. You are not even in the ballpark.

Read it again--it says "over all the land."

And you are wrong about the rest too. But why go there just yet? You have it wrong from the start.

 

[ScottA]

We are not close enough to have a rational discussion on these matters since you think the Trib was history and etc

Indeed we are not close enough. But it is only because you do not accredit Christ with having suffered all. Only when you do that, will all truth be given to you.

 

[ScottA]

I Disagree with your suggestion that the death, burial, resurrection, of Jesus fulfilled the "Great Tribilation" seen in Matthew 24:21 below in symbolic allegory.

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination causes the "Great Tribulation" it is giving the sign and the instruction to the Church on earth to flee Jerusalem/Judea, it is speaking to literal to flesh of men, and the days being shortened

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

By Jesus' own word, there is nothing greater. There is only one event in all the history of the world that meets that criteria.

Sorry you don't see it, but look for something more.

There is nothing more.

 

[ScottA]

The complete chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the signs that will precede the Lords return in the clouds of heaven as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

"This Generation" is referring to a ",Future" generation, that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and the Lords return "Future" unfulfilled

1.) What is near, even at the doors, "The Lords Return"

2.) What is the the day and hour no man knows, "The Lords Return"

Matthew 24:33-
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

"This generation", "future generation." --That is not even good English.

You really don't see the error in that??

 

[ScottA]

The actual meaning of taken and left are the opposite to your belief. Those who are left are left alive. Those who are taken are thrown into the lake of fire. Just like the flood. Those who were taken were destroyed.

Matthew:
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Luke:
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

You left out those taken aboard the ark.

But, no, it is the saved, the born again of the spirit of God who are taken, that "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

And those left of flesh and blood are rather destroyed and "the elements will melt with fervent heat", as is the earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Keeping ourselves pure? I thought what made us pure was the blood of Jesus. How do you top that?

Rom 7.14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
1 John 3.3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
1 Tim 5.22 ...Keep yourself pure.
Phil 2.14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”

As you can see, keeping yourself pure is biblical and does not contradict our need to be purified by the blood of Jesus. We accept him as the source of our purification. Unless we choose him we will not be purified.

Not rewarded with salvation. That is the gift of God. He paid for it. He will reward us according to our works , yes, that is not getting ready for the Rapture though. Works is doing what we can for Him who did it all for us.
You seem to associate that with being ready to meet Him in the air?
He told us to look up, what would you call that, not anticipating?!

Yes, it means to look to your source of righteousness, in heaven. I'll give you the Scriptures again on this...

Col 3.1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

We cannot look expecting something to happen when we don't know when it will happen. It's like waiting for a bus and not knowing the schedule. You could literally sit there for hours, or even for days, if that bus run had been aborted.

Our expectation is belief that he *will* come, and that he will come to reward those who are righteous and judge those who are not. We look to heaven in anticipation of an event without trying to anticipate when it will happen. In fact we were told not to try to anticipate times and seasons.

Acts 1.7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

No, He is saying we are not appointed to wrath actually. Ready or not here He comes!

The Reign of Antichrist, however, is not "God's Wrath!" That is Dispensationalism speaking--not the Bible. The Wrath of God is what comes to bring *eternal judgment* to men! The persecuted saints are worthy of honor--they are not suffering God's Wrath!

Rev 20.4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Does this sound like people who just suffered the Wrath of God? I don't think so!

His return to earth with us is after the man of sin does his thing. What goes up must come down. We go up, then we come back down later with Him. Paul told us about that mystery. There are many who cannot see it.

Pretribulationists speak as if the Rapture is an engineered program--1st you go up, then you have a marriage supper, then you come back with Christ. In reality, going up and coming down takes place in an instant. We are going to meet him at his descent. We greet him in the clouds in a moment of time, receiving new glorified bodies, so that we may also descend with him in the same moment in time. It is in a "twinkling of an eye."

The Great Tribulation to come actually will be unlike anything ever in history or even the future! (as for 'christian nations' I'll leave

The Great Tribulation, according to Jesus, was the NT history of the Jewish People, who he said would suffer the loss of their homeland and the loss of their theocracy, until he comes again with his Kingdom. It was primarily a Jewish experience Jesus spoke of, although the same principle can be applied to Christian nations who also abandon their theocracies.

We can talk about it later, if you like. I've been through all of these beliefs in my life. You may or may not be open to how others think?

 

[dad]

You just put Jesus's ascension before Him speaking of great tribulations.

But, no, that is in the wrong order. This is the proper order: First He spoke of great tribulation, then the greatest tribulation--all tribulations--the complete wrath of God came upon Jesus, then He rose from the dead, and ascended to be with the Father.

If you do not have that right, Daniel will be wrong also.

I did nothing of the foolish sort. He spoke the words in Luke before He went up to heaven obviously.

 

[dad]

Tell me...what is more great than the abomination of Christ crucified--which takes away of the sacrifice, the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world?

But again...your compass should have pointed you to Christ. Therefore you are groping in the dark.

Sorry if you actually think that the Great Trib was thousands of years ago. You need to have some inkling of the basics before debating.

 

[dad]

Indeed He did.

Right, and that means that there is 3 and a half years time involved for the tribulation.

 

[dad]

Read it again--it says "over all the land."

And you are wrong about the rest too. But why go there just yet? You have it wrong from the start.

The Tribulation period involves world wide things. The AC, the plagues, etc etc. Again, you need some minute modicum of understanding of the bible to debate these things.

 

[dad]

Indeed we are not close enough. But it is only because you do not accredit Christ with having suffered all. Only when you do that, will all truth be given to you.

The Tribulation is a timed event in the end of the world that has a plethora of specific events in a certain sequence. Revelation is a revealing Of Jesus. The things that were, and are and that will be. You conflate these in such an obtuse way that we need to ask what you are doing pretending to debate here?

 

[dad]

Rom 7.14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
1 John 3.3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
1 Tim 5.22 ...Keep yourself pure.
Phil 2.14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”

As you can see, keeping yourself pure is biblical and does not contradict our need to be purified by the blood of Jesus. We accept him as the source of our purification. Unless we choose him we will not be purified.

We are being tried and purified. Sorry if you thought you made it.

Yes, it means to look to your source of righteousness, in heaven. I'll give you the Scriptures again on this...

Col 3.1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory

We cannot look expecting something to happen when we don't know when it will happen. It's like waiting for a bus and not knowing the schedule. You could literally sit there for hours, or even for days, if that bus run had been aborted.

He took great pains to tell us what would happen. How could you say you don't know? What will happen is that in a moment, we will be changed and raised.

Our expectation is belief that he *will* come, and that he will come to reward those who are righteous and judge those who are not. We look to heaven in anticipation of an event without trying to anticipate when it will happen. In fact we were told not to try to anticipate times and seasons.

Those who see, as He said, these things BEGIN to happen are not anticipating any more. They have seen and act accordingly.

Acts 1.7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

It IS for those seeing the signs JESUS mentioned to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their redemption draws near.

The Reign of Antichrist, however, is not "God's Wrath!" That is Dispensationalism speaking--not the Bible. The Wrath of God is what comes to bring *eternal judgment* to men! The persecuted saints are worthy of honor--they are not suffering God's Wrath!

Yes it is. The seals are wrath as is the Tribulation. It says so in case you missed it.

Rev 20.4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Does this sound like people who just suffered the Wrath of God? I don't think so!

Yes. It does. Since they died in the Tribulation. What, just because people die you think that means it could not be in the time of the wrath of God!?

Pretribulationists speak as if the Rapture is an engineered program--1st you go up, then you have a marriage supper, then you come back with Christ. In reality, going up and coming down takes place in an instant.

Chapter and verse for that false claim you made up?

We are going to meet him at his descent. We greet him in the clouds in a moment of time, receiving new glorified bodies, so that we may also descend with him in the same moment in time. It is in a "twinkling of an eye."

So when it says He comes with His saints you think that actually means that He doesn't?

The Great Tribulation, according to Jesus, was the NT history of the Jewish People, who he said would suffer the loss of their homeland and the loss of their theocracy, until he comes again with his Kingdom

Except that is made up whole of cloth and Jesus said nothing of the sort.

. It was primarily a Jewish experience Jesus spoke of, although the same principle can be applied to Christian nations who also abandon their theocracies.

There is a multitude no man could number who are saved at the end of the Tribulation. Those are not a majority of Jews! There are no Christian nations. Seriously??

We can talk about it later, if you like. I've been through all of these beliefs in my life. You may or may not be open to how others think?

The issue is not how many times you totally misunderstood.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I would think that restoring is a process that starts when Jesus returns. When the heavens and earth are made new, well, I figure it is done.

To the other part of your question, He comes from heaven with us. I see no reason why we would be left in heaven when He returns with His saints, do you?

It is difficult to think the times of restoration would be in the trumpets, if things are bad. We hardly get the picture of restoration but rather things being removed. If that’s the case, how could Jesus leave heaven to raise the dead 7 years before the times of restoration?

To respond to the second question:
Perhaps we are not in heaven as No apostle has ever taught not to worry, we’ll see our loved ones again in “heaven.” But it has been taught that all man die once, the next thing after death is the judgment. How are we in heaven, if the judgment is reserved for a specific day? Is there a verse that says “when people die, we go “immediately to heaven” before a judgment?

 

[No Pre-TB]

Dad,

Im sure you’ve answered these questions on past threads, but Is still like to ask. Sometimes we get different responses from different people and it can help in understanding.

You mentioned above, in your reply to Randy Kluth, that the seals are wrath. A few points I want to make.

1. Seals are never said to hold/have wrath in any scripture ever found from various theologians throughout history.
2. A seal protects the contents. Why would wrath protect a deed per se? Rather, the seal would protect from the wrath.
3. Wrath or anger is not shown when Christ opens the seals. The angels, the 4 living beasts or the 24 elders don’t even mention any dread coming before he opens it.
4. The first time we see the word “wrath”, is after the 6th seal is opened and for that verse, the great day of the lord has come. It’s about to happen or is near. It hasn’t happened yet.
5. Which is why my 5th point, the 5th seal martyrs cry out when will you avenge us? If it were God’s wrath, why would they ask when it’s going to happen?
6. If the seals are God’s wrath, wouldn’t the 144k be sealed before it instead of after it?
7. What of Joel? The sun will turn to darkness, the moon to blood before…the DotL. Not after.
8. Isaiah 2:12-19 states the Day of the Lord happens after they go into the rocks etc which is after the 6th seal is opened. It also states that’s when God “rises”. Wouldn’t they hide from the wrath at the first seal and not the last seal if it were so?
9. God’s judgment is demonstrated before the first trumpet when fire from the alter is thrown to the earth symbolizing that judgment. Where is any symbol of a judgment like this before the seals are opened?
10. In the Trumpets and Bowls we’re told beforehand this is God’s judgment or outpoured wrath. We are told warnings as well in them: Patient endurance of the saints, do not take the mark, always watch, repent, give Glory to God, do not let others see your nakedness etc. But none of that is mentioned in Rev 5 or during the initial seals.
11. Saints are still on earth during the seals.
12. God only had to explain to John what the seals were, because he couldn’t explain it with only beginning at the 1st Trumpet. Because he has to explain that angels were given them those trumpets and that they had to seal his servants before hand. And that he would rise because of the 6th seal. And because he mentioned the 6th, he’d have to explain the other 5. And if he has to explain the 5, he needs to explain the scroll that’s sealed, how he got it and the throne scene in heaven. With that said, has God used or can he use famine, war or disease as a means to bring people to him? And does he use things in the world to correct sin, to admonish or to spank, as it were, even his own when they need to be corrected?

Matthew 13:21 says that tribulation and persecution rises (in relation to us) because of the word of God. Not because he’s wrathful. We are like sheep for the slaughter. We lay down our life for him. We are not to fear man who can kill our body but not our soul.

-Blessings

 

[amigo de christo]

Putin has no choice, he dosent want Ukraine to join NATO, and have a missile base on his border staring at his military fleet in Crimea?

What would the the US do if Russia or China moved to place missiles on the Mexican border, staring at San Diego in the Naval fleet, same difference?

Putin is asking for a treaty on Ukraine not joining NATO, that's what I've seen?

We must press onwards in the Lord my friend . The nations will do as the nations will do and the Good Lord is in control .
Wars and rumors of wars and hard times were all foretold would arise near the end .
Let all hope in GOD and endure faithful to the end . A wonderful home awaits the lambs at the end of our faith .

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, ROFL, I cited different verses, the actual one taken and one left scriptures. YOU posted the wrong verses.

As I said, they are synoptic. The point I was making was the interpretation of took/taken shows it is not positive, it is negative - destroyed.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

paralambano does not mean to be destroyed. paralambano is the rapture as mentioned here:

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (second coming reference), and receive you (paralambano) unto myself (rapture reference); that where I am, there ye may be also.

Mat_24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken (paralambano), and the other left.
Mat_24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (paralambano), and the other left.

And what does destroyed mean?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You left out those taken aboard the ark.

But, no, it is the saved, the born again of the spirit of God who are taken, that "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

And those left of flesh and blood are rather destroyed and "the elements will melt with fervent heat", as is the earth.

The synoptic word is took in Matthew, and destroyed in Luke. They are both quoting Jesus.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The synoptic word is took in Matthew, and destroyed in Luke. They are both quoting Jesus.

Have to agree with 1st Cent. Lady with the Synoptics she quoted.
Matthew 24:39 says the flood takes away the wicked. In verse 40, it is immediately explained 1 is taken and 1 left. The taken is by the flood (the wicked). The one left is preserved