When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[dad]

The belief of a 'rapture to heaven' has many serious faults.
Firstly; the 'harpazo' of 1 Thess 4:17, happens after Jesus has left heaven, on His way to earth. So those who go up to meet Him do not go to heaven, but to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16-21

We go up to heaven to be with Him there. It does not say He comes down to earth to rule here.

Then, the many people in heaven, Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 15:2, are the souls of all the people killed for their faith, since Stephen; in the first Century. They are allowed to cry out at special times.

In Rev 15:2 it points out that the people in heaven were victorious over the beast. That means they were from the end time.
While I really wouldn't question that the group included martyrs of old, Rev also seems to indicate their death was recent.
Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Why would Steven and other martyrs be specifically wanting judgment on those that now (at that time) dwell on earth?

Also the idea of living people in heaven is totally refuted by Jesus; John 3:13, + many others.

Martyrs are not people? We are not people when we go in the air? John 3:3 is about being saved right here, by the way and being born of the spirit. In all your points you are truly refuted.

Finally; it is the armies of heaven who accompany Jesus at His Return, Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

It spells out that He comes with His saints. Again you are not even in the realm of being close to the truth.

 

[ScottA]

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This verse says when we start or begin to see these things, that is when we look up for our redemption. That does seem to mean the Rapture, because if the 'things' just started there is a lot of things yet to happen! Yet our redemption is at the doors here.
Today we do see these things start to happen. The nations that will attack Israel are in line, the worldwide credit system of the mark is beginning to be set up. Earthquakes, pestilences, the waves of people all over the world roaring, fear etc. But even if there are some who deny we are starting to see these things, the fact remains that it is when we begin to see them that OUR redemption draws very near.

Yes, these are signs of the times. But what have you not seen?

 

[ScottA]

What Luke 21:25-26 is prophesying, is the forthcoming Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.
We see in Revelation 15:1 and Matthew 24:29-30, that the Lords wrath is over before Jesus Returns.

So; Luke 21:27 Then; we will see Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory.
This must be some time after His terrible Day of wrath.

That is good--but "at an hour you do not expect."

 

[ScottA]

There are no alive saints coming back in the Second Coming. They are here on earth.

This is true...but with the understanding that "the living in Christ" also includes the living (alive in the Spirit) who have already come to the end of their days on earth, as well as those "alive and remaining."

Each is taken "each in his own order." This is also what Christ referred to, saying, "one shall be taken and one left", which refers rather to the Spirit being taken, but the flesh being left.

 

[dad]

Yes, these are signs of the times. But what have you not seen?

Well, if these have started, the Rapture must be near.

 

[ScottA]

Well, if these have started, the Rapture must be near.

Yes...but what have you not seen? I would like to address each one at a time.

 

[farouk]

I don't see TV events being linked directly with the rapture. More likely, events on earth gradually unfold in relation to the situation to be on earth after the church has gone. So we don't need to keep being vexed about the news; rather, we can peacefully pursue our testimony activities, knowing that the Lord is always in control and working our His gracious purposes.

 

[dad]

Yes...but what have you not seen? I would like to address each one at a time.

It does seem like some have started. Here is one I would say has not really happened yet
Luke 21:11
And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Dad,

Does the Lord descend from heaven with believers (who were in heaven) or does he descend from heaven and the dead rise from their graves in the earth?

Acts 3:21 says Christ stays in heaven till the restoration of all things. When are all things restored? Before the wrath or after it?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes...but what have you not seen? I would like to address each one at a time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[ScottA]

It does seem like some have started. Here is one I would say has not really happened yet
Luke 21:11
And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Okay. These things foretold also included great tribulation...which I only bring up as a point of reference. Now, the great tribulation was to be "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." Which I would challenge you to name a greater tribulation that was placed upon Jesus for the sins of the world, past, present, and future--but remember, as a timeframe, the parameters are "until this time" to "ever shall be"...meaning possibly, "soon", "quickly", during "this generation"...but not at "the end." So the idea that it is some other major future event that tops that of the price paid for the salvation of the whole world...is really not in accordance with Jesus' indications of the timing, nor does it give Him credit for having endured the greatest of all tribulations which "ever shall be." Okay, so that is one of the signs, and its timeframe--which is not what you will hear from anyone but Jesus...well, and a few hints for the apostles, and what I am now telling you.

As for "fearful sights and great signs from heaven", how about people "coming up out of their graves", or "darkness from the sixth hour to the ninth hour over all the land", or a great "rock-splitting earthquake", or "the veil being torn from top to bottom"--or Jesus rising from the dead, and His ascension into heaven?

So...we can choose to believe what men say and their teachings...or we can believe Jesus, and give Him all the credit.

I see the truth of it being pretty clear.

Are there any other things you thing have not yet happened?

 

[dad]

Dad,

Does the Lord descend from heaven with believers (who were in heaven) or does he descend from heaven and the dead rise from their graves in the earth?

Acts 3:21 says Christ stays in heaven till the restoration of all things. When are all things restored? Before the wrath or after it?

I would think that restoring is a process that starts when Jesus returns. When the heavens and earth are made new, well, I figure it is done.

To the other part of your question, He comes from heaven with us. I see no reason why we would be left in heaven when He returns with His saints, do you?

 

[dad]

Okay. These things foretold also included great tribulation...which I only bring up as a point of reference. Now, the great tribulation was to be "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." Which I would challenge you to name a greater tribulation that was placed upon Jesus for the sins of the world, past, present, and future-

In the world, He said we would have tribulation. He was leaving this world and we saw Him do that. The time which Jesus said THEN shall be great tribulation unlike anything ever seen is clear. That time is when a specific event takes place and the tribulation (Jesus confirmed was what Daniel was talking about) has a specific length of time that it happens within.

-but remember, as a timeframe, the parameters are "until this time" to "ever shall be"...meaning possibly, "soon", "quickly", during "this generation"...but not at "the end."

Until the time it starts, and that time referred to was when the abomination was placed. That time could never have happened in history, and when that time starts, the clock starts ticking. It only will and can last a few years.

So the idea that it is some other major future event that tops that of the price paid for the salvation of the whole world...is really not in accordance with Jesus' indications of the timing

Yes He timed it using the clock of Daniel.

, nor does it give Him credit for having endured the greatest of all tribulations which "ever shall be.

That future time is a separate event from the ministry of Christ on earth.

As for "fearful sights and great signs from heaven", how about people "coming up out of their graves", or "darkness from the sixth hour to the ninth hour over all the land", or a great "rock-splitting earthquake", or "the veil being torn from top to bottom"--or Jesus rising from the dead, and His ascension into heaven?

No. That was not in the Tribulation period, was not worldwide, and at the end of the Tribulation the risen Christ from heaven comes back to earth. You are not even in the ballpark.

Are there any other things you thing have not yet happened?

We are not close enough to have a rational discussion on these matters since you think the Trib was history and etc

 

[Truth7t7]

Now, the great tribulation was to be "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." Which I would challenge you to name a greater tribulation that was placed upon Jesus for the sins of the world, past, present, and future--but remember, as a timeframe, the parameters are "until this time" to "ever shall be"...meaning possibly, "soon", "quickly", during "this generation"...but not at "the end." So the idea that it is some other major future event that tops that of the price paid for the salvation of the whole world...is really not in accordance with Jesus' indications of the timing, nor does it give Him credit for having endured the greatest of all tribulations which "ever shall be." Okay, so that is one of the signs, and its timeframe--which is not what you will hear from anyone but Jesus...well, and a few hints for the apostles, and what I am now telling you.

As for "fearful sights and great signs from heaven", how about people "coming up out of their graves", or "darkness from the sixth hour to the ninth hour over all the land", or a great "rock-splitting earthquake", or "the veil being torn from top to bottom"--or Jesus rising from the dead, and His ascension into heaven?

So...we can choose to believe what men say and their teachings...or we can believe Jesus, and give Him all the credit.

I see the truth of it being pretty clear.

Are there any other things you thing have not yet happened?

I Disagree with your suggestion that the death, burial, resurrection, of Jesus fulfilled the "Great Tribilation" seen in Matthew 24:21 below in symbolic allegory.

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination causes the "Great Tribulation" it is giving the sign and the instruction to the Church on earth to flee Jerusalem/Judea, it is speaking to literal to flesh of men, and the days being shortened

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Truth7t7]

but remember, as a timeframe, the parameters are "until this time" to "ever shall be"...meaning possibly, "soon", "quickly", during "this generation"...but not at "the end." So the idea that it is some other major future event that tops that of the price paid for the salvation of the whole world...is really not in accordance with Jesus' indications of the timing, nor does it give Him credit for having endured the greatest of all tribulations which "ever shall be." Okay, so that is one of the signs, and its timeframe--which is not what you will hear from anyone but Jesus...well, and a few hints for the apostles, and what I am now telling you.

As for "fearful sights and great signs from heaven", how about people "coming up out of their graves", or "darkness from the sixth hour to the ninth hour over all the land", or a great "rock-splitting earthquake", or "the veil being torn from top to bottom"--or Jesus rising from the dead, and His ascension into heaven?

So...we can choose to believe what men say and their teachings...or we can believe Jesus, and give Him all the credit.

I see the truth of it being pretty clear.

Are there any other things you thing have not yet happened?

The complete chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the signs that will precede the Lords return in the clouds of heaven as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

"This Generation" is referring to a ",Future" generation, that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and the Lords return "Future" unfulfilled

1.) What is near, even at the doors, "The Lords Return"

2.) What is the the day and hour no man knows, "The Lords Return"

Matthew 24:33-
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[Truth7t7]

The time which Jesus said THEN shall be great tribulation unlike anything ever seen is clear. That time is when a specific event takes place and the tribulation (Jesus confirmed was what Daniel was talking about) has a specific length of time that it happens within.

Until the time it starts, and that time referred to was when the abomination was placed. That time could never have happened in history, and when that time starts, the clock starts ticking. It only will and can last a few years.

Yes He timed it using the clock of Daniel.


That future time is a separate event from the ministry of Christ on earth.


No. That was not in the Tribulation period, was not worldwide, and at the end of the Tribulation the risen Christ from heaven comes back to earth. You are not even in the ballpark.

We are not close enough to have a rational discussion on these matters since you think the Trib was history and etc

We Agree!

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

 

[dad]

We Agree!

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

Seems pretty basic. Not sure why so many people on religious forums can't even get to first base on bible prophesy basics.

 

[ewq1938]

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

The beast is killed before being given to flame in Daniel but in Revelation 19 the beast is alive when cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Cassandra]

The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

Can you explain please?

 

[amigo de christo]

Can you explain please?

actually if we read second thess we see why GOD sends the strong delusion .
So that all who rejected the gospel , the love of the truth will believe a lie and be damned . its quite simple
when we read the glorious good book called the bible . Paul says very clearly WHY its sent and who its sent too .