When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[CadyandZoe]

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This verse says when we start or begin to see these things, that is when we look up for our redemption. That does seem to mean the Rapture, because if the 'things' just started there is a lot of things yet to happen! Yet our redemption is at the doors here.
Today we do see these things start to happen. The nations that will attack Israel are in line, the worldwide credit system of the mark is beginning to be set up. Earthquakes, pestilences, the waves of people all over the world roaring, fear etc. But even if there are some who deny we are starting to see these things, the fact remains that it is when we begin to see them that OUR redemption draws very near.

I believe in this context, the phrase "Your redemption" refers to the deliverance of the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. The "sign of the son of man" IS the coming of Jesus in the clouds.

 

[Timtofly]

The kingdom of God is wherever Jesus Christ is, and flesh and blood cannot exist in that kingdom. When Christ returns for the Millennium age here on earth, flesh and blood bodies will not exist.

Adam's flesh and blood.

Of course there will be a permanent incorruptible physical body. Do you think Adam and Eve were only spirit without flesh and blood before Eve took that first bite? What spirit bites into a spirit fruit? They had physical bodies and ate from a literal physical tree with literal physical fruit.

 

[dad]

Those who fall into the trap of the rapture theory doctrine can repent and be saved in the Millennium age, when their sins of following the Antichrist are committed in ignorance..

So those who do not agree with your opinion not only are not taken up in the air to be with Jesus, but atone for their 'sins' for 1000 years. Got it.

 

[dad]

The reason there is a rapture is because that is when the Second Coming happens.

So whatever reasons God has can all be shoved into the little box of your opinion of His reasons. Move over God!

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal even before the 7th Seal is opened.

How come the second coming is during the seventh then? Rev 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The judgment of the sheep is when Christ is on His throne in His Temple. He has the book of life with Him on earth. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life and given eternal damnation. That is their judgment. The sheep remain in the Lamb's book of life, they are given eternal life. That judgment is going on during the Trumpets.

I assume you mean after the 1000 years.

Then we have the harvest of angels in Matthew 13. That happens after the Trumpets during the Thunders. The tares are living humans sent to the Lake of fire. The wheat is placed into the barn. That is a judgment from that same throne as the sheep and goats. The literal application of these judgments during the GT, gives us the outcome of those who rule and reign on earth for the next 1000 years. These redeemed saints after the Second Coming are not the church in Paradise. They are the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom on earth.

None of the church is left behind at the rapture of the Second Coming. Those still redeemed will live on the earth for the next 1000 years. The church does not come back to earth until the New Jerusalem comes down after the NHNE.

Maybe learn to chew before trying to swallow big bites.

The Second Coming brings Christ the Prince to earth. But the Lamb and the one on the throne have to end Adam's 6000 years of sin and death by sin. The tribulation is the period of time where all this mess is cleaned up by fire.

See, when you can't chew what you are trying to digest, it turns out like that. You chewed up the Tribulation, millennium and other things together.

 

[dad]

I believe in this context, the phrase "Your redemption" refers to the deliverance of the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. The "sign of the son of man" IS the coming of Jesus in the clouds.

Luke 21:25
"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
Luke 21:26
men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luke 21:27
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28
But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

So the Tribulation is described, then in verse 27 we have the second coming of Jesus. I would say that because of 2 things, one is that it is after the Tribulation, and also that this is when they will see Jesus. That seems to denote the return of Christ when every eye will see Him. But verse 28 goes back again. It is not in a progression of events that we just saw. Why? Because it goes back to the time when people just started to see some of these things. It is way back then that His people could know that THEIR redemption was at hand.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Luke 21:25
"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
Luke 21:26
men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luke 21:27
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28
But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

So the Tribulation is described, then in verse 27 we have the second coming of Jesus. I would say that because of 2 things, one is that it is after the Tribulation, and also that this is when they will see Jesus. That seems to denote the return of Christ when every eye will see Him. But verse 28 goes back again. It is not in a progression of events that we just saw. Why? Because it goes back to the time when people just started to see some of these things. It is way back then that His people could know that THEIR redemption was at hand.

Two questions:
1. Do the Jesus-followers need to be redeemed? I would think they are redeemed already.
2. To whom is Jesus speaking, twenty first century Christians or first century Jews?

 

[dad]

Two questions:
1. Do the Jesus-followers need to be redeemed? I would think they are redeemed already.

Not in body.

2. To whom is Jesus speaking, twenty first century Christians or first century Jews?

Anyone alive when they start to see the signs

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Isaiah 62:11
The Lord has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: "Say to Daughter Zion, ‘See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.'"

That is key, He comes with His reward (which occurs at the 7th trumpet) and every eye sees Him. The harvest is at that moment, He takes some and leaves the rest.
>>The reward is mentioned in Rev. 10:7 which is a reference to the last trumpet (#7)
Rev. 11:15 is the Last Trumpet
The one event that is the key to understanding when the Church is taken up is at the Last Trumpet. (1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52)
The Pre-Tribbers MUST therefore reject the 7th Trumpet as being the last trumpet. If the 7th is the last, then their whole scenario is flawed. It means we must endure through the Seals and six trumpets, yet we will avoid the wrath of God which comes in the Seven Bowls. The problem with Post-Tribbers is, they insist that the Church much endure the entire GT or die in the midst. God does not appoint us to wrath though but we will suffer some of the Great Tribulation ( "those days" prior to the rapture). If there was a trumpet after the 7th, then it would be the 8th. If before the 7th, it wouldn’t be the last.
Many things that support this trumpet as the last is that many things that you would expect happen occur at this time:
1. The mystery of God is revealed (Rev. 10:7 refers to the 7th trumpet) This mystery is spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51-53, which speaks of the last trumpet.
2. The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's. Evidently He just appeared to cause this to happen. (Rev. 11:15)
3. The dead are resurrected and judged also. (Rev. 11:18)
4. We receive rewards according to our deeds. (Rev. 11:18)
5. The Temple of God is open in heaven. (Rev. 11:19) 6. Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath are released!

Matt. 24:31 is the same Trumpet referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52 & Rev. 11:15.
As for Rev. 10:7, as previously mentioned is a reference to the 7th Trumpet: Do you know what the "mystery" is that will be revealed at this time? The mystery is what our resurrected bodies will be like. We know we will be like Christ, but only eye witnesses gave seen His resurrected body and even they did not know what His body was fully capable of. Appearing, disappearing, entering in and out of the spiritual realm into the physical, ascending ... might as well say flying like angels. At that moment of our resurrection _ wow _the answer to the question _ the experience everyone has been waiting _ that is the mystery.

 

[ewq1938]

The reason there is a rapture is because that is when the Second Coming happens. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal even before the 7th Seal is opened.

Explain why Christ does not leave heaven to perform the second coming when he opens that 6th seal.

 

[dad]

That is key, He comes with His reward (which occurs at the 7th trumpet) and every eye sees Him. The harvest is at that moment, He takes some and leaves the rest.
>>The reward is mentioned in Rev. 10:7 which is a reference to the last trumpet (#7)
Rev. 11:15 is the Last Trumpet
The one event that is the key to understanding when the Church is taken up is at the Last Trumpet. (1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52)
The Pre-Tribbers MUST therefore reject the 7th Trumpet as being the last trumpet. If the 7th is the last, then their whole scenario is flawed. It means we must endure through the Seals and six trumpets, yet we will avoid the wrath of God which comes in the Seven Bowls. The problem with Post-Tribbers is, they insist that the Church much endure the entire GT or die in the midst. God does not appoint us to wrath though but we will suffer some of the Great Tribulation ( "those days" prior to the rapture). If there was a trumpet after the 7th, then it would be the 8th. If before the 7th, it wouldn’t be the last.
Many things that support this trumpet as the last is that many things that you would expect happen occur at this time:
1. The mystery of God is revealed (Rev. 10:7 refers to the 7th trumpet) This mystery is spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51-53, which speaks of the last trumpet.
2. The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's. Evidently He just appeared to cause this to happen. (Rev. 11:15)
3. The dead are resurrected and judged also. (Rev. 11:18)
4. We receive rewards according to our deeds. (Rev. 11:18)
5. The Temple of God is open in heaven. (Rev. 11:19) 6. Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath are released!

Matt. 24:31 is the same Trumpet referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52 & Rev. 11:15.
As for Rev. 10:7, as previously mentioned is a reference to the 7th Trumpet: Do you know what the "mystery" is that will be revealed at this time? The mystery is what our resurrected bodies will be like. We know we will be like Christ, but only eye witnesses gave seen His resurrected body and even they did not know what His body was fully capable of. Appearing, disappearing, entering in and out of the spiritual realm into the physical, ascending ... might as well say flying like angels. At that moment of our resurrection _ wow _the answer to the question _ the experience everyone has been waiting _ that is the mystery.

You are hinging your case on the trumpets being the same. You need more.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You are hinging your case on the trumpets being the same. You need more.

Did you miss the mystery that is revealed which is tied to the 7th trumpet? You are the one who mentioned when Jesus arrives, He will come with rewards (Rev. 11:18). What else happens? Heaven opens up. THE DEAD ARE RESURRECTED (REV. 11:18) .There it is right there, the resurrection. The dead will rise first then we who are alive will be caught up! HELLO DADDIO. Even Einstein would agree with that.

 

[ewq1938]

Even Einstein would agree with that.

He wouldn't because he was not a Christian and did not believe in any NT prophecies.

 

[n2thelight]

So those who do not agree with your opinion not only are not taken up in the air to be with Jesus, but atone for their 'sins' for 1000 years. Got it.

Christ will be here on this earth ,those not in Christ at His return are changed just like those in Christ, to their spiritual bodies.
The difference is the state of the soul after the change .If you are in Christ your soul is immortal at that time ,if not you can die the 2nd death , which is the death of the soul .

The millennium is for those who were deceived to learn the true Word of God ,at the end of that period satan will be release to do the same thing he did before Christ returned

The below is before Christ returns

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

When Satan appears, he will come showing all his supernatural wonders. As it is written in Revelation 13:113, 14; "And he [Satan, the Antichrist] doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire [lightning bolts] come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." [13] "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast should be killed." [14]

Satan is an supernatural person, as we saw from Ezekiel 28, and you can stand against him if you are prepared from the word of God. He tells us not to fret and worry, and not to even premeditate our words, when called up to give account of ourselves, for the Holy Spirit will place the words within our mouths, and give is the words to say at the right time.

This is what happens after the millennium

Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

When everyone has been taught who are in their mortal (liable to die) soul bodies, then Satan will be loosed. Those teachings will have been given under perfect conditions, and all will have bodies with no ailments, perfect thought, and no temptations by Satan. In fact, all will know he was the deceiver of this earth age. Their understanding will be perfect.

Then Satan is released. Now notice what he does

Revelation 20:8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

The tribulation of satan is all about deception which is satan coming as Christ

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"
Mark 13:5 "And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any man deceive you:"

If you think you gonna fly out of here before these events take place believing in this rapture ,yes you will be deceived and the funny thing is God is the one that's gonna make you believe that lie

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

 

[dad]

Did you miss the mystery that is revealed which is tied to the 7th trumpet? You are the one who mentioned when Jesus arrives, He will come with rewards (Rev. 11:18). What else happens? Heaven opens up. THE DEAD ARE RESURRECTED (REV. 11:18) .There it is right there, the resurrection. The dead will rise first then we who are alive will be caught up! HELLO DADDIO. Even Einstein would agree with that.

A lot happens when He comes including the 1000 years at the end of which the dead are judged. Don't try to stuff it all into lunch time

 

[dad]

Christ will be here on this earth ,those not in Christ at His return are changed just like those in Christ, to their spiritual bodies.
The difference is the state of the soul after the change .If you are in Christ your soul is immortal at that time ,if not you can die the 2nd death , which is the death of the soul .

Why even talk about second death when it comes to believers? When you talk about His return you conflate the Rapture with the second coming.

The millennium is for those who were deceived to learn the true Word of God ,at the end of that period satan will be release to do the same thing he did before Christ returned

The bible does not say what that the 1000 yrs are for exactly. The world certainly will be full of the word of God though.

The below is before Christ returns

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

That is also after the Rapture.

This is what happens after the millennium

Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

When everyone has been taught who are in their mortal (liable to die) soul bodies, then Satan will be loosed. Those teachings will have been given under perfect conditions, and all will have bodies with no ailments, perfect thought, and no temptations by Satan. In fact, all will know he was the deceiver of this earth age. Their understanding will be perfect.

Then Satan is released. Now notice what he does

Revelation 20:8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Guess their understanding was not as perfect as you thought.

The tribulation of satan is all about deception which is satan coming as Christ

Well he deceives the whole world so he is doing more than just claiming to be Christ.

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"
Mark 13:5 "And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any man deceive you:"

If you think you gonna fly out of here before these events take place believing in this rapture ,yes you will be deceived and the funny thing is God is the one that's gonna make you believe that lie

Calling truth lies does not make truth anything different than what it is. You call the return of Jesus with saints the rapture then accuse others of believing lies.

If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth

Don't offer your obviously mistaken and confused opinion as truth and Scriptural. You even conflate truth and lies.

. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son.

Not sure who you think you are talking to and what you are rambling about. Apparently you like to try and look as if you know God and Scripture. Sorry, there are adults present here.

If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word,

The bible says we will meet Him in the air and so ever be with Him. It also talks of what we do then, and how later we return to earth with Him. To pretend that is 'refusing His word' is unsound.

He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

There you go again pretending your grossly confused and unsound opinion is somehow related to the truth and Scripture. Seriously??

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

He wouldn't because he was not a Christian and did not believe in any NT prophecies.

Lol ...joking! Dad's avatar is Einstein if you had'nt noticed.

 

[n2thelight]

Adam's flesh and blood.

Of course there will be a permanent incorruptible physical body. Do you think Adam and Eve were only spirit without flesh and blood before Eve took that first bite? What spirit bites into a spirit fruit? They had physical bodies and ate from a literal physical tree with literal physical fruit.

Adam was made from the dust of the ground ,problem is you don't know why we were made flesh, had satan not rebelled (before Adam)we would not had been.
So no Adam was not in his spiritual body, however at the start of the millennium we all shall be

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

A lot happens when He comes including the 1000 years at the end of which the dead are judged. Don't try to stuff it all into lunch time

Am I moving too fast? I thought the speed limit was C?

 

[n2thelight]

Why even talk about second death when it comes to believers? When you talk about His return you conflate the Rapture with the second coming.
The bible does not say what that the 1000 yrs are for exactly. The world certainly will be full of the word of God though.

That is also after the Rapture.

Guess their understanding was not as perfect as you thought.

Well he deceives the whole world so he is doing more than just claiming to be Christ.

Calling truth lies does not make truth anything different than what it is. You call the return of Jesus with saints the rapture then accuse others of believing lies.

Don't offer your obviously mistaken and confused opinion as truth and Scriptural. You even conflate truth and lies.

Not sure who you think you are talking to and what you are rambling about. Apparently you like to try and look as if you know God and Scripture. Sorry, there are adults present here.


The bible says we will meet Him in the air and so ever be with Him. It also talks of what we do then, and how later we return to earth with Him. To pretend that is 'refusing His word' is unsound.

There you go again pretending your grossly confused and unsound opinion is somehow related to the truth and Scripture. Seriously??

Stay where you at ,one thing is certain, we will find out

 

[n2thelight]

That is also after the Rapture.

Where in Matthew 24 is this rapture .Or is He not speaking of the Church in that chapter?