The Pre-Trib Rapture

[David H.]

To begin, have you not found yet that God Has TWO Different programs?:

one for HIS earthly people, Israel, And,
The Other For HIS Heavenly Body Of CHRIST? ie:
-----------------
God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (past/future)

(1) Concerns a kingdom: a political organization
(Daniel_2:44; Matthew_6:10 KJB!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

BTW, I find these discussions go best when you stick to one or two points at a time as opposed to long monologues with multiple points as invariably some points are missed in responding to each point. let's tackle the Gospel of the Kingdom after the same time problem.

 

[Taken]

Yet scripture states that God will be here on earth in other words Heaven will be here on earth ,so again they can't be a place for each

Currently Heaven and Earth is Divided.
Currently People are Divided.

In the future the Division between Heaven and Earth Shall be Opened.
In the future People WITHOUT God will be Separated FROM People WITH God.

People WITH God will occupy the Earth, with Heaven and Earth having no division. Gods Kingdom IN Heaven will ALSO be Gods Kingdom ON (the entire Earth.)

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Israel was divorced by God in Jeremiah 3:8, which is what ended the old covenant.

People don't really understand what the "Old Covenant" was it seems !! What Covenant did Abraham make with God? Was it the Law? Of course not, that's just erroneous isn't it, Abraham created the PROMISE COVENANT with God not the Law Covenant. As Galatians 3 tells us, the Law was added 430 years later. Anyone thinking that THE LAW was ever the Covenant is just in error.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul(meaning the Law which came LATER never did away with THE PROMISE), that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

So, do you still think the Law was ever a true Covenant between God and Israel? No, it was added in because of sin. No one can be justified by the law.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So, was the PROMISED COMING a "New Covenant", no of course not, it was the original covenant of the PROMISED COMING of the Messianic Lamb of God.

So, you do not seem to understand Jesus' promised coming was the REAL Old Covenant, and his coming ended THE LAW which was added in because of sins. God divorced Israel because of unbelief and thus as Paul says in Romans 11 when they BELIVE AGAIN God will graft them back in. Lets see if you can read Zechariah 13:8-9 where God says 1/3 of Israel repents just before the DOTL that is shown to come in Zechariah 14:1-2. Paul stated God's callings are without repentance. So, Israel was called to be a part of the the coming Kingdom Age and that will happen after they repent and Jesus rules from Jerusalem for 1000 years.

The,144,000 are not all Israel.

Yes they are, you simply do not understand the scriptures that shows us this brother. God is shouting at you with 12 (which means fulness) Jewish names x 12,000 and you can't grasp that its ALL Israel who repent. Its not even debatable.

Paul was clear that most of Israel has not gotten righteousness, and are unsaved:

Rom 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Don't run away from the full context, Romans chapters 9-11 are all one passage. Paul says ALL Israel will be saved, not every Jew, but Israel as the Kingdom Age Nation will be preserved. All you have to do is read, Zechariah 8:9 says 1/3 of the Jews REPENT. And Malachi 4:5 says Elijah returns before the Day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God.

The rest is not relevant, we know God turned His back on Israel until 1948, that's what the Ezekiel chapter 37 prophetic Dead Men's Bones are all about, BUT.......You seem to not be able to understand prophecy in full, God says he will make those Dead Men's Bones LIVE AGAIN, and that he will bring the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel back into the land in the end times and put LIFE back into them in a spiritual sense also. He BREATHES on Israel and they are quickened by His Spirit.

 

[marks]

Ok…good. A new covenant. And what WAS this new covenant? It was a promise to remove hearts of stone and replace them with hearts of flesh…of writing his law (what was good) upon his people’s hearts.

The part I really want to highlight in this passage is this:

35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

These promises will be kept.

This is National Israel. Not the church.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Progressive revelation means that things are being revealed in the NT about things done…things promised…in the OT. God promised Abraham that through him, and through God’s promises to him, all nations would be blessed. We are living proof of those promises. And we know it because both Jews and Gentiles are part of one body.

Well, there are many who speak this way.

Let me ask you . . . when Peter preached at Pentecost that if they repented that God would send back Jesus for the restoration, if they had, would God have? Was that a real offer? Or more like window dressing, since God already knew they would reject Jesus?

Much love!

 

[Taken]

@in2thelight ~

* God began the Division of People.
* Jesus continued the Division of People.

* God also began the Division of Saved souls of People...(those saved souls departed out of dead body’s kept with God in Heaven)
* Jesus continued the Division of Saved souls AND Reborn spirit of People...(those Saved souls AND Reborn spirits departed out of dead body’s kept with God in Heaven)

* From God, to Jesus, to Apostles, to Jews, to Gentiles further knowledge was revealed ... Gods Great Wrath shall again come upon the Earth...
* Relieved and not Appointed to Wrath Applies to:
~ Any men who has Laid down his life Crucified with Christ, having a Saved soul, Born Again spirit....shall be lifted up above the face of the Earth. (Same as in Saved Noah’s day, he lifted up above the face of the Earth during Gods Great First Wrath upon the Earth.)
~ Any men during the Wrath of Lamb, (seals) the devils wrath (trumps) ...WHOSE soul becomes Save, WHOSE spirit become Born Again, will have their bodily Life killed....and be raise up during the first resurrection, unto eternal life.
~ Any men during the Wrath of God (vials)....shall suffer His Wrath, shall be bodily killed, soul not saved, spirit not reborn and shall be raised up in damnation during the second resurrection, judged and destroyed.

 

[marks]

Yet scripture states that God will be here on earth in other words Heaven will be here on earth ,so again they can't be a place for each

There will still be heaven, and there will still be earth.

There will be those who do not reproduce, who are in the resurrection like the angels, and those who do, in whom the word of God, and the Spirit in them will be in their children, and their children's children, and so on.

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

I can’t agree with you, or we’d both be wrong.

 

[Truth7t7]

There will still be heaven, and there will still be earth.

There will be those who do not reproduce, who are in the resurrection like the angels, and those who do, in whom the word of God, and the Spirit in them will be in their children, and their children's children, and so on.

Much love!

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement,dissolving this earth by fire (The End) 2 Peter 3:10-13, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, luke 17:29-30, Zechariah 14:12, Nahum 1:5, Malachi 3:2

This earth will pass away and the new creation in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, will be revealed at the return of Jesus Christ Revelation 21:1-5

There won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a teaching found no place in scripture

 

[Naomi25]

This is completely incorrect. It is the Church which has both Jews and Gentiles in one Body with the Gentiles grafted in. But when the "fullness of the Gentiles" is fulfilled (the full number of Gentiles within the Church), then the Church is complete and raptured, and God resumes His dealings directly with Israel through Christ. This is after the Second Coming. And it is all spelled out in Romans 11. Therefore redeemed (saved) and restored Israel is DISTINCT from the Church and will remain on earth within "Greater Israel" in the future.

I beg to differ in regards to this being “spelled out” in Romans 11. There is no “after the Rapture” set of circumstances found at all. Let’s see:

Romans 11
Gentiles Grafted In
[11] So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. [12] Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

This infers to a future time (perhaps) where Israels “full inclusion” will occur. But there is nothing said or even implied that it will be ‘after the Rapture’.


[13] Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry [14] in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. [15] For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? [16] If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Paul speaks to Gentile believers here, advising them that ‘Israel’s rejection was the means of their own reconciliation. He again refers to the fact that there will be an “acceptance” from Israel…a turning back to God. But…we still don’t see any sort of reference to a Rapture in this part.


[17] But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, [18] do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. [19] Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [20] That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. [21] For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. [22] Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. [23] And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. [24] For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Paul describes the unity of the Body here, letting us visualise the adoption of Gentile believers onto the ‘tree’ of faithful Jews. He warns that Gentile believers should not take for granted their ‘grafted’ status, and reveals that the unbelieving Jews have the chance to also be grafted back onto their ‘natural’ tree. But…we still don’t see any sort of a reference to a Rapture, or to this “re-grafting” being something that will be done after ‘the church’ is gone. None.


The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation
[25] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [26] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
[27] “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
[28] As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [30] For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, [31] so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. [32] For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Paul reveals that Israel is ‘beloved’, and that after their ‘partial hardening’ all Israel will be saved. Paul tells us that this will happen after ‘the fullness of the Gentiles’ has come in. But again…there is NO mention of a Rapture or a disappearing Church. Just as the Jews remained on earth as masses of Gentiles were grafted onto the tree, there is nothing to say the same won’t happen when Gentiles reject the truth and Jews embrace it.


So…basically, there is nothing in this passage that insists that the Church must be gone, and via the rapture at that. All it tells us is that God has the ability to graft the Jews back onto their natural tree. And…if we follow the symbology, we must allow it to be the same tree the Church is a part of. With nothing to outright tell us the church will be removed, it is mere speculation.

 

[Enoch111]

I beg to differ in regards to this being “spelled out” in Romans 11.

Looks like you love to cherry pick what you will believe and what you will disregard. So do you even know what is being spelled out in Romans 11:25-36? It is the future redemption of believing Israel (the twelve tribes, not every Jew). If you turn to Ezekiel and many of the other prophets it is all spelled out in detail.

But again…there is NO mention of a Rapture or a disappearing Church.

Why would there be any need to mention that when it is clearly spelled out in other passages? Did you really expect the Bible to be a textbook on theology and eschatology? The fact remains that God has a specific number of Gentiles in mind in order to complete the Church. And He calls it "the fulness of the Gentiles".

 

[Naomi25]

I am saying there are still two kingdoms. Only one tree. Christ is not a kingdom, but a tree in this symbolism.

The two kingdoms started when God separated Adam from the rest of the sons of God, and put him alone in a Garden/Paradise.

Paradise was the kingdom/city of separation from the country wide kingdom of the sons of God.

Ah…yeah. You’re gonna need to show me some verses to back that idea up please.

.
Later Israel was taken out of Egypt in the same vein.

The current church is still being taken out of the world. All this gathering on earth was to have a kingdom in Paradise to complete what God started with Adam in the Garden.

The point that God made a promise to David as part of Israel was an earthly kingdom, not the same kingdom as all were headed for in Paradise where the Garden was now located. So Adam's offspring were still going to fill up Paradise (the church) while Israel was to fill the earth.

Paul's point about the tree was a different angle than the kingdoms espoused in the Gospels. Paul never said Christ was a kingdom, but an Olive Tree. Still talking about the church, not the church separated into two kingdoms, where now Israel was cut off, but the Gentiles were now rulers of a kingdom. Even Jesus said to pray that the kingdom would come to earth, not physically but unseen spiritually to the point those on earth were all doing God's will like those in Paradise.

The Olive Tree symbolized the church as being the spiritual example. In the OT, Israel was the public example of the church. In the NT, the fulness of the Gentiles, was the example of the church. But Paradise was still the example of the kingdom of the church, and Israel was the only example of a kingdom on earth. Israel as the kingdom on earth was put on hold just as much as Israel was cut off being part of Christ.

The Second Coming will restore Israel as part of the church, but still on earth as an earthly kingdom. But the past dead already in Paradise are not returning to earth. Nor will the earthly Israel ever move into the New Jerusalem. One is still the Paradise kingdom, the other still the kingdom that covers the earth.

The 1000 year reign of Christ is to establish that earthly kingdom (Israel), while the heavenly city, Paradise was already complete at the Second Coming.

I’m sorry…but I didn’t follow that. At all.

 

[Naomi25]

Precious friend, maybe These will be "the satisfactory reason," Rightly
Divided (2 Timothy 2:15)?:

here: #554 and here: #565

GRACE And Peace...

Hi! I appreciate the thought, but I’m not having much luck tracking with your posts. Sometimes point-format is good, but I’m afraid that for the purpose of our conversation, I’m not really getting a sense of your argument. I’m aware of all those verses, but without some hard exegetical work breaking them down, it’s very hard to see your point of view on them. Sorry!

 

[Naomi25]

Maybe I misspoke . . . I had actually been thinking God makes it clear, in other passages than Paul, but just the same, I'll think to see if I'm aware of where Paul makes those statements.

Much love!

Would you be able to post the verses where God makes it clear? Thanks…

 

[Naomi25]

I think there is a lot in how different people think differently when speaking of "a separate plan". So then, God's plan for me was to discover the truth through the prophecies, and it was God's plan for my sister to discover the truth through a caring pastor. We don't end up with separate salvations, but God's methods of getting us there were different.

In the OT, God chose Israel out from the rest, and His plan was different for Israel then for the rest. But it's still Creator God rescuing His creation.

I don’t disagree. I don’t think anyone would. It’s clear scripture teaches that God singled out Israel for a specific purpose and ‘plan’. Part of that purpose was to bring both Christ into the world…and the believing Gentiles to faith. And I also agree that only in Christ can a person be redeemed…regardless of the path that leads one to him.

Where I DO differ is that I just don’t see anywhere in the NT that supports the idea that National (currently unbelieving) Israel will reach a point where the ‘plan’ for them will be changed. And by that I mean…we agree that NOW any Jew who comes to faith is added to the Church body. To the tree described in Romans 11. Where are we told that a point will come when that ‘plan’ for salvation is done, and another one will take it’s place. Yes…every ‘plan’ still leads to Christ…on that we agree. But I simply cannot see any scripture supporting the idea of the church being removed so that the ‘plan’ can fundamentally change. It’s not found in Romans 11. It doesn’t seem to be found in any passage that speaks of Christ’s return.

It may be of interest to you to look at exactly how the Scripture speaks of the "body of Christ". And the ekklesia. These things are not everywhere in the Bible. Just like legal observance/sacrifice is not everywhere in the Bible. And righteousness based on gentile treatment of Jews isn't throughout. Neither is image/beast worship or MOB on pain of death. These are all specific to certain time periods. For the redeemed, all conclude with new life given by God, His gift received in faith.

‘Ekklesia’ means ‘church’….so I would be looking at the same thing, would I not?

Ephesians 1:22-23
And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 4:12
..to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

Ephesians 5:29-30
For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.


It’s clear the ‘church’ is merely the name for members of Christ’s body. We also know that within Christ’s body, the wall of division comes down between Jew and Greek.

Ephesians 2:14-16
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

After so much work done by Paul in the NT to stress that in Christ we all become one body, indeed, heirs of the very promises given to Abraham….where would we read that we ought to have an expectation that might change? That, to use Eph 2:16 phrasing, the ‘one new man’ would again become two?

Abraham's faith was that God would give more descendants than all the stars he could see. All of us are to simply believe God when He speaks to us. But He says different things sometimes.

The OT faithful are not included Biblically in the assembly, the ekklesia. And there are certain ones who are declared to be "in Christ". There are certain ones to whom it is promised to be given land grants. The ekklesia is not given those land grants. Same God, Same Salvation, Same Savior, saved by grace through faith, all of us who are saved. But some God brings this way, some God brings that way.

You are correct, I think, they are grafted back into the tree, to be nourished by the root that is Christ. Time, and Method are the differences.

Much love!

Ah. Mmm. I’m not sure I can get on board with these ideas…theologically. God speaks to us, through his word, and his word never changes.

God made many promises to Abraham. That he would have a son…that he would have descendants as numerous as the stars. That he would be a blessing to all nations. Promises of land. And that because Abraham ‘believed’, it was counted to him as righteousness. Indeed…we are told that far from salvation in the OT being via law-keeping, it comes through faith, even then.

Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

So…while these OT ‘saints’ may not be part of the Church, as it is now named, we know that they, like us, are saved through faith. We have the benefit of knowing who exactly we place our faith in for salvational purposes. In the OT, the faith was in God’s promise to bring forth the ‘crushing one’. In all his promises. Which is significant, as God made many promises.

And then, in the nature of progressive revelation, we reach the NT, the time when God poured his Spirit into people, and the apostles are given words to write down. And we are shown how we need to regard all those promises made to Israel.

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Galatians 3:14
…so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Romans 15:8
For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs,

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.


It is Paul’s tree. In Christ we all become one. One people who is recipient of God’s promises to Abraham. So…no matter if it is Abraham, David or Daniel. If it is Peter, James or John…or if it is you and I now. The promises are fulfilled in Christ…and we are one in Christ….heirs of promise.
So the promises are ours, just as much as they were Abrahams. In fact, the reality of us, as Gentiles, being in Christ now is proof that the promises to Abraham have been fulfilled in Christ Jesus.
And I honestly cannot see anywhere in the NT that either contradicts Paul’s careful teaching on these truths…or to expound upon them in order to make something more come after them.

 

[ewq1938]

Where I DO differ is that I just don’t see anywhere in the NT that supports the idea that National (currently unbelieving) Israel will reach a point where the ‘plan’ for them will be changed. And by that I mean…we agree that NOW any Jew who comes to faith is added to the Church body. To the tree described in Romans 11. Where are we told that a point will come when that ‘plan’ for salvation is done, and another one will take it’s place. Yes…every ‘plan’ still leads to Christ…on that we agree. But I simply cannot see any scripture supporting the idea of the church being removed so that the ‘plan’ can fundamentally change. It’s not found in Romans 11. It doesn’t seem to be found in any passage that speaks of Christ’s return.

It's not biblical. There is not one single verse that says anything about Jesus rejecting Jews suddenly converting and accepting Christ as the Messiah. Not one. It would be awesome if one existed, and even for all non-Christians to suddenly convert but such a concept is not found in the bible.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, we all end up alive with God in grace and mercy, redeemed eternally. But some came to Him through the Law Covenant. Some come through the preaching of Christ, and trusting Him.

Again…some differences of opinion on some of the finer points of doctrine.
I’d say that it’s important to make the distinction between law and faith even in the OT. The law was to highlight sin, to show the NEED for God..but it did not save. It was still faith, just as it is now, that saved a person.

Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

.
We're told the time will come when those who come will come through martyrdom, and enduring tribulation,

Where is the text that tells us that faith through martyrdom and tribulation is only for a future time?

John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

John 15:18-19
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Acts 14:22
…strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:35-37
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Romans 12:12
Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

Hatred from the world…martyrdom…and tribulation is to be expected as normal for the Christian. And I’m not sure its at all supportable to claim that the bible teaches a specific group in the future who will suffer those things. The claims are directed towards Christian’s…Christ followers. In every time.

.
and that some who will be declared righteous will be declared so because of their works.

This claim goes directly against NT teaching that faith is THE only way to Christ. Even in the OT before Christ came faith was the requirement.

Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:22-25
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.


I know of nothing that teaches a time will come that will allow righteousness to be earned by works. Indeed, that idea directly contradicts numerous clear biblical teaching on the subject.

 

[Naomi25]

In showing the rapture contrasted to the gathering of the Jews, I find the text reads that way. To me there isn't any kind of mental gymnastics, but for me, there is an awful lot I think I'd have to ignore to see the rapture of the church in the gathering of the elect when Jesus.

I understand you see it that way. But…if we’re just reading those texts, how do you KNOW one is a gathering of the church (rapture), and the other the gathering of the Jews?
Does it say?
Does the passages about the ‘second coming’ actually say its specifically for the Jewish people?
Does the passages that speak of the ‘Rapture’ actually say that only the Church will go? Making care to point out that a group will be left to ‘try again’, so to speak.
I don’t think either passage does. From memory, they only speak of gathering or rapturing God’s people…those who belong to Christ. I’m not sure how you get distinction within those texts.

.
One Gospel says there was 1 man living in the tombs in the Gaderenes, another Gospel says there were two men living in the tombs. So we know there were two, because you can have one, and also another, but you cannot have 1 but not another, while still having 2.

Or…there indeed may have been two, and one writer only saw one there. Doesn’t mean he’s lying or being inaccurate. He’s just reporting what he, personally, saw.

.
The Gospel says that Jesus sends His angels to gather His chosen, and then that the nations are gathered, including righteous and unrighteous. Where is the church there? In the gathering of the chosen? Or gathering of the righteous and unrighteous gentiles? If in the chosen, then how do you have righteous gentiles? If in the righteous gentiles, why are the declared based on works?

I’m guessing you’re referring to these two passages?

Matthew 24:31
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Well…I’d say we harmonise what we know, from other passages, about the return of Christ. 1 Cor 15:23-55 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 tells us that at Christ’s immediate return, he raptures his believers (both dead and alive) to meet him in the air, where we receive our new resurrection bodies. We also know from Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15….as well as numerous other mentions throughout scripture…about everyone standing before the judgement throne of God.

I don’t think there’s a conflict of interest between the passages in order for that to happen. Rapture first, fronting the judgment seat next. In point of fact, with the texts only labelling Christians as Christians (elect, believers, those who belong to Christ…etc), and specifically doesn’t mention a division within the group (church/Israel) to lead us to another conclusion, I’m personally convinced that to add that bias into the text is erroneous.

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And considering the OT has specific prophecies of this very thing, showing Israel being regathered, then the Gentiles gathered to be judged, how am I not just following what the Bible says?

The OT is important…but progressive revelation means we need to look at those prophecies through the lens of the NT, and what it says about Israel, the people of God, and the promises of God.
I’m not saying you are wrong in your reading of those prophecies…but I do wonder if you’ve considered them in light of everything Paul had to say about the Gentiles being Abraham’s offspring, heirs of promise etc, along with believing Jews.

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I don't speak this way myself. But I think this is more just trying to be descriptive of their view.

Again, to me, this is more descriptive of their view, rather than giving the Biblical reasons for it.

Descriptive? Yes…I’m sure it is. But along with it being descriptive, it’s also something I’ve heard repeatedly as “reasons” why Dispensational teaching is correct. I’m not actually sure I’ve ever heard any teacher/pastor as they preached/taught “why the Rapture is pre-trib” stop the descriptive and take the time or effort to explain exegetically how they rightly divide the ‘descriptions’ from scripture.
Again…this is not a criticism of you, but just a pet peeve of mine since it REALLY would help their cause just a bit if they’d take that time. It does tend to leave one wondering if they could peel it back exegetically, or they’re just repeating ‘descriptive mantras’ that support their view.

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The armies of heaven could be angels, or angels and men, or . . . Personally I think there is good cause to think men and angels come from heaven with Jesus, but I'd want to get to specific passages.

The kinds of dispensational arguments I more hear, and consider, give particular passages and show how they relate to other passages.

Well…how’s about some name dropping, huh? So I can hear some more meaty Pre-trib arguments?

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Well, I disagree. I think just anyone can and does do this. Myself, I've found the other rapture views to be irreconcilable to the Scriptures.

We need to look at specific passages, at which time, if we will follow through the discussion, we will find which words we do not regard the same.

Much love!

Well, that ought to be proof of how differently folks can interpret stuff! Because for me it was the exact opposite! I started out as Pre-trib, but simply could not reconcile the teaching with the ‘return’ passages in scripture.

 

[Naomi25]

The part I really want to highlight in this passage is this:

35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

These promises will be kept.

This is National Israel. Not the church.

Much love!

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.


Israel has not been cast off. Israel will never be cast off. But the NT clearly shows that how we THINK about Israel has changed significantly. Blood alone does not count. Blood alone gets you snapped off the tree.
It’s faith in Christ alone that will see you grafted on, and as an ‘heir of promise’…an offspring of Abraham.
Jews will always be a part of this ‘tree’. Paul states it emphatically! But the ‘church’ has not superseded Israel…not replaced her for a time. It has joined her. Those in Christ are as “Israel” as the Jews in Christ are.
And yes…I expect Romans 11 does paint a picture of ethnic Jews being grafted back onto the ‘tree’ in large numbers….but it is still ‘the tree’…and Paul undoubtably fuses two peoples into one in that tree….and then repeatedly calls us ‘the church’.

You can make of that what you will, but it’s a fundamental mistake to divorce ‘Israel’ and ‘the church’ when everything in the NT makes them one.

 

[ewq1938]

Israel has not been cast off. Israel will never be cast off.

Faithless Israel literally has been cut off and cast off, of those who reject Christ. The term Paul used was removal of their branches. That is cutting the branch off and casting it away. It can be reattached which is a spiritual form of resurrection (dead branch alive again and re-grafted) but only if they accept Christ.