Justification By Works

[Rudometkin]

dont worry, 99% of this forum dont listen to him either. He just rambles about “calvinists are evil, blah blah, OSAS is evil, blah blah, blah.” He’s like the old man feeding the birds at the park who cusses to himself.

I'm personally not very familiar with him. So from my perspective, if he is convinced and trying to genuinely debate Scripture with people then that is fine. I would hate for him to be genuine with people and then we be mean towards him. I am just not very familiar with him.

People are just too quick in their replies. They don't think about what they are engaging with. It's a fault on their end. Just because I'm not preaching justification by works I must be preaching justification by faith?

Where is Grace and Christ in that?

 

[Christ4Me]

Since justification by works is a rock that cannot be moved, the truth of it being established by three plain witnesses:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works.

So then, we must correct the false reading of being justified by faith alone.

Are you going to address what James was talking about in James 2nd chapter?

From verse 1, James was addressing the church disrespect for the poor by giving the best seats to the rich while they get to sit on the floor.

Then James went on to another abuse that the church was doing after church service; the church was issuing a benediction to the poor in their departure to have faith in God to provide for the poor without the church meeting any of the immediate needs of the poor that were about to perish from the elements and starvation from the bounty collected at church service.

It is in the eyes of the poor that the church's faith in God's Providence does not profit the poor nor save the poor when in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God's Providence was dead.

It was not about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works, but about how the church was voicing their faith in God's Providence to the poor to get out of helping the poor. It is the church's faith in God's providence that requires faith with works by leading by example in meeting the immediate needs of the poor from the bounty collected at church service.

The fact that James refer to Abraham's faith in God's Providence proves what kind of faith he was referring to as Abraham named the place Jehovah-jireh for that reason.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

That is the only faith James was referring to that requires works.

For today, when a preacher is getting an IRA, a guaranteed salary, and house to live in for free with expenses paid, for that pastor to brow beat the congregation that they are robbing from God's House by not tithing, is a pastor that does not have faith in God raising up cheerful giver to provide for the church let alone for himself and yet the audacity to preach from the pulpit for the poor that are tithing that God will provide.

Hardly a cheerful giver in the poor especially when they are to provide for their own house in regards to the widows in their families.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

It is in the eyes of the poor, that the pastor's faith in God's Providence is dead as it will not profit the poor nor save the poor when the pastor refuse to meet the needs of the poor out of his comfort zone by what the church has provided. One would think he stop lying about stealing from God's House and set the congregation free from tithing and only give if they want to give for God loves a cheerful giver.

So Paul does not have to say faith alone when he has said faith without works is how Abraham was justified by God.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So Paul does not need to write plainly 'faith without works" because those words above says the same thing.

Again..

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So faith with works for salvation has been refuted plainly by the scripture but it will take the Lord to help believers see the truth in His words.

 

[robert derrick]

that sums up any and all posts by you. You need to learn a new trick for sure, but i figured i’d show you some actual truth today. Here we have famed presbyterian/calvinist theologian RC Sproul set you straight.

The doctrine of justification:
“Our justification before God is apart from any good works we have done. This is because any good works done without faith are not good at all in God's sight. Such outwardly good works are really assertions of our own self-righteousness. For us to be justified, Jesus must pay the penalty for our sins, and we must receive that payment by faith in His completed work, His death and life.”

and now, the doctrine of OSAS:
“If you have it, you never lose it; if you lose it, you never had it. This pithy adage gives expression to the doctrine in the church that some call the doctrine of eternal security, while others refer to it as the “perseverance of the saints.” Among the latter group, the perseverance of the saints makes up the fifth point of the so-called “Five Points of Calvinism” that are encapsulated in the acronym TULIP — the “P,” the final point, standing for “perseverance of the saints.” Another way of expressing the doctrine in pithy categories is by the phrase, “once in grace, always in grace.”

The idea of the perseverance of the saints is distinguished from the doctrine of the assurance of salvation, though it can never be separated from it. There are those Christians in church history who have affirmed that a Christian can have assurance of his salvation, but that his assurance is only for the moment. One can know that he is in a state of grace today, but with that knowledge, or assurance, there is no further guarantee that he will remain in that state of grace tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, or unto death. On the other hand, those who believe in the perseverance of the saints believe also that one can have the assurance of salvation, not only for today, but forever. So again, we see that perseverance is distinguished from assurance but can never be divorced from it.

“At the end of Paul’s ministry, in his final letter to Timothy, he decried the departure of Demas, who had forsaken Paul, because Demas, a previous co-worker alongside the apostle, loved this present world. And so the assumption is that Demas, as well as others who started out with a vital profession of faith, ended in the destruction and the abyss of apostasy. How else do we understand the urgent warnings given in the sixth chapter of Hebrews? Here we have to say, without straining the text, that the New Testament, despite these warnings of apostasy, makes it clear that those who commit such acts of full and final apostasy were never really believers in the first place. John writes in his epistle: “Those who went out from us were never really among us” (1 John 2:19).”

And there it is robert derrick. True theology, Biblical doctrine, from a most wise teacher, RC Sproul. *mic drop*

Now that you actually being something to the table than your usual childish trolling, I am happy to respond:

“Our justification before God is apart from any good works we have done." True theology, Biblical doctrine, from a most wise teacher.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works.

Most wise heretic.

This is because any good works done without faith are not good at all in God's sight. Such outwardly good works are really assertions of our own self-righteousness.

The source of his heresy is purposely confusing believers doing the works of His righteousness by His faith, with the self-righteous doing the works of our own righteousness without His faith Calvinists call them doing His righteousness even He is righteous, self-righteous hypocrites.

The unrighteous, like Cain, must falsely accuse the righteous, like Abel, in order to sear their own unrighteous souls and conscineces.

Paul rebuked salvation by our own works, and James rebuked justification without His works.

“If you have it, you never lose it; if you lose it, you never had it. This pithy adage.

Pithy adage doth not sound doctrine of Scripture make.

Scripture never speaks of 'having' nor 'losing' salvation; therefore, this pithy adage is carnal minded rubbish. (To be pithy about it)

Scripture speaks of being saved, falling from grace, and not being saved lest we repent.

'Losing' salvation has nothing to do with the Scripture, and is only a side show to avoid the heresy of salvation by faith alone, without need of justification by works of faith.

One can know that he is in a state of grace today, but with that knowledge, or assurance, there is no further guarantee that he will remain in that state of grace tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, or unto death.

More carnal mindedness that has nothing to do with Scripture:

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Saints with sound mind don't sit around worrying about 'being assured' they will 'be assured' tomorrow. That is psychological frailty of feeble minds.

The surety of obtaining eternal salvation in the end is knowing that if we endure temptation and obey Him by faith unto the end, we shall attain to the resurrection of the just.

On the other hand, those who believe in the perseverance of the saints believe also that one can have the assurance of salvation, not only for today, but forever.

Perseverance of Calvin is persevering in believing we are saved by faith alone, despite our own woks condemning us as children of disobedience and enemies of God:

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Calvin's heretical perseverance without works is the seared conscience of faith alone that can no longer be chastised unto repentance: blind perseverance of a dead faith doing despite to the Spirit of grace who calls us to repentance.

Here we have to say, without straining the text, that the New Testament, despite these warnings of apostasy, makes it clear that those who commit such acts of full and final apostasy were never really believers in the first place. John writes in his epistle:

And here Calvinists must say another heresy of 'never really were believers', in order to keep the first heresy of salvation by faith alone.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

They left their first love of God they had and His first works they were doing.

Scripture always outs the heretics.

“Those who went out from us were never really among us” (1 John 2:19).”

And likewise they must also twist Scripture to keep their destructive doctrine:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1. They obviously were 'among' them, else they could not have went out from them without first being among them.
2. Nowhere does Scripture say they 'never really were' of them.

Only when they went out from them, was it made manifest that they were not of them at that time.

Scripture does not say they were never really of them from the beginning of their being with them: that is the presumptive falsehood necessary for heretics to retain their false doctrine against Scripture rebuking their heresy.

Scripture shows the exact history of all them that were of God, and then by disobedience of transgression were no longer of God, even as Cain who went out from the presence of God.

Lucifer was a perfect creation of God, until iniquity was found in him and became the devil no more of God.

Adam was the son of God, until after His transgression without repentance, and was made dead to God.

King Saul was anointed king of God, until by transgression he was rejected of God being His anointed and king.

Judas was a chosen apostle of Christ, until he betrayed Him for silver and gold, and was then made the son of perdition.

Demas was a faithful servant of God in the ministry of Christ with Paul, until like Judas, he loved this world rather than God, and so forsook Paul in the ministry of Christ:

Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more.

Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Now that you actually being something to the table than your usual childish trolling, I am happy to respond:

“Our justification before God is apart from any good works we have done." True theology, Biblical doctrine, from a most wise teacher.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works.

Most wise heretic.

This is because any good works done without faith are not good at all in God's sight. Such outwardly good works are really assertions of our own self-righteousness.

The source of his heresy is purposely confusing believers doing the works of His righteousness by His faith, with the self-righteous doing the works of our own righteousness without His faith Calvinists call them doing His righteousness even He is righteous, self-righteous hypocrites.

The unrighteous, like Cain, must falsely accuse the righteous, like Abel, in order to sear their own unrighteous souls and conscineces.

Paul rebuked salvation by our own works, and James rebuked justification without His works.

“If you have it, you never lose it; if you lose it, you never had it. This pithy adage.

Pithy adage doth not sound doctrine of Scripture make.

Scripture never speaks of 'having' nor 'losing' salvation; therefore, this pithy adage is carnal minded rubbish. (To be pithy about it)

Scripture speaks of being saved, falling from grace, and not being saved lest we repent.

'Losing' salvation has nothing to do with the Scripture, and is only a side show to avoid the heresy of salvation by faith alone, without need of justification by works of faith.

One can know that he is in a state of grace today, but with that knowledge, or assurance, there is no further guarantee that he will remain in that state of grace tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, or unto death.

More carnal mindedness that has nothing to do with Scripture:

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Saints with sound mind don't sit around worrying about 'being assured' they will 'be assured' tomorrow. That is psychological frailty of feeble minds.

The surety of obtaining eternal salvation in the end is knowing that if we endure temptation and obey Him by faith unto the end, we shall attain to the resurrection of the just.

On the other hand, those who believe in the perseverance of the saints believe also that one can have the assurance of salvation, not only for today, but forever.

Perseverance of Calvin is persevering in believing we are saved by faith alone, despite our own woks condemning us as children of disobedience and enemies of God:

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Calvin's heretical perseverance without works is the seared conscience of faith alone that can no longer be chastised unto repentance: blind perseverance of a dead faith doing despite to the Spirit of grace who calls us to repentance.

Here we have to say, without straining the text, that the New Testament, despite these warnings of apostasy, makes it clear that those who commit such acts of full and final apostasy were never really believers in the first place. John writes in his epistle:

And here Calvinists must say another heresy of 'never really were believers', in order to keep the first heresy of salvation by faith alone.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

They left their first love of God they had and His first works they were doing.

Scripture always outs the heretics.

“Those who went out from us were never really among us” (1 John 2:19).”

And likewise they must also twist Scripture to keep their destructive doctrine:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1. They obviously were 'among' them, else they could not have went out from them without first being among them.
2. Nowhere does Scripture say they 'never really were' of them.

Only when they went out from them, was it made manifest that they were not of them at that time.

Scripture does not say they were never really of them from the beginning of their being with them: that is the presumptive falsehood necessary for heretics to retain their false doctrine against Scripture rebuking their heresy.

Scripture shows the exact history of all them that were of God, and then by disobedience of transgression were no longer of God, even as Cain who went out from the presence of God.

Lucifer was a perfect creation of God, until iniquity was found in him and became the devil no more of God.

Adam was the son of God, until after His transgression without repentance, and was made dead to God.

King Saul was anointed king of God, until by transgression he was rejected of God being His anointed and king.

Judas was a chosen apostle of Christ, until he betrayed Him for silver and gold, and was then made the son of perdition.

Demas was a faithful servant of God in the ministry of Christ with Paul, until like Judas, he loved this world rather than God, and so forsook Paul in the ministry of Christ:

Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more.

Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

HaHa, heresy he said, numerous times at that. You just cant bring yourself to admit calvinism is Biblical, i suspect, because for you to admit it is goes against every false belief you’ve fallen for. Your pride wont allow for that. But im bringing in the power now, its time for another wise teacher by the name of paul washer.

the doctrine of OSAS:
“The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is not a license for sin or a means of giving false assurance of salvation to the carnal and ungodly. Yes, the doctrine affirms that God keeps those He saves, but it also affirms that He transforms those He keeps. The genuine believer has assurance of salvation not only because of a past profession of faith but also because of the ongoing work of God in His life that continues to transform him into the image of Christ. The person who professes faith in Christ and yet bears no evidence of faith, a divine work of regeneration, or the continuing work of divine providence can have little assurance of eternal life. This is not because he has lost a salvation he once possessed but because he is demonstrating that he never possessed the salvation he claims.”

and now for John MacArthur:
“True believers will persevere in faith to the end. Often that doctrine is called the “doctrine of eternal security.” Sometimes it’s sort of cryptically said, “Once saved, always saved.” And, of course, all of those things are true.
I want you to understand that this is a historic doctrine. I pointed out last time that it’s the most important component of salvation, because if salvation were not permanent, then the doctrine of election would be called into question; the doctrine of justification would be called into question; the doctrine of sanctification would be called into question; and the doctrine of glorification would be called into question; the calling of God would be called into question; and therefore, the work of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit would all be called into question as well.”

both of these men are baptist/calvinist teachers, wise beyond their years.

 

[robert derrick]

You don't even read what you are quoting.

You quoted me:


Then you tell me that I am preaching salvation by faith.

You quoted me:


Then you tell me that I am not engaging the topic of justification.

I have a hard time taking you seriously.

As was I with you, but since you are obviously sincere, then I will try once more.

The topic here is justification by works, and so my question to you is:

Are we as Abraham justified by works or not?

I have already heard your version of salvation by faith.

What do you say about justification by works?

 

[robert derrick]

HaHa, heresy he said, numerous times at that. You just cant bring yourself to admit calvinism is Biblical, i suspect, because for you to admit it is goes against every false belief you’ve fallen for. Your pride wont allow for that. But im bringing in the power now, its time for another wise teacher by the name of paul washer.

the doctrine of OSAS:
“The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is not a license for sin or a means of giving false assurance of salvation to the carnal and ungodly. Yes, the doctrine affirms that God keeps those He saves, but it also affirms that He transforms those He keeps. The genuine believer has assurance of salvation not only because of a past profession of faith but also because of the ongoing work of God in His life that continues to transform him into the image of Christ. The person who professes faith in Christ and yet bears no evidence of faith, a divine work of regeneration, or the continuing work of divine providence can have little assurance of eternal life. This is not because he has lost a salvation he once possessed but because he is demonstrating that he never possessed the salvation he claims.”

and now for John MacArthur:
“True believers will persevere in faith to the end. Often that doctrine is called the “doctrine of eternal security.” Sometimes it’s sort of cryptically said, “Once saved, always saved.” And, of course, all of those things are true.
I want you to understand that this is a historic doctrine. I pointed out last time that it’s the most important component of salvation, because if salvation were not permanent, then the doctrine of election would be called into question; the doctrine of justification would be called into question; the doctrine of sanctification would be called into question; and the doctrine of glorification would be called into question; the calling of God would be called into question; and therefore, the work of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit would all be called into question as well.”

both of these men are baptist/calvinist teachers, wise beyond their years.

Thanks again for some substance.

The person who professes faith in Christ and yet bears no evidence of faith, a divine work of regeneration, or the continuing work of divine providence can have little assurance of eternal life.

So, then we are justified by works, which show the evidence of the faith of the Jesus abiding in the heart.

So, why why all the arguing against the topic of the thread: Justification by works?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is both the substance of God in the heart and the evidence of God by works in the life.

Faith is both believing and obeying.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Thanks again for some substance.

The person who professes faith in Christ and yet bears no evidence of faith, a divine work of regeneration, or the continuing work of divine providence can have little assurance of eternal life.

So, then we are justified by works, which show the evidence of the faith of the Jesus abiding in the heart.

So, why why all the arguing against the topic of the thread: Justification by works?.

because you believe that salvation can be lost. The difference is you say it can be lost, i say no it cant. So the issue of works done properly comes up. James talks about this, you have some we call legalists, and others who do works in Jesus’ name. There is a difference. Good works outright are not necessarily a sign of true conversion.

 

[robert derrick]

because you believe that salvation can be lost. The difference is you say it can be lost, i say no it cant. So the issue of works done properly comes up. James talks about this, you have some we call legalists, and others who do works in Jesus’ name. There is a difference. Good works outright are not necessarily a sign of true conversion.

Now you are finally getting to some good points.

1. because you believe that salvation can be lost.

I reject 'losing' salvation as a worthless argument made up to justify being saved by faith alone.

Today and the end of our days in the flesh is the only judgement makes of man. If the righteous returns to their sins of the past, He remembers their righteousness no more. If sinners repent of their sins of the past, He remembers their sins and iniquities no more.

We are being saved to day by His faith with His righteousness, or we are not. Yesterday matters not, neither do we take thought for tomorrow, for sufficient for the day is enduring the evil temptation thereof.

2. James talks about this, you have some we call legalists, and others who do works in Jesus’ name. There is a difference. Good works outright are not necessarily a sign of true conversion.

You and others therefore have been unduly misstating living blamelessly in Christ and being thus justified by works.

We are not saved nor justified by our own self-righteous works, which are not by the faith of Jesus, and so not pleasing to God.

We are justified and obtain eternal salvation by doing the works of His righteousness, even as He is righteous.

We are not saved by faith alone apart from being justified by works of His faith, nor are we justified by works alone apart from His faith.

If you say we are saved by grace through faith, and we are justified by works of faith, then we agree on both salvation and justification of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Now you are finally getting to some good points.

1. because you believe that salvation can be lost.

I reject 'losing' salvation as a worthless argument made up to justify being saved by faith alone.

Today and the end of our days in the flesh is the only judgement makes of man. If the righteous returns to their sins of the past, He remembers their righteousness no more. If sinners repent of their sins of the past, He remembers their sins and iniquities no more.

if a truly saved person falls into sin, the question is, are they a back slider or just a false convert? The answer is, it depends on the time.
If a person is saved, truly saved, and they pick up a sinful trait, and lets say they do this for 6 months, unaware that its a sin. Then one day, say an elder, tells them hey man, you cant be doing that, its a sin. and immediately they repent of that sin, never doing it again. That is a back slider. They never lost their salvation.

Now lets say little johnny got “saved” at age 12. And then little johnny grew up, got in HS, got involved with sex or drugs, took on sinful lifestyles and never gave it any thought. Then they get to their 40s, and they realize that they need to “get back in the faith.” And they get “saved again.” Little johnny, despite being “saved” when he was little was never saved to begin with. Thats a false convert.

if anyone claims they are saved, yet goes on to live like devils, especially for decades at a time, they were never saved to begin with. Now here is where the distinction between us becomes apparent.
You would say, that little johnny was indeed saved early on, and that if he had died shortly after getting “saved” the first time, he would have went to Heaven. I would have said no, he was never saved to begin with and if he had died at any point till he got truly saved while in his 40s, he would have went to hell. See the difference?

 

[robert derrick]

if a truly saved person falls into sin, the question is, are they a back slider or just a false convert? The answer is, it depends on the time.
If a person is saved, truly saved, and they pick up a sinful trait, and lets say they do this for 6 months, unaware that its a sin. Then one day, say an elder, tells them hey man, you cant be doing that, its a sin. and immediately they repent of that sin, never doing it again. That is a back slider. They never lost their salvation.

Now lets say little johnny got “saved” at age 12. And then little johnny grew up, got in HS, got involved with sex or drugs, took on sinful lifestyles and never gave it any thought. Then they get to their 40s, and they realize that they need to “get back in the faith.” And they get “saved again.” Little johnny, despite being “saved” when he was little was never saved to begin with. Thats a false convert.

if anyone claims they are saved, yet goes on to live like devils, especially for decades at a time, they were never saved to begin with. Now here is where the distinction between us becomes apparent.
You would say, that little johnny was indeed saved early on, and that if he had died shortly after getting “saved” the first time, he would have went to Heaven. I would have said no, he was never saved to begin with and if he had died at any point till he got truly saved while in his 40s, he would have went to hell. See the difference?

I see the difference between you trying to argue doctrine of Christ, while making your own judgments from hypothetical situations, and my arguing doctrine from Scripture, and let God do the judging of all things.

And so, as I said:

If you say we are saved by grace through faith, and we are justified by works of faith, then we agree on both salvation and justification of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Rudometkin]

As was I with you, but since you are obviously sincere, then I will try once more.

The topic here is justification by works, and so my question to you is:

Are we as Abraham justified by works or not?

I have already heard your version of salvation by faith.

What do you say about justification by works?

I don't have a version of salvation by faith. We are not saved by our faith. I mean it plain and simple but you won't listen. You keep twisting my position. Why? We are not saved by faith.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:8)

We are saved by Grace. Grace is nothing we control.

Faith and works occur as a result of being saved. It is God working in you.

Everything we obtain is in Christ. Salvation, Justification, Righteousness, everything is Christ. You are trying to separate these things, but Jesus is the way. The Father accepts only the blood of Christ. That is what we need.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

Abraham was not justified before God by His own works. God demands perfection. The best Abraham could do is give God dirty rags.

Abraham could not even believe in God on his own. God worked in Abraham. We are justified by Christ's works. Christ is our righteousness plain and simple.

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. (Matthew 3:15)

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (Romans 4:2)

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

 

[quietthinker]

Hi @Rudometkin It's interesting that in Ephesians 2 Paul says 'not of works' in verse 9, and immediately says, For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works...', in verse 10. Works follow faith.

very good farouk!

 

[quietthinker]

Like what?

Knowledge doesn't justify, no more than faith alone, which is vain imagination.

Only works of faith justify any believer:

The just shall live by faith.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

does faith have merit in its own right?.....I think not. Faith is the hand that grasps the gift.

 

[Christ4Me]

This was about reproving the thinking that water baptism as being necessary for salvation BUT he does address Abraham & how he was considered righteous but not by works but by believing in Him. I do not agree with everything CARM says but with this video, I am in agreement.

 

[Wynona]

Christ's doctrine of justification is neither by faith only nor by works only: Christians are imputed righteousness by faith unto good works inwardly and justified by those good works of faith outwardly.

Scripture speaks of imputed righteousness of faith, not of imputed justification by faith.

Trying to equate imputed righteousness of God by faith with justification of God without works is false: justification of God is not the imputed righteousness of God.

The fundamental error of trusting in Scriptures written by Paul, but not trusting in Scriptures written by James, is due to wanting to see a faith-only doctrine from Paul the apostle, and a salvation by works only from James the apostle.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Believing that Scripture doe snot contradict itself, and that both Paul and James are writing Scriptures from Jesus for His doctrine of justification, the rightly dividing the word of truth is necessary to reconcile the Scriptures written by Paul and James.

1. Paul never says we are justified by faith alone. That is an added word to the Scripture by man.

2. James is saying a definitive Scripture of being justified by works, which is directly contradicting by justification is by faith alone, 'apart from' works.

To the unobjectively reader, this is obvious, but to the subjective reader it is troublesome to the false doctrine of unconditional salvation 'apart from' works, since we cannot be saved by God apart from being justified with God.

The battleground therefore is not the argument of unconditional salvation, nor being saved by faith, but is the doctrine of only being justified by works: we cannot be justified by faith alone, which is never written in Scripture, and apart from works, and directly contradicts Scripture.

Therefore, the real task is to reconcile the apparent contradiction of Scripture written by Paul and James.

Thank you for your posts.

There is a lack of balance in a lot of the Christian messages of today. The balance leans towards popular theologians and teachers, rather than Scripture.

It also leans towards grace and justification but away from righteousness and holiness. And so you have entire systems of thought and traditions built on sinking sand.

Our job is to love the truth more than we love our popular sayings and systems. That's why studying the Bible for yourself is so important.

 

[Enoch111]

Trying to equate imputed righteousness of God by faith with justification of God without works is false: justification of God is not the imputed righteousness of God.

How can this be "false" when the Bible plainly teaches this? Looks like you have shown yourself to hold false teachings not just here but in other posts also. Do you even understand the meaning of justification by grace through faith? I doubt it.

 

[Enoch111]

Thank you for your posts.

So you are essentially agreeing with false teacher Robert Derrick? Kindly go back to the Bible and see why his belief is false.

 

[Enoch111]

Christ's doctrine of justification is neither by faith only nor by works only: Christians are imputed righteousness by faith unto good works inwardly and justified by those good works of faith outwardly.

OK. Let's deal with this FALSE TEACHING in the light of Gospel truth, and also a proper interpretation of what James had to say.

A. WHAT IS JUSTIFICATION?
Strong's Concordance
dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Definition: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Usage: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon clarifies this further:
1. properly, (according to the analogy of other verbs ending in , as τυφλόω, δουλόω) to make δίκαιος; to render righteous or such as he ought to be
3. τινα, to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
3 a. with the negative idea predominant, to declare guiltless one accused or who may be accused, acquitted of a charge or reproach
3 b. with the positive idea predominant, to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable
So justification = to be declared or pronounced to be righteous.

B. WHO IS THE ONE WHO JUSTIFIES?
It is God Himself -- Almighty God -- who justifies purely by His grace.

C. WHO IS THE ONE WHO IS JUSTIFIED?
It is the vilest of sinners who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, e.g. the criminal on the cross, and Saul the persecutor of Christians

D. ON WHAT GROUNDS CAN GOD BE JUST AND THE JUSTIFIER OF THE UNGODLY?
On the sole basis of the finished work of Christ -- His sacrificial death, His burial, and His resurrection.

E. WHY IS JUSTIFICATION APART FROM WORKS?
Because it is purely by the grace of God that any sinner may be justified.

F. HOW DO WE KNOW THIS IS TRUE?
The fourth chapter of the epistle to the Romans lays it all out in black and white.

G. ARE WE THEN SAVED (JUSTIFIED) UNTO GOOD WORKS?
Absolutely. But the works DO NOT justify us. See Ephesians 2:8-10

To understand justification by grace through faith we must enter the Divine Courtroom of God, with God presiding as the absolutely righteous Judge. When we stand before Him, how do we plead? "GUILTY". All of us are guilty of violating one, or more, or all, of God's commandments. What is the just penalty for our guilt? It is death -- both the first and second deaths. But God does not desire to see anyone in Hell (the Lake of Fire created for the devil and his angels).

Therefore Christ paid the full penalty for our sins on the cross, and rose again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION. But how do we appropriate this opportunity to be justified? By obedience to the Gospel, which is repentance toward God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. So the moment a sinner calls upon the Lord to be saved (Romans 10) he or she is justified -- declared righteous and at the same time declared "NOT GUILTY". This has absolutely nothing to do with the future good works God expects from His children.

 

[Christ4Me]

Thank you for your posts.

There is a lack of balance in a lot of the Christian messages of today. The balance leans towards popular theologians and teachers, rather than Scripture.

And the OP is an example.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

To be clear, this reference below refutes the OP and his second post.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Works has its place but not for our salvation les we deny Him His glory as our Savior. Works are the result of living as His disciple in trusting Him to work in us & thru us as He helps us to abide in Him & His words in following Him as His friend where we may bear fruit and that our joy may be full waking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

It also leans towards grace and justification but away from righteousness and holiness. And so you have entire systems of thought and traditions built on sinking sand.

The gospel message of salvation can never be confused with discipleship in running that race which is also by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily to walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To run that race to obtain salvation is to deny Him as our Savior that we are saved and that is sinking sand.

Our job is to love the truth more than we love our popular sayings and systems. That's why studying the Bible for yourself is so important.

I agree, but by His grace & by His help, I do so trusting Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd & Friend to help me understand His words in the KJV to discern good & evil by the meat of His words in keeping the faith which is the good fight.

 

[robert derrick]

This was about reproving the thinking that water baptism as being necessary for salvation BUT he does address Abraham & how he was considered righteous but not by works but by believing in Him. I do not agree with everything CARM says but with this video, I am in agreement.

While he is correct about water baptism, he reads Scripture of justification in Romans, without reading that in James.

By doing so, he rejects Scripture In James in order to favor his personal view of Scripture in Romans.

Ye see then how that by works of faith a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law without faith, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

So, which do you choose over the other, and agree Scripture contradicts itself?

And, you can read what I've already posted as my answer, if you like.