quietthinker
Well-Known Member
what about justification by having all the right views, angles, position, arguments?
Justification By Works
- Thread starter robert derrick
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Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
Now look at what Paul said in Eph. 2:10:
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
It is true that a Christian is saved by faith, but biblical faith doesn't exclude obeying God. Too many people like to dishonestly reference/quote verses 8-9 while leaving out verse 10. Paul completely agreed with James and Jesus that a person's obedience to God proves their belief in Him is alive and real. As Jesus Himself said in Matt. 7:21, the people who are doers of His Father's will are the ones who will receive salvation. Biblical faith is not just a matter of accepting Jesus' existence. Abraham is called the father of the faithful because his belief translated to action.
Rudometkin
Active Member
We are not saved by our doing nor our faith. Christians are not saved by their faith. Christians are saved by Grace. By grace through faith. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of faith. Christians have faith because they are saved.
Jesus is the gift of Salvation that takes a dead sinner and gives them life with faith.
Christians disobey God on a daily basis in their own hearts. Merely one moment of doubt makes you deserving of eternal hellfire. God demands perfection. It's not because of you that you are saved. It's not because of your faith. It is not that Christ wakes you up and then it's on you to maintain your Salvation. Christ saves. The perfection God demands is only found in the blood of Christ. And it always stays that way. Only those who believe totally on Christ alone for Salvation will be saved. Believing on Christ is evidence you will be saved.
Doers of the Father's will are saved not because they did the Father's will. They do the Father's will because they are saved. They do not look to themselves for Salvation. They look to Christ for Salvation.
The Father's will is to believe on Jesus.
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)
What actions do the saved do? Do they do enough? Only if you pull down God's law to make yourself fit it, can you believe you do enough to be saved. People think, "Now I'm good enough. I do good, so I'm acceptable". God still demands perfection, and they still aren't perfect by what they do. Christ is our perfection. I don't look at our actions. I look at Christ. I believe if I fall away into doubt and lose my mind, Christ will still save me. I sit and stare at Christ's blood, believing that His blood will save me. That's all I do. That's where rest in Christ is. It's in Christ. I just look at Christ and believe He will save me. I still stumble. But I believe I am protected by Christ, and nothing will separate that.
What is with the focus on man in Salvation here? "Saved by works!" "Saved by faith!" Whose works? Whose faith? Saved by Christ. He already did the work. It's already done. Everything else is arguing back and forth.
Scripture says Christ is all.
We are not the point. Christ is the point.
Christ is the centerpiece of the Bible.
This thread is hung up on the works of men. The focus is off Christ. I think the focus needs to be put on Christ. He is the only way.
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Hi @Rudometkin It's interesting that in Ephesians 2 Paul says 'not of works' in verse 9, and immediately says, For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works...', in verse 10. Works follow faith.
So, neither Abraham nor his children of faith are justified by works?
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Works follow faith.
True, the works of Christ are with the faith of Jesus unto justification by those works, without which we will never be overcomers unto the end:
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations
Paul rebukes works without the faith of Jesus, and James rebukes justification without His works of faith.
Faith alone is dead, and works alone do not please God.
The unbelieving Jews trust in works alone, and the disobedient Christians trust in faith alone.
God saves His people from their sins by His true faith, not with their sins by their own dead faith:
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
What is with the focus on man in Salvation here? "Saved by works!" "Saved by faith!"
Actually the focus is justified by works.
Everything else is arguing back and forth.
There is no back and forth, until you actually argue the point of JUSTIFICATION, rather than showcasing your unfocused speech on saved by faith alone, which is dead.
This thread is hung up on the works of men.
This thread is about justification by works. OSAS is so hung up on their own dead faith, that they can't even acknowledge the doctrine of justification of Christ.
To dead Christians, any works are anathema, and so they always equate doing our own works of righteousness with doing Christ's works of His righteousness:
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.
Jesus is the gift of Salvation
This is scriptureless baby talk of a carnal mind trying to sound like the Word of God: God is not a 'gift' to men.
By Scripture we know that the faith of Jesus is the gift to men, through which we are saved by grace.
Christians are not saved by their faith.
True, God's people are not saved by their faith, which is dead, but by God's faith only, which is the faith of Jesus:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Only those who believe totally on Christ alone for Salvation will be saved.
Another scriptureless way of saying we are saved totally by faith alone. No one believes on Christ and Allah for salvation, except for the Unitarian pagans I suppose.
The Father's will is to believe on Jesus.
And to honor and obey Him, even as we honor and obey the Father: believing on Him without honoring and obeying Him is the faith alone of devils and the children of disobedience.
They do the Father's will because they are saved.
And so are justified by doing the works of the Father's will to obey Jesus: no justification by works, no salvation by faith.
Salvation by dead faith alone gives lip service to doing the Father's will, because it is only a matter of choice to do so, not a matter of being saved and justified by doing so.
The hypocrisy is to preach faith alone for salvation, and then to preach obeying him as being part of faith, and yet being apart from salvation: saved by faith alone without being justified by works.
Dead Christians separate works from their faith alone, and so separate being justified with God from being saved by God.
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Loving our neighbors is in deed and in truth, not in word and tongue of faith alone: love is obedience to the faith, perfecting the works of faith.
OSAS demonizes the word 'works', yet quotes the commandment to love God and one another, which are the works of faith in God.
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Faith without works is the vain faith of dead Christians, whose faith alone is dead in a cold heart of them that do not love to obey Him from the heart:
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Christians disobey God on a daily basis in their own hearts.
Dead Christians do. Because they allow lust to remain in the heart, rather than repent of their sins of the flesh:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Merely one moment of doubt makes you deserving of eternal hellfire.
No saint in Christ Jesus ever 'doubts' Jesus is the Christ, and they know they have eternal life, being obedient to Him in every good work.
Dead Christians of faith alone will no doubt 'doubt' God even exists from time to time, because their faith is as empty as the air itself.
It's not 'doubt' about Jesus being the Lord that is the problem of faith alone, but willful disobedience to Jesus as Lord in the heart, mind, and body:
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Dead faith alone only draws nigh to God with their lips about believing Him, but not doing His will.
God demands perfection.
God commands living righteously, holily, blamelessly and being pure in this world even as He is. Dead Christians purposely try to equate obeying God with being already resurrected in perfection. It's an old childish dead horse they keep trying to beat over and over again.
I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Faith alone rejects doing any works of Christ in their lives for eternal salvation, much less perfecting them as overcomers in blameless living of the saints.
Believing on Christ is evidence you will be saved.
Believing unseen is vain imagination of faith alone in the mind only:
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Believing only without works of Christ to shew for it, is evidence of dead faith, being alone.
What actions do the saved do? Do they do enough? Only if you pull down God's law to make yourself fit it, can you believe you do enough to be saved. People think, "Now I'm good enough. I do good, so I'm acceptable".
A perfect example of foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
It's the meaningless rambling of the carnal mind, that equates works of His righteousness by faith with works of our own righteousness without faith, as well as equating righteous living as He is righteous with sinless perfection of the resurrection of the body.
I believe if I fall away into doubt and lose my mind, Christ will still save me.
This is surreal sophistry of an unsound mound that 'believes' falling away into a lost mind of lust and sins of the flesh is still being saved:
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
I sit and stare at Christ's blood, believing that His blood will save me.
How does one 'stare' at the blood of Christ?? Especially with a lost mind?? Surreal and dystopian.
That's all I do.
And sadly, that's all you've got: a dead faith sitting alone in a mind made unsound and seared by a devilish doctrine of unjustified faith alone, without any justification of God to show for it.
You need to unlearn your OSAS mantra and learn the Scriptures and begin to believe them as they are written.
When you are ready to do so, then perhaps you will actually address the doctrine of justification by works through faith of Christ.
Christ is my Righteousness. He is my Justification. Do you see?
I see you are adding to the Scripture you're own false doctrine of justification: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.
God's righteousness is imputed unto us by faith unto justification of obedience to the faith:
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
He is my Salvation. Remove Him, and you remove it all.
OSAS gibberish.
We remove His obedience to the faith for His justification, and all is removed from us.
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
The best you can bring to God is dirty rags.
You purposely confuse our works of righteousness with His works of righteousness, in order to justify yourself with faith alone, which is dead:
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.
Both Paul and James agree obedience to God's will justifies, therefore neither would ever CONTRADICT himself by saying faith apart from obedient works (faith alone) justifies
Which of course the whole point of the thread: Scripture does not contradict itself; therefore, reading of Scripture must reconcile any apparent contradiction: Scripture declares we are justified by works, without which faith is alone and dead.
Therefore, Scripture speaking of not being justified by works of the law must mean works without faith, even as the Jews of old.
The seared conscience that OSAS leads to is a willful blindness to any Scripture that contradicts their faith alone salvation.
They are unwilling to even acknowledge being justified by works of faith.
Because there is no salvation without justification; therefore, there is no being saved by faith alone without works that justify our faith.
The beginning of their error is trusting in a faith of their own that saves, and not the only faith of God that saves: the faith of Jesus.
They are not believing Jesus as Christ and so obeying Him as Lord for eternal salvation, but are believing in another christ and grace that saves without need of any justification at all.
Like what?
Knowledge doesn't justify, no more than faith alone, which is vain imagination.
Only works of faith justify any believer:
The just shall live by faith.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
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Rudometkin
Active Member
I never argued salvation by faith alone. I specifically said not saved by faith.
This is why I don't spend much time engaging with people.
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
that sums up any and all posts by you. You need to learn a new trick for sure, but i figured i’d show you some actual truth today. Here we have famed presbyterian/calvinist theologian RC Sproul set you straight.
The doctrine of justification:
“Our justification before God is apart from any good works we have done. This is because any good works done without faith are not good at all in God's sight. Such outwardly good works are really assertions of our own self-righteousness. For us to be justified, Jesus must pay the penalty for our sins, and we must receive that payment by faith in His completed work, His death and life.”
and now, the doctrine of OSAS:
“If you have it, you never lose it; if you lose it, you never had it. This pithy adage gives expression to the doctrine in the church that some call the doctrine of eternal security, while others refer to it as the “perseverance of the saints.” Among the latter group, the perseverance of the saints makes up the fifth point of the so-called “Five Points of Calvinism” that are encapsulated in the acronym TULIP — the “P,” the final point, standing for “perseverance of the saints.” Another way of expressing the doctrine in pithy categories is by the phrase, “once in grace, always in grace.”
The idea of the perseverance of the saints is distinguished from the doctrine of the assurance of salvation, though it can never be separated from it. There are those Christians in church history who have affirmed that a Christian can have assurance of his salvation, but that his assurance is only for the moment. One can know that he is in a state of grace today, but with that knowledge, or assurance, there is no further guarantee that he will remain in that state of grace tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, or unto death. On the other hand, those who believe in the perseverance of the saints believe also that one can have the assurance of salvation, not only for today, but forever. So again, we see that perseverance is distinguished from assurance but can never be divorced from it.
“At the end of Paul’s ministry, in his final letter to Timothy, he decried the departure of Demas, who had forsaken Paul, because Demas, a previous co-worker alongside the apostle, loved this present world. And so the assumption is that Demas, as well as others who started out with a vital profession of faith, ended in the destruction and the abyss of apostasy. How else do we understand the urgent warnings given in the sixth chapter of Hebrews? Here we have to say, without straining the text, that the New Testament, despite these warnings of apostasy, makes it clear that those who commit such acts of full and final apostasy were never really believers in the first place. John writes in his epistle: “Those who went out from us were never really among us” (1 John 2:19).”
And there it is robert derrick. True theology, Biblical doctrine, from a most wise teacher, RC Sproul. *mic drop*
Rudometkin
Active Member
Yes, thank God works follow faith and faith follows Salvation. It is not that I am good, but that He works in me. I do not enjoy sinning.
This is why I don't spend much time engaging with people.
Because you don't engage the topic at hand. Which is being justified by works, and not by faith alone.
Which therefore preaches being saved by faith alone, because there is no salvation by faith without justification by works.
Not actually engaging the topic is a disappointment.
Rudometkin
Active Member
You don't even read what you are quoting.
You quoted me:
Then you tell me that I am preaching salvation by faith.
You quoted me:
Then you tell me that I am not engaging the topic of justification.
I have a hard time taking you seriously.
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
dont worry, 99% of this forum dont listen to him either. He just rambles about “calvinists are evil, blah blah, OSAS is evil, blah blah, blah.” He’s like the old man feeding the birds at the park who cusses to himself.
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