Wow, that's really big!Well, I suppose there is no way you will EVER convince me as, I was not predestined to believe it...
BTW-how can there be consequences without choice?
Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Men have been commanded to believe, as n Acts of the Apostles 16:31. The imperative given to men to believe implies that man has ability and responsibility to believe. It would make no sense for God command men to believe if men were unable to do so. Those who do choose to believe are then being obedient to God's command while those who choose not to believe are being disobedient (John 3:36). So GOd has no culpability in those who choose not believe nor does God force men to believe against their will.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The election of Jacob and Israel was not about salvation no more than the non-election of Esau and Edomites was about their condemnation. God can mercy upon whom He chooses to have mercy means God can have mercy upon the Gentiles even thought they were not of the elect and God does not have to show mercy to the Jews even though they were elect for God broke the Jews off due to unbelief. Obviously the election of Jacob/Israel had nothing to do with salvation and the non-election of Esau/Edomites did not mean they must be lost.
ANY who obey God's will are of God's elect whether they be Jew or Gentile. Note Romans 9:15 does not give a basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others but that does not mean it is done randomly. Jeremiah 18:8-10 GOd has mercy upon those who obey Him and no mercy for those who will not obey Him. So obedience has always been the dividing line between the elect and lost. So even though Jacob?Israel was elected to being Christ into the world they still had to obey God to be saved and the Jews would not (Romans 10) hence they were broken off (Romans 11). Though Esau/Edomites were not elected to bring Christ into the world they could still be saved by obeying God as non-elect Gentiles were as Rahab. So it's obedience that is the basis as to whom God saves and salvation is not based upon an arbitrary, unconditional choice God made for men before the world began.
The consequence is ALL have sinned. God says the soul that sins SHALL DIE.
Everyone is spiritually dead, they are all by nature children of wrath, like Ephesians 2 says this way. The difference is God loved the elect enough to make them live. God chose to bless them with merciful salvation and not the others.
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
I dont think you really believe the scriptures, how could you, people can see that from the snarky responses you type.
If you sin even one SIN, You have sinned against the whole law.
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
Without Hope and Without God in the World !
Eph 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
All of us when left in a state of nature, born dead in trespasses and sins, without spiritual life, the indictment is we are in and of ourselves without hope, that is without Christ, without God, and without life.
In this condition we dont seek or even desire the True God Rom 3:11, and there's absolutely nothing a person can do to change out of this spiritually dead state, no not even his so called freewill ! No matter what we do naturally, as moral or religious persons, we are still without hope and spiritually dead to God.
The only hope a person has from escaping this spiritually dead plight is the True God ! That is God must out of pure Mercy quicken one Eph 2:1,4-5
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Other than this, man is without hope !
Eph 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
All of us when left in a state of nature, born dead in trespasses and sins, without spiritual life, the indictment is we are in and of ourselves without hope, that is without Christ, without God, and without life.
In this condition we dont seek or even desire the True God Rom 3:11, and there's absolutely nothing a person can do to change out of this spiritually dead state, no not even his so called freewill ! No matter what we do naturally, as moral or religious persons, we are still without hope and spiritually dead to God.
The only hope a person has from escaping this spiritually dead plight is the True God ! That is God must out of pure Mercy quicken one Eph 2:1,4-5
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Other than this, man is without hope !
That man in Acts 16:31 was a regenerated man, not a natural man ! Paul was specifically speaking to that man and not the whole world.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The context does not call the man "regenerate", that idea is being added to the context. He was commanded to believe for he had the ability to believe and responsibility to do so. Therefore culpability falls upon men for not believing and not upon God for failing to "regenerate" men, failing to give men faith.
Acts 16, the man and all his household were saved that very night. God can work very fast saving people. The man asked what he can do to be saved, shows God had already regenerated him, making the man born of God, this happens in a quick instant. At one moment you are not regenerated, and the next you are. There is no long drawn out process of becoming born of God. There CAN be a long period of goading, like what happened with Saul who becomes Paul, The Holy Spirit was goading Paul and Paul was resisting as at that point Paul was still carnally minded. You can see that a lot talking with the unsaved about Christ, they will resist you and be antagonistic due to the enmity within them against God and Christ and you too.
Romans 8 demonstrates this well, the carnal mind is at enmity with God. This man was no longer at enmity with God and Christ.
Same thing with his household, the Holy Spirit moved on them all and they become born of God. v7 really makes this clear. The unsaved's carnal mind is NOT subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. Such a mind wont be receiving Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Acts 16
27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I already told you the Jacob Esau is correct. How many more times do you need to write it and me answer before you realize we agree?
all this is you ropinion and not Gods Word. If you read the rest of Romans 9 as cited, you would see that salvation is based on God's choice and not us having some sense that some can see th eneed while others cannot or whatever is the popular way of defending free will these days.
Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Read this carefully this time and see it has nothing to do with choices of favor, but who god chooses to save and who God chooses to let stay unsaved- both of teh Jews and the Gentiles.
numbers 18-24 are the word of God without any opinion.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The man was lost, he was spiritually dead yet commanded to believe and was able to believe. This man was "unregenerate" and while spiritually dead was still willing and able to hear, understand what was spoken to him and obey what he was commanded. I understand this does not agree with Calvinism, so Calvinism conveniently adds its idea of "regeneration" into the text to get around this sticky point even though that idea is not found in the text at all.
So Calvinism's idea of 'regeneration' can easily be rejected because:
1) it's not in the text but being ASSUMED into the text,
2) it makes God culpable for those unbelievers for failing to 'regenerate' them whereby they are then able to believe. Such an idea also makes God a respecter of persons in who He will or will not regenerate when He is not (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35).
3) the Bible puts belief BEFORE regeneration(the new birth).....Mark 16:16 puts belief before baptism (new birth). There is no such thing in the Bible as unbelieving yet regenerated person.
4) it is a personal choice each person makes if they have a carnal mind or spiritual mind. Either mind is not forced upon the individual against the individual's will....a carnal mind is not forced upon men by some depraved nature Calvinism wrongly claims man is born with. One can choose to have a carnal mind but upon hearing the gospel preached as in Acts 16, the message of the gospel can change one's thinking where a person then goes from choosing to have a carnal mind to choosing to be spiritually minded. So one chooses to set his own mind on the carnal or the spiritual (Romans 8:5).
Those then who choose to set their mind on the flesh have made themselves an enemy with God, they have chosen to disobey God's law, "neither indeed can be" does NOT mean one who lives ungodly cannot ever repent and turn to God but it means as long as they continue to pursue the carnal things they cannot be subject to God at the same time. The present tense of "is not subject to the law of God" shows as long as one CONTINUES to choose pursuing carnal things they cannot at the same time be keeping God's law. Therefore the inability in not submitting to God's laws is one of willful choice and not of necessity having been born totally depraved. Paul's point of the context is that the Christian cannot continue in sin, cannot keep pursuing the carnal yet still be pleasing to God. There is nothing in the context about men being totally depraved therefore unable to pursue things of the Spirit unless God first directly, miraculously acts upon man first. Those then who willfully choose to mind the flesh then have accountability to God for that free will choice.....
"How utterly wrong, therefore, and how totally incredible, is the delusion that any such thing as total hereditary depravity was taught by Paul in this verse.
Murray has this:
"In the whole passage we have the biblical basis for the doctrines of total depravity and total inability. ... "Enmity against God" is nothing other than total depravity, and "cannot please God" nothing less than total inability". (Cross Reference; John Murray, op. cit., p. 287.)
But, of course, the expressions cited by Murray refer to man's mind, not as it was by the endowment of birth, but as it became through his rebellion against God. Paul's teaching here corresponds exactly with that of Jesus regarding two masters (Matthew 6:24 (NAS)
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
If one decides to serve one, he cannot serve the other; but in the teaching both of Paul and of Jesus, the question of the soul's right to decide is never for an instant doubted. The impossibility of serving the other master cannot derive from any inborn condition, but it must always be viewed as the consequence of the soul's decision to serve one or the other, that option being the only one that God has given people."
Coffman Commentary (my emp)
Those as Murray ASSUME the carnal mind is a birth issue with total depravity but the context does not speak to how man is born but to which a man willfully chooses the carnal or spiritual, chooses God or mammon as Christ put it. And that choice is not derived from how one was innately born but is derived by the free will decision of each person.
Last edited:
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
You're not being consistent with election. What was true of Jacob's election is also true of his descendants election. So if it is true Jacob's election was unto salvation then it would be true that same election of Israel's election was also unto salvation. Yet most of Israel was lost throwing a wrench into Calvinism's election scheme so Calvinism is not consistent wanting Jacob's election being for salvation yet that SAME election of Israel was not for salvation. The election of Jacob and Israel was the same in being elected as the one's to bring Christ into the world and not election of salvation for either Jacob or Israel.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I am being very consistent! Jacobs descendants are forever elected according to the covenant as Paul says at the end of Romans 11. Esaus are forever not elected. In the context of what is being talked about there! Seriously? don't you understand rules of context and baisc grammar?
But for the third time, every time the word election appears it does not always mean about salvation!
To start believing the scriptures, it really requires breaking away from everything they have been taught how that God will never go against their free will. They have been raised and had it hammered into them that they have a libertarian freewill choice concerning believing in Christ, or following the devil and can make their own choice without acknowledging God.
People are not free to choose Christ, the scriptures tell us the minds of those who do not believe are blinded by Satan to the truth of Christ. As in 2 Corinthians 4.
And if they start changing their mind, then they are up against that doctrine of Calvinism and they have been taught that it is evil, that it turns God into a monster.
But he is regenerate. Only the regenerate can obey Gods command, otherwise man in the flesh, unregenerate cannot please God Rom 8:8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
And surely believing on Christ pleases God.
Also the carnal mind, the unregenerate mind cannot obey God Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
All men by nature dont have the ability to seek God, and they dont seek God Rom 3:11 and are in fact haters of the True God Rom 1:30
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
No doubt this is linked to the carnal mind is enmity against God Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Enmity means hostility; by implication, a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred., from another word which means:
Thats just how it is !
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
No doubt this is linked to the carnal mind is enmity against God Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Enmity means hostility; by implication, a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred., from another word which means:
- hated, odious, hateful
- hostile, hating, and opposing another
- used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
- opposing (God) in the mind
- used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
Thats just how it is !
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Anyone can obey God if they so choose. Disobedience, carnal mind, is a willful choice and not a necessity based upon how one is born. As long as one continues (present tense) pursuing carnal things he cannot be submissive to God's will...can't serve God and mammon at the same time... it's one or the other. Yet one can repent and become submissive to God's law. It's all a matter free will choice, not by some depraved nature one is born with. Paul does not speak about how men are born in Romans 8 but speaks to how men choose to set their minds. Men can rightly, justly be held accountable for what he chooses to set his mind on and not how he was innately born.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Paul does not say man is guiltless and unaccountable for not knowing the gospel. The veil was created by men blinding themselves by their own false biases and thinking. None are born with a totally depraved veil preventing them from seeing the truth. 2 Corinthians 4:2 false teachers use falsehoods and deceit to lure the hearer and the hearer allows himself to be deceived. Therefore that veil is a willful choice and not of necessity due to birth. Jeremiah 5:31 "The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?" People blind/veil themselves to the truth because they choose to love darkness more than light. Men cannot justly, righteously be condemned if they were innately born with a totally depraved veil and only able to love darkness. But can justly be condemned for their own free, willful choices.
Last edited:
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Election of Jacob and Israel was not about salvation for most Jews were lost. No-elect people were saved, as Rahab. Hence Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinisms 'salvation by election' error.
I am sorry about your confusion here, but man is not blinding himself, Satan is blinding all unbelievers.
Satan did not take believers and make them unbelievers. They are all unbelievers who are naturally born till they are born again and believe.
People are not born as believers in Christ, they are born with carnal minds and because of that are unbelieving by their very nature. People do not chose evil and then Satan blinds them, they are naturally evil.
Ephesians 2 makes this very clear, the naturally born follow Satan and are by nature children of wrath.
The verse below here in 2 Corinthians 4, is Paul explaining why people do not believe. This occurs from their birth.
It is why the current age in which we find ourselves is described like this, as evil.
Galatians 1
New King James Version
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
2 Corinthians 4
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn [upon them].
Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Similar threads
