Church Bashing

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Lambano

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In all the churches I tried, they all taught freewill and eternal torment of unbelievers, which speak wrongly about God.

Are those who teach no freewill, but teach instead that God withholds the medicine the children need, and planned from before the beginning of time to torment these children forever for His own glory any better? And the children who did receive the medicine know they were born into privilege and look down upon the sick children in their torment and say, "they deserved it"?

I hope both speak wrongly of God. "So, you perceived that I was a harsh man?"
 
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marks

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You certainly have a right to express your opinions about how church warning and discipline should or should not take place.

Unfortunately, the Holy Spirit, through the Bible, does some general church-bashing throughout Revelation 2 and Revelation 3.
Actually, I'd say the Spirit speaks correctly in those letters, and doesn't condemn the righteous with the wicked.

I wouldn't compare men's overgeneralizations to the Spirit's messages to the churches, and to whomever will hear.

When God criticizes Israel, or the churches, or whomever He may criticize, He does so with accuracy. I don't see that kind of accuracy in the sloppy statements flung around forums. But that's just me, like you say!

Saying something like, "Western Christianity is gone to the dogs", or whatever, is to me a vanity. Empty of meaning being false on it's face. There is no such thing as "western Christianity", and if there were, I daresay no one with full faculties would declare them all in agreement. Characterizations like that don't serve any meaningful purpose other than to make the speaker feel better for being it's judge.

Christianity is not bad, not corrupt, whatever. Christians come in all sorts, and many who are not claim the title anyway. People are corrupt, not Christianity, and we should not judge all people based on our opinions of our perceptions of some people. It's overgeneralizing, and maybe we don't really know what we're talking about in all cases.

Much love!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Well, there is the hatefulness others have noticed. Do women ‘spit leaven out once they’ve swallowed it?’

What does that expression even mean?

You seem to have pre-determined that there is no way to resolve conflict with, dare I say it? These men?

I pray God’s spirit bring you peace.

Once again, if you think you have noticed hatefulness, all I can say is I do not feel hateful. I’m okay that you think it of me, it just wasn’t in my heart.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Are those who teach no freewill, but teach instead that God withholds the medicine the children need, and planned from before the beginning of time to torment these children forever for His own glory any better? And the children who did receive the medicine know they were born into privilege and look down upon the sick children in their torment and say, "they deserved it"?

I hope both speak wrongly of God. "So, you perceived that I was a harsh man?"

Im not sure what you’re saying.
No, I never have perceived you as a harsh man…
 

Lambano

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@stunnedbygrace, These are the systems faithful men have built over the centuries to summarize their understanding of what the Bible says. There's still socks sticking out of the suitcase.

I'll probably never understand you, but I love and respect you, sister. Always. You have a good heart. :)
 
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stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace, These are the systems faithful men have built over the centuries to summarize their understanding of what the Bible says. There's still socks sticking out of the suitcase.

I'll probably never understand you, but I love and respect you, sister. Always. You have a good heart. :)

Well, after reading your last post 5 times, it appeared one of those socks had you upset. I didn’t understand what you meant by medicine but you seemed to be upset by the leaven of eternal torment for unbelievers.
 

Lambano

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Well, after reading your last post 5 times, it appeared one of those socks had you upset.
I've been through the free-will vs. predestination battles for almost 20 years. I've seen the personalities who align with both positions. Some have good hearts. Others exhibit either the pride of having made a good decision or the arrogance of being born to privilege.

I bear the scars of a 12-year-old boy who was told he must believe or the Father will burn him forever in the flames. I bear the scars of a theologically educated middle-aged man who never could trust a God who burns His children and saw himself born condemned to the outer darkness with no hope and no good news because that applies to the privileged, not him.
 
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Lambano

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I didn’t understand what you meant by medicine but you seemed to be upset by the leaven of eternal torment for unbelievers.

The children are sick and cannot believe. The medicine is when God changes the heart of an unbeliever so that he can believe. But if not all believe, then the Father must be withholding medicine from the sick kids. Hey, if Jesus can do parables, I can too.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I've been through the free-will vs. predestination battles for almost 20 years. I've seen the personalities who align with both positions. Some have good hearts. Others exhibit either the pride of having made a good decision or the arrogance of being born to privilege.

I bear the scars of a 12-year-old boy who was told he must believe or the Father will burn him in the flames. I bear the scars of a theologically educated middle-aged man who saw himself born condemned to the outer darkness with no hope and no good news because that applies to the privileged, not him.

Well, I agree that the leaven of men is horrid. I get literally ill over Freewill and over Eternal Torment of Unbelievers. You think faithful men came up with them. I think men who said they could see when they couldn’t came up with them. And the outer darkness isn’t for unbelievers.
 

stunnedbygrace

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The children are sick and cannot believe. The medicine is when God changes the heart of an unbeliever so that he can believe. But if not all believe, then the Father must be withholding medicine from the sick kids. Hey, if Jesus can do parables, I can too.

Ah, okay. You are missing something! You think no unbelievers will be welcomed in. That’s what men say.

Some men say, when did we ever see you and help you…
Other men say, when did we ever see you and not help you…

Helping one of Gods children simply by following the law written on their hearts gets a welcome.
 
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Lambano

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Well, I agree that the leaven of men is horrid. I get literally ill over Freewill and over Eternal Torment of Unbelievers. You think faithful men came up with them. I think men who said they could see when they couldn’t came up with them. And the outer darkness isn’t for unbelievers.
I understand why the systems are what they are. They were faithful men, if half-blind.

"Through me is the way to the city of woe,
Through me is the way to eternal pain,
Through me is the way to a lost people.
Justice moved my great Creator
Divine Power made me,
the Supreme Wisdom and the Primal Love.
Before me, nothing else was created
nothing, but the eternal and I last eternally.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here."

-Dante Inferno
 

marks

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Some men say, when did we ever see you and help you…
Other men say, when did we ever see you and not help you…

This has a context, and that context is not a universal application. There is only one period in history during which it can fit. But if you see that prophecy as a parable that will cause problems.

Much love!
 

stunnedbygrace

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This has a context, and that context is not a universal application. There is only one period in history during which it can fit. But if you see that prophecy as a parable that will cause problems.

Much love!

I don’t really know what you’re trying to say…
It definitely will be a problem, but men will be surprised that it won’t be a problem for who they thought it would be a problem for.
 

marks

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I don’t really know what you’re trying to say…
It definitely will be a problem, but men will be surprised that it won’t be a problem for who they thought it would be a problem for.
The problem is if you pluck something meant as one thing and use it for another thing.

These will be declared righteous based on their works, and this is a different time than now. Taking this for the current time puts you in the position of adding works to faith, but in fact, faith isn't named there.

Anyway, you think it's now, that it's a parable, there's not going to be much common ground there.

Much love!
 

marks

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I don’t really know what you’re trying to say…
It definitely will be a problem, but men will be surprised that it won’t be a problem for who they thought it would be a problem for.
That's why I hold to what the Bible itself says, instead of what some man says, who does not say the same as the Bible.

Much love!