Secure Eternal Salvation

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BreadOfLife

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Dude, you have no case. Abraham believed (pisteuo) the promise of a son. The demons believe (pisteuo) God is one. Both 'have faith'. That's what pisteuo means. It's the occurrence of faith. They just have faith in two entirely different things. Last time I checked, believing that God is one doesn't justify. Believing in the promise of a son does.
Congratulatiopns.
That's the most idiotic thing you've said yet.

Simply believing in the promise of a son doesn't justify.
Loving and Believing in and hacing hope in anf trusting in and surrendering your will to GOD is what justifies.
THAT is the faith that Abraham had.

Finally - the demons that James spoke of (Jamees 2:19) DON'T have faith - they have mere BELIEF.
Faith requires trust, sope, love, and surrender . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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See the contrast, BOL?
A person is saved by his mercy. Mercy stands in stark contrast to works - any and all works. We are saved by mercy, not works.
We are saved by God's GRACE - from which stems His iinfinity mercy and love.
This doiesn't negate the necessity of works that He provided for us to do (Eph. 2:10) in our faith.

If you would stop cherry-picking verses and start learning His Word in CONTEXT - you wouldn't be so confused . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Can’t quote you since your post was messed up

James can;t teach you because your problem is not licentiousness
Your problem is legalism.

And paul speaks against legalism.

James spoke against licentiousness (easy believism)
REALLY??
That's ALL you get out of the Epistle of James??

He teaches about confessing our sins and praying for one another. About what to do if a brother is sick. He teaches about the folly of favoritism and temptation and about living for today and not worrying about tomorrow.
YOU try to pigewonhole James into one camp amna Paul into another .

Your fello anti-Catholic @Ferris Bueller actually tried to convince me that James audience was nothing but a bunch of "pretend" Christians, whereas James calles them "Fellow believers" (James 3:1).

Looks like BOTH of you like to quote Scripture - but neitheer of you has a good understanding of it.
 

Eternally Grateful

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REALLY??
That's ALL you get out of the Epistle of James??

He teaches about confessing our sins and praying for one another. About what to do if a brother is sick. He teaches about the folly of favoritism and temptation and about living for today and not worrying about tomorrow.
YOU try to pigewonhole James into one camp amna Paul into another .

Your fello anti-Catholic @Ferris Bueller actually tried to convince me that James audience was nothing but a bunch of "pretend" Christians, whereas James calles them "Fellow believers" (James 3:1).

Looks like BOTH of you like to quote Scripture - but neitheer of you has a good understanding of it.
Wow man your all over the place.

We are talking about James and his passage on works. In Chapter 2 not the whole book.

James is written to an audience, There are saved people and there are unsaved people. As with EVERY church you go to. A leader speaks to his WHOLE AUDIENCE.

The particular conversation we are discussing in James 2 is speaking to those who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. Not those who have real faith. That particular conversation is to make believers. Not the whole book. Again you continue to point the conversation so it suits you and not listen to what is actually being said.

But you just explained it there. Your all about defending your church. Not the word. So I will move on.

I am not here to attack a church or denomination, I am here to discuss the word and in this point the gospel. Of which whoever gets that wrong will spend eternity separated from God

I don’t have understanding of scripture? I am not the one listening to man, I study to show myself approved, a workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Your not allowed doing that. You have to listen to men.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Your fello anti-Catholic @Ferris Bueller actually tried to convince me that James audience was nothing but a bunch of "pretend" Christians
Partially true - I am definitely anti-Catholic. I despise all cold dead ritualistic religions based on the performance of rituals and ceremonies. But, no, I never said James' audience was "nothing but a bunch of pretend Christians". He's speaking to the believing church as a whole - "My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ" James 2:1. But there may be false converts among them who think they are saved, but are not, as evidenced by the fact that they do not have works of righteousness to back up their claim of faith in God.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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We are saved by God's GRACE - from which stems His iinfinity mercy and love.
This doiesn't negate the necessity of works
Mercy and grace negate the necessity of works in regard to being made righteous. If you can be made righteous by doing something righteous then Christ died for nothing. But as it is, Christ died so that God can forgive your sin and make you righteous that way. This is the truth that escapes the Catholic religion to this very day.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Loving and Believing in and hacing hope in anf trusting in and surrendering your will to GOD is what justifies.
THAT is the faith that Abraham had.
That is indeed the faith Abraham had. But the believing all by itself justified him in the eyes of God. Paul makes this abundantly clear in Romans 4. He did nothing in Genesis 15:6 to be reckoned as righteous except believe the promise of God concerning a son. Then he did all the other stuff as a direct cause and effect relationship between faith and works, his works validating the righteousness he had by faith before he did anything. This is all very clearly spelled out for us in Romans 4. But to this very day the Catholics can't see it. Their wicked priesthood perpetuates their works gospel century after century, probably out of sheer pride of not being able to admit they're wrong.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Setting aside the fact that your statement makes absolutely ZERO sense - I was merely ponting out your complete ignorance of Catholic teaching.

I could teach a class on how little you know . . .
Nope, not gonna let you do it.
You've been roasting the Protestants for their divisions, only for you to now say you don't have to have the same theology as the official Catholic church has. You're a hypocrite.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Wow man your all over the place.
We are talking about James and his passage on works. In Chapter 2 not the whole book.
James is written to an audience, There are saved people and there are unsaved people. As with EVERY church you go to. A leader speaks to his WHOLE AUDIENCE.
This is EXACTLY what I've been telling your fellow anti-Cathollic, @Ferris Bueller who has been claiming that James was writing to "pretend" Christians..
So, tell HIM these things - not me . . .
The particular conversation we are discussing in James 2 is speaking to those who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. Not those who have real faith. That particular conversation is to make believers. Not the whole book. Again you continue to point the conversation so it suits you and not listen to what is actually being said.

But you just explained it there. Your all about defending your church. Not the word. So I will move on.

I am not here to attack a church or denomination, I am here to discuss the word and in this point the gospel. Of which whoever gets that wrong will spend eternity separated from God

I don’t have understanding of scripture? I am not the one listening to man, I study to show myself approved, a workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Your not allowed doing that. You have to listen to men.
And now you illustrate that you have absolutely NO understanding of what Christ's Church is.
Allow me to educate you from Scripture:
- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- Jesus said that HE is the Light of the World (John 8:12).
Jesus also said that His Church is the Light of the world (Matt. 5:14).
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they bound or loosed on earth would ALSO be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
- Jesus gave His Church Supreme earthly Authority, that WHATEVER His Church declared on earth will also be declared in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18).
- Jesus said about his Church: “Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME" (Luke 10:16).
- Christ's Church is ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).


The Church is NOT a bickering gaggle of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that are ALL based on the different interpretations of INDIVIDUAL MEN who ALL claim to have been "led" to this confusion by the Holy Spirit - and sprang up some 1500 years AFTER Christ ascended to the Father..

I've been listening to that ONE Church established by Jesus 2000 years ago.
YOU'VE been doing nothing BUT listening to men . . .
 

theefaith

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OSAS. Always has been, always will be Biblical.

when you die in Christ yes you will be saved!

matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness

2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"

3. The race of faith: the example of Paul

4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"

5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"

6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away

7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".

8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved

9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end

10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"

11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ

13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money

16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"

17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"

18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother

19. Some will abandon the faith

20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"

23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"

24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"

25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning

26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!
 

theefaith

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OSAS. Always has been, always will be Biblical.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

and

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
 

Ferris Bueller

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The Church is NOT a bickering gaggle of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that are ALL based on the different interpretations of INDIVIDUAL MEN who ALL claim to have been "led" to this confusion by the Holy Spirit - and sprang up some 1500 years AFTER Christ ascended to the Father..

I've been listening to that ONE Church established by Jesus 2000 years ago.
Just to be clear, which Catholic church is that, lol? ↓↓↓
 

Eternally Grateful

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This is EXACTLY what I've been telling your fellow anti-Cathollic, @Ferris Bueller who has been claiming that James was writing to "pretend" Christians..
So, tell HIM these things - not me . . .

My friend? I have him on ignore. he is NOT my friend
And now you illustrate that you have absolutely NO understanding of what Christ's Church is.
Allow me to educate you from Scripture:
- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- Jesus said that HE is the Light of the World (John 8:12).
Jesus also said that His Church is the Light of the world (Matt. 5:14).
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they bound or loosed on earth would ALSO be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
- Jesus gave His Church Supreme earthly Authority, that WHATEVER His Church declared on earth will also be declared in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18).
- Jesus said about his Church: “Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME" (Luke 10:16).
- Christ's Church is ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).


The Church is NOT a bickering gaggle of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that are ALL based on the different interpretations of INDIVIDUAL MEN who ALL claim to have been "led" to this confusion by the Holy Spirit - and sprang up some 1500 years AFTER Christ ascended to the Father..

I've been listening to that ONE Church established by Jesus 2000 years ago.
YOU'VE been doing nothing BUT listening to men . . .

I am not sure what this is supposed to do to help you.

If the church does not preach the word of God, It is not the true church, no matter how old it is.

The jewish priesthood were Gods people for 2000 years. When Christ came, they had no knowledge of the true word. which is why they failed to recognize christ.

so your history is meaningless to me. I trust the word. Not a bunch of men who claim to be something.

Again, If you want to listen to them, feel free.. Eternity is far to long for me to place mine into a bunch of men just because they claim to be the true church.
 

BreadOfLife

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Just to be clear, which Catholic church is that, lol? ↓↓↓
Thank you once again for uillustrating your complete ignorance regarding the Catholic Church.

The groups you listed are NOT the Catholic Church - but dissident groups.
In other words - they are nothing more than Protestant sects
 

BreadOfLife

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My friend? I have him on ignore. he is NOT my friend

I am not sure what this is supposed to do to help you.

If the church does not preach the word of God, It is not the true church, no matter how old it is.

The jewish priesthood were Gods people for 2000 years. When Christ came, they had no knowledge of the true word. which is why they failed to recognize christ.

so your history is meaningless to me. I trust the word. Not a bunch of men who claim to be something.

Again, If you want to listen to them, feel free.. Eternity is far to long for me to place mine into a bunch of men just because they claim to be the true church.
I didn't call him your "friend".
I called him your "fellow anti-Catholic" - which is what he is.

And you do NOT trust in the word pof God. If you DID - you would know that he did NOT leave a Church without leadership.
Jesus had the following to say about it:
John 17:20-21
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through THEIR WORD, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

This is what Paul wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit regarding Church leadership, Sacred Tradition and the Wotrd of God:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

1 Thess. 5:12

We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I didn't call him your "friend".
I called him your "fellow anti-Catholic" - which is what he is.
And your still wrong. I am not against any church. But if you think everyone who disagrees with you is just anti catholic. You have lost all ability to have any conversation.
And you do NOT trust in the word pof God. If you DID - you would know that he did NOT leave a Church without leadership.
Jesus had the following to say about it:
John 17:20-21
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through THEIR WORD, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

This is what Paul wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit regarding Church leadership, Sacred Tradition and the Wotrd of God:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

1 Thess. 5:12

We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

Your right he did not leave the church.

You just assume your church is that church.

I don’t assume anything. I look to the word for truth.

Again, you listen to men.

And again, Eternity is to long for me to do that.. If you feel secure. Well thats on you.

But I do not know how you can have hope. Your salvation is not secure if you are saved.. In your view anyway
 

Ferris Bueller

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Thank you once again for uillustrating your complete ignorance regarding the Catholic Church.

The groups you listed are NOT the Catholic Church - but dissident groups.
In other words - they are nothing more than Protestant sects
You can't evade the obvious truth. Your Catholic church is divided up into denominations, too, lol.