Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ferris Bueller]

Perhaps you've forgotten what a person has faith in that makes it so that believing all by itself solicits the righteousness that comes from God. Maybe you don't know, and never have.

Well, @BreadOfLife ?
Have you forgotten?
Maybe you've never known how and why it is that it can only be by faith, all by itself, that a man is made righteous.

Even though you don't agree with that, you should at least be able to articulate why the Protestants believe it can only be by faith without work that a man is made righteous. Show us you even know and understand the argument you are resisting. Explain what it is that Protestants believe about faith in God that makes it so a person can only be made righteous by faith, without works. I have the feeling you don't even know the argument you are resisting.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

* First of all these believers were of the believing remnant of Israel: and that makes all the difference I believe. These will live, for they are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ: the gift of life has been promised to them; and God's gifts are 'without repentance', so it will be received. Yes, they will live, but they will not reign. That Heavenly Calling they so desire to partake of, like those of their countrymen in Hebrews 11, may now be beyond their grasp.

You call them believers but you say they never partook of the Holy Spirit. How does that work? How can a believer not have the Holy Spirit? How can a saved person not be a believer? One thing we do know, these are saved people that the author is addressing...

"we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. " Hebrews 6:9
​

So everything has to revolve around this central truth. These are saved people. All saved people have the Holy Spirit. All saved people are believers, not unbelievers. There's no such thing as a person turning back in unbelief and no longer believing in Jesus and still being saved.

 

[Curtis]

There is always some Scripture that concludes a matter of debate in the church:

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is eternally secure salvation, just not unconditionally: there must be obedience to the faith. (Rom 1:5)

If we are to be raised together in the likeness of His resurrection, then we must walk together in the manner of His steps by obedience.

The forerunner of our salvation set the example of obedience, even unto the death of the cross.

Salvation begins the race of everlasting life by grace through faith, and ends in resurrection of life with obedience to the faith by grace. Without obedience, faith is dead, and grace cannot save through dead faith.

Once we cease obeying the faith, then we turn from the faith: a race half-run is as a cake half-turned.

The grace of God is given to the believer for help in time of need to overcome temptation, not to be excused in sin: no person sins under grace, with grace, nor graciously.

The grace of God is neither conditional nor unconditional, it is necessary for use in salvation. (Titus 3:14)

We either use it, or lose it. We must grow in grace by obedience, or fall from grace by rebellion.

If we reject the help of grace to overcome sin, then we despise the Spirit of grace for the sake of sin.

Those rejecting grace by willful disobedience to the Word of God are not under grace, but under condemnation:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

God is not a respecter of persons, excusing the sins of one while judging the same sins of another.

The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.

Unconditional eternal security and obedience to the faith do not mix, no more than bitter water and sweet:

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.

Faith is the lump, obedience is the purge.

Agreed, and there’s this:

2Pe 3:15 Think of our Lord's patience as facilitating salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him.

2Pe 3:16 He speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, leading to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.

2Pe 3:18 Instead, continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Messiah. Glory belongs to him both now and on that eternal day! Amen.

We have a secure position, but not an UNCONDITIONALLY secure position, and thus can fall from it.

 

[Curtis]

Once saved, refraining from things like sexual sin is part of ongoing sanctification:

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

1Th 4:5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

1Th 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you.

1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Keep in mind that NOT doing something, can’t be called a work, so for the Christian it’s not about doing a work of the law, but about NOT doing a work of the flesh, aka lusts of the flesh, which is what carnal sins are called:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Thus OSAS is falsified. Believers are explicitly warned over and over, that if they live a sinful life as a Christian, they won’t make it to heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What are you talking about? Abraham is our example of faith. The father of those who have faith. And somehow you think I've been saying Abraham didn't have true faith? You need to start paying attention and stop being so focused on cramming your Catholic doctrine down everyone's throat. Start 'listening'! Abraham is the supreme example of faith in God and how a man is made righteous by faith without work. And you think I've been saying he didn't have true faith. What a joke. Pay attention!!!

You've wandered so far away from your original argument that you're trying to make it look like you're telling me what I've been straightening you out about, lol. Before too long you'll be telling me that 'justified' has two definitions!

Thank you for ththose at non-answers, filled with false indignation.

YOU are the one who keeps trying to equate "belief" with" faith".
The Biuble rejects your view and shows us that mere belief in God is worthless without FAITH - which requires love, hope, surrender and obedience in addition to that belief.

Abraham had FAITH - not just "belief".
As I keep reminding you - even the DEMONS believe (verb) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

"to the one who does not work" Romans 4:5

"credits righteousness apart from works" Romans 4:6​

This truth has escaped an entire denomination of Catholics for centuries. They can't see it to this very day. That's why there are Catholics and why there are protesters who had enough of the gross errors of the Catholic priesthood perpetuated century after century, blinding millions and millions of people throughout church history.

Read the ENTIRE chaptrer pf Romans 4 insteqad of cherry-pickinh partial verses and phrases.

Paul is talking about WORKS OF THE LAW.
He is NOT talking about the works that God has prepared for us in advcance (Eph. 2:1) - which are an essential element of true faith.

At this pont, you're just arguing in circles and in tootal confusion - because that's what cherry-picking leads to . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We have a secure position, but not an UNCONDITIONALLY secure position, and thus can fall from it.

Yes, but that condition is continued believing, not works, so that the reward is reckoned of grace, not debt (Romans 4:4). Works are simply the expression of ones continuing faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So did Abraham. He had the action of pisteuo, too. You have no case, buddy. Your argument that somehow the demons pisteuo is not really the action of believing something, but Abraham's pisteuo is, is completely stupid, frankly. The difference between Abraham's pisteuo and the demons pisteuo is WHAT they believed. I showed you this, but you seem so intent on blathering on about your own Catholic beliefs that you're not even taking the time to give me the courtesy of even understanding what I'm saying. I explained this to you!

Ummmmm, there are YOUR idiotic words - not mine:

The argument is, Abraham had both faith (pistis) and believing (pisteuo) - Romans 4:5. Pisteuo is simply the verb form of pistis. In Greek, when you have faith (that's a verb) you use the word 'pisteuo'.

I showed you that the demons ALSO have 'pisteuo' - but they don't have Faith.

As I stated before - YOUR failure lies in the fact that you are trying to impose 21st century English on 1st century Koined Greek.
That, coupled with your constanc cherry-;picking of verses and phrases will only bring you MORE confusion . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Read the ENTIRE chaptrer pf Romans 4 insteqad of cherry-pickinh partial verses and phrases.

I'm making you see the key words you keep blowing off - "does not work", "apart from works".
You say it is with works and includes works. Paul says in plain words that you are wrong. I reject your Catholic priest's spin on Romans 4 that makes it so the passage doesn't really mean what it plainly says.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't think it's the power of God he questioning. It think it's your willingness to be open to and honest with the truth that is in question here. But that should be no surprise. Catholics aren't allowed to believe anything except what they are told to believe.

THANK YOU for openly illustrating a completely idiotic and ignorant grasp of Catholic teaching.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm making you see the key words you keep blowing off - "does not work", "apart from works".
You say it is with works and includes works. Paul says your wrong in plain words. I reject your Catholic priest's spin on Romans 4 that makes it so the passage doesn't really mean what it plainly says.

And in your abject ignorance of the Old Testament you fail to undeerstand that works of the LAW were requirements - NOT faith.
The works that God prepared for us in advance (Eph. 2:10) ARE part of our faith.

Romans 4 is talking about works of the LAW of the Old covenant.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ummmmm, there are YOUR idiotic words - not mine:

Dude, you have no case. Abraham believed (pisteuo) the promise of a son. The demons believe (pisteuo) God is one. Both 'have faith'. That's what pisteuo means. It's the occurrence of faith. They just have faith in two entirely different things. Last time I checked, believing that God is one doesn't justify. Believing in the promise of a son does.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

THANK YOU for openly illustrating a completely idiotic and ignorant grasp of Catholic teaching.

Noooooo, don't you even try to say you're allowed to denominate the Catholic faith!!!! Not gonna let you do it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And in your abject ignorance of the Old Testament you fail to undeerstand that works of the LAW were requirements - NOT faith.
The works that God prepared for us in advance (Eph. 2:10) ARE part of our faith.

Romans 4 is talking about works of the LAW of the Old covenant.

In your ignorance of the New Testament you fail to understand that Paul is talking about any and all righteous work:

"5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birtha and renewal by the Holy Spirit. " Titus 3:5

"9He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus" 2 Timothy 1:9​

A person is saved because of God's mercy granted in that person's request to be forgiven the debt of sin they owe. You don't know that. That's why you are obeying a works gospel. You don't understand that we are made right with God because he forgives us, taking away our sin, not because we work our way out of sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

……

Can’t quote you since your post was messed up

James can;t teach you because your problem is not licentiousness

Your problem is legalism.

And paul speaks against legalism.

James spoke against licentiousness (easy believism)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the works that God has prepared for us in advcance (Eph. 2:1) - which are an essential element of true faith.

Works are, indeed, an essential element of true faith. But not to MAKE a person righteous, but as the obligatory and expected outcome of having been made righteous. A person performs works of righteousness not to become righteous, but BECAUSE they have received the righteousness that comes from God through their faith in God's forgiveness apart from their works.

"...because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much." Luke 7:47
​

You say because she loved much her many sins will be forgiven. But it's clear in the verse that the cause and effect relationship is she was forgiven, therefore, she loves. That's what the verse says. But you say the cause and effect relationship is she loved much (or whatever righteous work she did), therefore, she will be forgiven. That's a works gospel. In your religion, God owes you acceptance based on your performance of righteous obedient works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birtha and renewal by the Holy Spirit. " Titus 3:5

See the contrast, BOL?
A person is saved by his mercy. Mercy stands in stark contrast to works - any and all works. We are saved by mercy, not works.

 

[charity]

You call them believers but you say they never partook of the Holy Spirit. How does that work? How can a believer not have the Holy Spirit? How can a saved person not be a believer? One thing we do know, these are saved people that the author is addressing...

"we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. " Hebrews 6:9
​

So everything has to revolve around this central truth. These are saved people. All saved people have the Holy Spirit. All saved people are believers, not unbelievers. There's no such thing as a person turning back in unbelief and no longer believing in Jesus and still being saved.

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

These are Hebrew believers, are the believing remnant that had the potential to partake of the heavenly calling. There is nothing said about them failing to believe, but of turning back. It is not a matter of loss of salvation, but of loss of reward. Partaking of the heavenly calling is a reward. That I believe is what they could lose, for unfaithfulness.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

These are Hebrew believers, are the believing remnant that had the potential to partake of the heavenly calling. There is nothing said about them failing to believe, but of turning back. It is not a matter of loss of salvation, but of loss of reward. Partaking of the heavenly calling is a reward. That I believe is what they could lose, for unfaithfulness.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

No, the stakes are much higher than just losing out on reward:

23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful.
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,
27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. Hebrews 10:23-27​

 

[BreadOfLife]

Noooooo, don't you even try to say you're allowed to denominate the Catholic faith!!!! Not gonna let you do it.

Setting aside the fact that your statement makes absolutely ZERO sense - I was merely ponting out your complete ignorance of Catholic teaching.

I could teach a class on how little you know . . .