The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[Lambano]

Forgiveness is to pardon, to be remissioned.

Now if your in an abusive relationship with someone who physically abuses you, and harms you. Is it good to be in this situation!? No you may need to get help, and move away. Some people that don’t seem to have no where else to go may stay and are to afraid to leave…

You can forgive your abuser, but that doesn’t mean the trauma leaves you from the abuse you experienced.

My mother was beat by my father, he was would get drunk, and go out and party. My mother finally ended up getting out of the situation. Did she forgive him? Surely.

My mother has been used many times for money, and eventually she had to put her foot down because the family wouldn’t pay back, and sometimes she would lose out because of it. Does she forgive those who used her? Surely? She may say she won’t do it again but if someone is in need of help she will most likely give again.

My mother also would cause ruckus to though, lol. She isn’t a saint. She beat up someone outside the city apartments in Detroit who my father would cheat on with.

I may have to modify the definition of forgiveness in light of your example. Forgiveness means you let go of the anger. Restoring the relationship is “reconciliation”. Different process, though one that’s mentioned in the Bible, most notably 2 Corinthians 5:18-21. I should've remembered this one; it came up recently in Sunday School.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Nancy]

All saints are believers, not all believers are saints.

Yes, and some "believers" tremble.
James 2:19
"“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”"

 

[Nancy]

They would only be superior in the sense that God gave them more. But then that’s God being superior, not them. They didn’t achieve holiness. God took them into His own holiness.

"To whom much is given"...?
I suppose it would depend on how one uses what He gives.

 

[MatthewG]

I may have to modify the definition of forgiveness in light of your example. Forgiveness means you let go of the anger. Restoring the relationship is “reconciliation”. Different process, though one that’s mentioned in the Bible, most notably 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Thank you for expanding on your differing definition of forgiveness. It would be in a sense of letting go, ie; pardoning.

This is what John was baptizing for in the Jordan River. For the remission of sins.


Strong's Concordance
aphesis: dismissal, release, fig. pardon
Original Word: ἄφεσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aphesis
Phonetic Spelling: (af'-es-is)
Definition: dismissal, release, pardon
Usage: a sending away, a letting go, a release, pardon, complete forgiveness.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 859 áphesis (from 863 /aphíēmi, "send away, forgive" ) – properly, "something sent away"; i.e. remission ("forgiveness"), releasing someone from obligation or debt. See 863 (aphiēmi)

 

[MatthewG]

In Colossians 3 you can see where Paul talks about considering the members of our bodies dead, such as anger, wrath, slander, malice and putting on a heart of compassion, or that is paraphrase.

However you, and me and us all have to remember that it is a constant dying of ourselves to those notions.

This flesh (Darkness) is very much alive and active and to become dead to it is to let the spirit reign, which is a battle to the very end of our last breathe.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Forgiveness is to pardon, to be remissioned.

Now if your in an abusive relationship with someone who physically abuses you, and harms you. Is it good to be in this situation!? No you may need to get help, and move away. Some people that don’t seem to have no where else to go may stay and are to afraid to leave…

You can forgive your abuser, but that doesn’t mean the trauma leaves you from the abuse you experienced.

My mother was beat by my father, he was would get drunk, and go out and party. My mother finally ended up getting out of the situation. Did she forgive him? Surely.

My mother has been used many times for money, and eventually she had to put her foot down because the family wouldn’t pay back, and sometimes she would lose out because of it. Does she forgive those who used her? Surely? She may say she won’t do it again but if someone is in need of help she will most likely give again.

My mother also would cause ruckus to though, lol. She isn’t a saint. She beat up someone outside the city apartments in Detroit who my father would cheat on with.

Yes, well it does change some when you take it from a mans relationship with God TO a relationship between two humans. But forgiveness still means: to forgive. In your heart, you forgive and let go of remaining angers and grudges. I think…the leaven of men changes forgiveness to all this other rigamarole and muddies it. I can’t quite glean what the motive is in doing that, but if I think on it I can probably come up with it…ah yes, there it is - men do not believe that if you trust God, He can actually make you be righteous (which means: to act righteously, to do the right thing.) They don’t believe there is an actual and real righteousness that we can have by trusting that God will do it, that God really does bless those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness and that they will be filled. They don’t believe it. so they make up this very twisted theological structure. If you toss out the structure, the teaching of men, it makes such sense you can scarcely believe anyone ever felt the need to complicate it. It’s actually an attempt at an end run around BELIEVING what He said and ASKING for what you need and want and then quietly and peacefully waiting for what He promised.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ah, I have to bring up my friend again. He says, righteousness is a moving target. If anyone wants to give any guesses on that, I have to brush my teeth, do the pajama thing and then come back.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, well it does change when you take it from a mans relationship with God TO a relationship between two humans. But forgiveness still means: to forgive. In your heart, you forgive and let go of remaining angers and grudges. I think…the leaven of men changes forgiveness to all this other rigamarole and muddies it. I can’t quite glean what the motive is in doing that, but if I think on it I can probably come up with it…ah yes, there it is - men do not believe that if you trust God, He can actually make you be righteous (which means: to act righteously, to do the right thing.) They don’t believe there is an actual and real righteousness that we can have by trusting that God will do it, that God really does bless those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness and that they will be filled. They don’t believe it. so they make up this very twisted theological structure. If you toss out the structure, the teaching of men, it makes such sense you can scarcely believe anyone ever felt the need to complicate it. It’s actually an attempt at an end run around BELIEVING what He said and ASKING for what you need and want and then quietly and peacefully waiting for what He promised.

My teacher told me if you can get it in your head that you are unable to become righteous and realize that Jesus is the one who makes your righteousness because of what he has done you will be far ahead of those who believe that they can make themselves righteous before God, he struggled with it himself thinking he could become righteous yet constantly failed at doing so.

Therefore is it by God through Christ and the Holy Spirit and the spirit of Christ in us that performs anything good ? As God is the giver of all good things?

I’ve always told my mother that anything you see me doing as good is from God it is never myself, it is from the spirit.

Does this make sense to you?

My apologies on replying back so quickly and thank you for your dialogue.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Now wait. The relationship is still intact. Does that mean the obligations have been met and we’re “right” with each other?

Ah, yes, see there. This…ties into the moving target. Hang on.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My teacher told me if you can get it in your head that you are unable to become righteous and realize that Jesus is the one who makes your righteousness because of what he has done you will be far ahead of those who believe that they can make themselves righteous before God, he struggled with it himself thinking he could become righteous yet constantly failed at doing so.

Therefore is it by God through Christ and the Holy Spirit and the spirit of Christ in us that performs anything good ? As God is the giver of all good things?

I’ve always told my mother that anything you see me doing as good is from God it is never myself, it is from the spirit.

Does this make sense to you?

My apologies on replying back so quickly and thank you for your dialogue.

He is right that it is impossible for men. He is wrong if he leaves out that with God it is possible. He may bring this up later. Or he may have given up and accepted what men say. He may not have asked. I don’t know.

Men can sometimes do the right thing, and sometimes they do the wrong thing. Or the right thing with wrong motive or the wrong thing with a good motive. That is men.

But God can ACTUALLY make a man righteous and make him stop murdering in his heart, can free him from his passions and emotions that rule over him inside. But the man has to BELIEVE God when He says He blesses those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness, for they will be filled. (Filled with what, by the way?) He has to BELIEVE God when He says that it is what comes out of you that defiles you. He kind of…just mostly leaves any fussing over outward sins, is this a sin, is that a sin, is having a beer a sin, etc. He eventually says, really man? I’m worrying if drinking a beer or smoking a cigarette is sin when God says I’m a serial MURDERER with all my inner anger and rage at everyone?? I’m going to worry about what I put into my body when He says it’s what comes out of me that defiles me? I mean, he’s certainly not going to shoot anyone. He’s not going to TRY to sin outwardly, but he BELIEVES God when He says, if the inside is clean the outside will be as well, but the outside can look clean and the inside be filthy.

 

[MatthewG]

Can God makes fallen mankind’s sin perfect in the flesh?

If that was possible for him wouldn’t he have done it so already?

When it comes to people cussing, drinking, using cigarettes, and they have faith in Christ ?

Isn’t it the individuals freedom to do as they choose in their relationship with God and themselves?

Are there court of laws that say Christians must govern over another person?

Some church’s believe that, I personally do not believe that applies to any church to dominate over their congregation and if they are doing that, they all need to be confessing their coming shorts with one another and not just to God.

I don’t believe I’m good, though I strive to do good by the Holy Spirit within me. The Bible in Romans chapter three Paul states and says there is none good or righteous, so can God make mans flesh righteous?

What was the need in sending Jesus who was the perfect righteousness that no other human being could be?

Those are some of my thoughts and questions along side you, @stunnedbygrace .

Sure anything is possible with God, why wasn’t Paul able to overcome some the thorns in his side when He pleaded to the Lord three times to take it away? Why didn’t God take it away?

It was to let Paul know that Gods grace was sufficient enough for him, and that through Paul’s weakness the strength of God could be made perfect.

 

[Lambano]

My mother also would cause ruckus to though, lol. She isn’t a saint. She beat up someone outside the city apartments in Detroit who my father would cheat on with

Sounds like a tough lady. My wife would approve.:cool:

 

[MatthewG]

She is 60 years old now, @Lambano. She simmered down a whole lot. I have a brother and sister too. It was always just me and her growing up, unless Jeff or kristy or the grandchildren where brought over.

 

[Enoch111]

Can God makes fallen mankind’s sin perfect in the flesh?

Sin is the opposite of perfect, holy, righteous, and good. And "the flesh" is the sin nature or the source of sins. So the only thing that must be done when the saints are perfected and glorified is that the sin nature is eradicated by God Himself (1 John 3:1-3). In the meantime God requires that we live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So, before I fall dead asleep on my feet, the target my friend talks about.

So…to whoever is given much, more is required. That’s a moving target.

I can’t quite remember how my friend layed it out (odd, because I really, really listened since he was the only man I’d ever yet met who made a lick of sense to me in the Babel that Christianity has become, aside from some dead saints whose books I read), but I will use a parent/child relationship because God made everything to show His glory, even that relationship speaks of Him. It might be marred but you can still catch solid glimpses.

What must a baby do to make his parents pleased? Not a whole lot more than soiling his diaper and gurgling and smiling. The baby isn’t going to be punished for a single thing he does.

Does the target move for what will make the parents pleased? Yep. Potty training. Then good grades. Then house chores. The target to aim at and hit to make the parents pleased keeps moving farther away.

And this is the same with God. At first, He says trust me and you do and you receive a deposit of the Holy Spirit. you don’t trust wholeheartedly. You’re hit and miss all over the place. Worrying about money for the rent, even though He has told you not to worry about your temporal provision. Worrying if smoking a cigarette is sin, even though He said it isn’t what you put into your body that defiles you. Might not be beneficial to you for sure, but it doesn’t defile you. And God is pleased that you trusted Him to save you. You really aren’t trusting Him much or hearing and remembering, but you’re not ready to bear more. (I have many things to tell you but you’re not ready to bear them yet. It’s a verse)

But eventually, the target moves for what will please God. He says, you’re not listening to me. Don’t you remember I told you not to worry about your temporal provision, to seek Me first and all those other things I would take care of? If you won’t believe Me and learn the obedience of trust when I tell you about an earthly thing like money, how will I ever tell you about heavenly things? (It’s a verse.)

Anyway, read about Israel in the desert and tell me if we don’t do the exact same thing they did that displeased Him.

They started fine. He said, step out under that towering wall of water and trust Me. I will save you. And they did. And He did. They trusted Him to save them. We trusted Him to save us.

Then He said, collect enough manna for one day. They collected more. Secretly they thought, but what if He doesn’t send more tomorrow, let’s collect more than He said. After having trusted for saving, they didn’t continue in trust. Just like us.

Then it says, He let them become thirsty to see what they would do. He wanted to see, will they trust Me and ask for what they lack, or will they grumble and complain and say, He led us out here just to let us die of thirst, let’s return to what He freed us from. So you see the hunger and thirst for righteousness and He wants to see if we will we keep trusting and believing He will fill us or will we let a man lead us back into the bondage of unbelief that He will fill us.

I want to help you with more but it’s getting close to 2 a.m!
I have really enjoyed having a whole day to spend with you guys! Goodnight.

 

[MatthewG]

Sin is the opposite of perfect, holy, righteous, and good. And "the flesh" is the sin nature or the source of sins. So the only thing that must be done when the saints are perfected and glorified is that the sin nature is eradicated by God Himself (1 John 3:1-3). In the meantime God requires that we live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12).

Enoch,

To me that deals with living by the spirit more than your flesh.

Paul stated that with his flesh he serves the law of sin. With his mind he delights in Gods law.

Therefore it’s a heart matter yet no one can get rid of the flesh until they die. It’s better to accept the fact you will never stop sinning (being open and honest with God about your faults) and to strive to live by the spirit which there is no law against.

(For clarification I believe that the first fruits of the nation of Israel the 144,000 blameless virgins have been taken away already). Therefore leaving everyone else here as the after fruits. Which it’s good to strive to live in the spirit rather than the flesh.

Our flesh yours, and mine can be greedy, lustful, hateful, and no one can deny that they haven’t been or have not stolen or done something that would caused the to have blame, unlike the saints back in that time who needed to be perfect, blameless, and spotless whom were virgins.

The flesh does dark things, and it would be good for people to realize it’s Jesus that makes you right with God by faith that you may have peace with God and you have a good God who loves you and desires for you to come to him, when you do not show love towards him or towards others.

The spirit fruits cause what? You guys know where it’s found Galatians chapter 5.

 

[Enoch111]

It’s better to accept the fact you will never stop sinning...

Why are you obsessed with the flesh and sinning? You can stop sinning, but that does not mean that your sin nature is gone. It means that the Holy Spirit is in full control.

 

[MatthewG]

I’m not obsessed with it. It’s just the truth, my friend.

Your flesh sins, my flesh sin, her flesh sins.

Paul talks a lot about becoming dead to sin,

He also talks about his flesh serves the law of sin, but with his mind he delights in Gods law.

You personally can not stop sinning completely until you die. You will fail, from time to time, unless you believe your perfect in your flesh.

Anyone says they are perfect in their flesh and they have nothing wrong with them is a liar, if you say do not have sin you are a liar.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

That is what John explains.

 

[Lambano]

i will always be a calvinist believer, but here recently i have come to see even moreso that i am not saved as of yet.

Weird how you showed up in this discussion right when I was thinking of you. Maybe it's not a coincidence.

Bro, just wanted to let you know that I'm praying God will open your heart and let you know you are saved. Jesus really is your Savior, not just your judge. Please trust Him.

 

[Lambano]

So, before I fall dead asleep on my feet, the target my friend talks about.

So…to whoever is given much, more is required. That’s a moving target.

I can’t quite remember how my friend layed it out (odd, because I really, really listened since he was the only man I’d ever yet met who made a lick of sense to me in the Babel that Christianity has become, aside from some dead saints whose books I read), but I will use a parent/child relationship because God made everything to show His glory, even that relationship speaks of Him. It might be marred but you can still catch solid glimpses.

What must a baby do to make his parents pleased? Not a whole lot more than soiling his diaper and gurgling and smiling. The baby isn’t going to be punished for a single thing he does.

Does the target move for what will make the parents pleased? Yep. Potty training. Then good grades. Then house chores. The target to aim at and hit to make the parents pleased keeps moving farther away.

And this is the same with God. At first, He says trust me and you do and you receive a deposit of the Holy Spirit. you don’t trust wholeheartedly. You’re hit and miss all over the place. Worrying about money for the rent, even though He has told you not to worry about your temporal provision. Worrying if smoking a cigarette is sin, even though He said it isn’t what you put into your body that defiles you. Might not be beneficial to you for sure, but it doesn’t defile you. And God is pleased that you trusted Him to save you. You really aren’t trusting Him much or hearing and remembering, but you’re not ready to bear more. (I have many things to tell you but you’re not ready to bear them yet. It’s a verse)

But eventually, the target moves for what will please God. He says, you’re not listening to me. Don’t you remember I told you not to worry about your temporal provision, to seek Me first and all those other things I would take care of? If you won’t believe Me and learn the obedience of trust when I tell you about an earthly thing like money, how will I ever tell you about heavenly things? (It’s a verse.)

Anyway, read about Israel in the desert and tell me if we don’t do the exact same thing they did that displeased Him.

They started fine. He said, step out under that towering wall of water and trust Me. I will save you. And they did. And He did. They trusted Him to save them. We trusted Him to save us.

Then He said, collect enough manna for one day. They collected more. Secretly they thought, but what if He doesn’t send more tomorrow, let’s collect more than He said. After having trusted for saving, they didn’t continue in trust. Just like us.

Then it says, He let them become thirsty to see what they would do. He wanted to see, will they trust Me and ask for what they lack, or will they grumble and complain and say, He led us out here just to let us die of thirst, let’s return to what He freed us from. So you see the hunger and thirst for righteousness and He wants to see if we will we keep trusting and believing He will fill us or will we let a man lead us back into the bondage of unbelief that He will fill us.

I want to help you with more but it’s getting close to 2 a.m!
I have really enjoyed having a whole day to spend with you guys! Goodnight.

Just about makes sense. As you get older, you pick up more responsibilities.

You mentioned "trust more". This may be another one of my blind spots. Would that be also along the lines of taking more risks and stepping out in faith?