The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[stunnedbygrace]

Hey, who sez you have sin?

Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, but rather, was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Whatever real righteousness lapses you may have, they are not counted against you. But maybe they’ll keep you humble.

I myself sez I sin. Although…more recently, since He answered me, I am not aware of any as I always was previously…I haven’t murdered anyone for a while, I haven’t worried about money as I used to, I haven’t been impatient. I appear, to me, to not be having any lack of trust whatsoever, which wasn’t so for…fourteen years!

 

[marks]

Hmm…I guess I can see how you arrived at that with that translation.
My translation makes it easier for me to understand.

New Living Translation
And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.

I've looked at the NLT, and I agree, it can make a difficult passage easier to understand. But I find it's simplification of the translation ends up missing much of the nuance, so I always use it in conjunction with more literal translations.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

By the same token . . . reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God . . . but not really?

Much love!

I don’t know what you think reckon means but a man could reckon himself dead to sin all he wants but if he then sins, he certainly isn’t dead to it.

 

[Lambano]

I myself sez I sin. Although…more recently, since He answered me, I am not aware of any as I always was previously…I haven’t murdered anyone for a while, I haven’t worried about money as I used to, I haven’t been impatient. I appear, to me, to not be having any lack of trust whatsoever, which wasn’t so for…fourteen years!

Your conscience says you sin; God says He won’t count it against you. God wins that one.

On behalf of society, thank you for not murdering anybody recently. I’m happy that His work is showing in your life.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I've looked at the NLT, and I agree, it can make a difficult passage easier to understand. But I find it's simplification of the translation ends up missing much of the nuance, so I always use it in conjunction with more literal translations.

Much love!

Well, if your translations say your body is currently dead, I’d drop them, because if your body was currently dead you wouldn’t be typing. Or breathing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your conscience says you sin; God says He won’t count it against you. God wins that one.

On behalf of society, thank you for not murdering anybody recently. I’m happy that His work is showing in your life.

Well, for a while, my conscience has not said I was sinning, actually. But for 14 years it did. As far as God not counting it against me, define what that means. If it means He forgives me, I agree.

 

[marks]

Well, if your translations say your body is currently dead, I’d drop them, because if your body was currently dead you wouldn’t be typing. Or breathing.

You need to have a definition of death that agrees with the Bible. And you were dead in transgression and sin . . . this doesn't mean you are a corpse.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your conscience says you sin; God says He won’t count it against you. God wins that one.

On behalf of society, thank you for not murdering anybody recently. I’m happy that His work is showing in your life.

I really haven’t. It still amazes me. One day I murdered and the next day it just…stopped. I can’t quite get over it…

 

[Lambano]

Well, for a while, my conscience has not said I was sinning, actually. But for 14 years it did. As far as God not counting it against me, define what that means. If it means He forgives me, I agree.

I actually like “He forgives me” better than the Pauline forensic language of “imputation” or “reckoning”. It’s more like a relationship, more personal than a law-court, and it ties back to Jesus’s teachings.

 

[marks]

I don’t know what you think reckon means but a man could reckon himself dead to sin all he wants but if he then sins, he certainly isn’t dead to it.

Well, he's not reckoning himself dead.

It seems that you have perceptions of things that disagree with the straightforward wording of the Bible, but I don't think the answer is to say that when the Bible says the body is dead because of sin, to say, no it's not because I can see it moving.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, for a while, my conscience has not said I was sinning, actually. But for 14 years it did. As far as God not counting it against me, define what that means. If it means He forgives me, I agree.

What happens to you when you are baptized into Christ?

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

I really haven’t. It still amazes me. One day I murdered and the next day it just…stopped. I can’t quite get over it…

Uh, I haven’t been around here for very long. Is there something I should know about you?

 

[marks]

Gotta run, see you tomorrow!

Great discussion, y'all!

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You need to have a definition of death that agrees with the Bible. And you were dead in transgression and sin . . . this doesn't mean you are a corpse.

Much love!

I see it there as dead and devoid of Gods Spirit AND on my way to dying physically soon. Doubly dead as it stood then.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Uh, I haven’t been around here for very long. Is there something I should know about you?

lol.

whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If a Pharisee never physically murdered someone and I never physically murder anyone, how has my righteousness exceeded his?

 

[Lambano]

lol.

whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If a Pharisee never physically murdered someone and I never physically murder anyone, how has my righteousness exceeded his?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My definition of flesh is the flesh, sarx. The body, soma, the same things are said. This body born from Adam is irreparably damaged by sin. The person born was born dead in sin, no connection to God, the giver of life. Just another animal going about his business.

The spirit posts in love, but if the spirit does not overcome the fleshy tendencies remaining in the body, that angry post may show up. My job is to detect and delete, and better yet, to only post in love. Which is why I always give myself the reminder, as well as blessing for others,

Much love!

So, flesh as in my skin and bones? So my skin and bones are inherently sinful? My bones make me sin?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So, how does my righteousness exceed his if neither of us have ever bludgeoned or strangled anyone to death?

 

[Lambano]

So, how does my righteousness exceed his if neither of us have ever bludgeoned or strangled anyone to death?

You already mentioned having your unique sins forgiven, right?

 

[Lambano]

So, flesh as in my skin and bones? So my skin and bones are inherently sinful? My bones make me sin?

This one I want to tiptoe around. MarkS mentioned in another thread that he has been called a Gnostic by other members and I want to be sensitive to that. Paul uses the language of sarx, flesh, to describe the human desire to sin. This language was later used by the Gnostics and Docetics that are condemned in 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7. Also, “flesh” has a more positive connotation in the Hebrew scriptures. The NIV translators were so uncomfortable with a literal translation that they translated sarx as “the sinful nature”. I’ll let you decide if our desire to sin is linked to physical flesh.