Secure Eternal Salvation

[robert derrick]

If it was living breathing saving faith, it would produce works, Because faith produces works.

The lie of OSAS is that faith that saves is partial. It doesn't save from all sins, but does produce 'good works' for sinners to do.

There is no salvation except by the faith that obeys Him in all things, which begins with repenting of all sins.

There are no good works of God and sinful works of the devil. There is no doing good and evil in Christ.

The good works of sinners who believe they are saved is the filthy rags of their own righteousness: doing 'good' while living in sins.

Any sinner can be a good neighbor, but no sinner is a saint being saved in Christ.

The faith that produces 'good' works alongside works of darkness, is breathing fumes and blowing smoke in the face of the Lord.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: SECURE "ETERNAL" Salvation?
Absolutely, because It is God's ETERNAL Salvation,

not man's "temporary" salvation! ie:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

 

[OzSpen]

not from where im reading. Anyone who says OSAS isnt in the Bible, lacks discernment.

LS,

This is from the Bible and it refutes OSAS:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (Heb 6:4-6 ESV).​

Oz

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"Things HOPED FOR".
This shows us that faith is NOT just a "Thing" as you have repeatedly stated - but an ACTION.

'Pistis' is the noun form of faith. It's a conviction. A thing. 'Pisteuo' is the verb form of faith. That's called having faith. An occurrence. 'Pisteuo' can produce actions. Those actions are not the faith that produced them. They are the expression of the faith that produced them:

"...faith which worketh by love." Galatians 5:6​

Loving someone is not, by definition, faith. Love is an expression of faith that reveals that faith to be genuine and able to save a person. It is not the working of faith that MAKES a person righteous. Having faith in the blood of Christ does that all by itself without work. Abraham was declared righteous before he did the work of circumcision, and long before he put Isaac on the altar. His work was the sign of the righteousness THAT HE ALREADY HAD by faith:

"11And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." Romans 4:11
​

See it? "While he was still uncircumcised". He was righteous by faith BEFORE he had worked any expression of his faith. What he worked did not secure for him what he already had by faith apart from his work.

And that's Paul's whole point. Abraham shows us that a person is made righteous by their faith before and without the aid of the expression of that faith. What your faith does is not what makes you righteous. Your faith all by itself does that. Works of faith only show you to have that faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

LS,

This is from the Bible and it refutes OSAS:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (Heb 6:4-6 ESV).​

Oz

Somehow in OSAS thinking being a partaker of the Holy Spirit in vs. 4 does not actually mean having the Holy Spirit. If that's true, then being made a partaker of Christ in Hebrews 3:14 must not mean actually having Christ, I guess.

 

[charity]

Somehow in OSAS thinking being a partaker of the Holy Spirit in vs. 4 does not actually mean having the Holy Spirit. If that's true, then being made a partaker of Christ in Hebrews 3:14 must not mean actually having Christ, I guess.

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

Are you referring to @OzSpen's quotation of Hebrews 6:4-6 in Reply #943?
If so it is interesting to note the use of the word, 'partakers,' in Hebrews 6, and chapter 3, to which you also refer:-

'And this will we do, if God permit.
.. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
.... and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
...... and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
........ And have tasted the good word of God,
...... and the powers of the world to come,
.... If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
.. seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put Him to an open shame.'
(Heb 6:3-6)

'But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day;
lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.'
For we are made partakers of Christ,
if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;'
(Heb 3:13-14)

'Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,
consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Who was faithful to Him that appointed Him,
as also Moses was faithful in all his house.'
(Heb 3:1)

* Partaking of these things was contingent upon God's permission, and personal steadfastness on their part. We must never forget the address on the envelope of this book, for it is written to Hebrew believers, and the call they had received was to, 'the heavenly calling', and that is what they could lose. They believed in God, they also believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, so had life through His name: the danger was that they would put themselves back under law.

* Looking at chapter 6, and the reference above, it is no wonder the words, 'if God permit', is used in regard to their going on to maturity. For the enormity of what they could potentially move forward into and potentially lose, was mind boggling.

* The call to these Hebrew believers was to FAITHFULNESS, for they were wobbling, and in danger of going back into Judaism, and not forward into Christ. At the moment they were still babes, and it was necessary that they move on, but it must be, 'if God permit', for the fall would be so great for them if they did go back into Judaism. They would live, but they would not reign.

* The loss of salvation is not in view here, but so very much more. They had not yet partaken of the Holy Ghost, or of Christ, but of the Heavenly calling which their forebears listed in Hebrews had entered by faith. This required faithfulness on their part, Christ Himself being the example given them, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross.

These are just thoughts coming from observing the verses you have referenced.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[robert derrick]

'Pistis' is the noun form of faith. It's a conviction. A thing. 'Pisteuo' is the verb form of faith. That's called having faith. An occurrence. 'Pisteuo' can produce actions. Those actions are not the faith that produced them. They are the expression of the faith that produced them:

"...faith which worketh by love." Galatians 5:6​

Loving someone is not, by definition, faith. Love is an expression of faith that reveals that faith to be genuine and able to save a person. It is not the working of faith that MAKES a person righteous. Having faith in the blood of Christ does that all by itself without work. Abraham was declared righteous before he did the work of circumcision, and long before he put Isaac on the altar. His work was the sign of the righteousness THAT HE ALREADY HAD by faith:

"11And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." Romans 4:11
​

See it? "While he was still uncircumcised". He was righteous by faith BEFORE he had worked any expression of his faith. What he worked did not secure for him what he already had by faith apart from his work.

And that's Paul's whole point. Abraham shows us that a person is made righteous by their faith before and without the aid of the expression of that faith. What your faith does is not what makes you righteous. Your faith all by itself does that. Works of faith only show you to have that faith.

God knows you are obedient to Him, and you do so from the heart; however, you are teaching a doctrine between faith and obedience, that sets up an independence of the two as somehow being separate and different in themselves, which leads even further to an antagonism between the two pertaining to salvation of the soul.

The error is making a doctrinal difference between faith and obedience, rather than stating the obvious temporal difference between faith in the heart and obedience of the body.

Intellectually separating faith and obedience demonizes works of faith, which must not be considered in any way attached to salvation: the only things allowed to accompany salvation are things of faith only, not with works of repentance, no with works of faith at all.

And so the argument is framed wrong, which leads to destructive results for them that want to believe obeying Him is not necessary for eternal salvation: temporally there is plain difference between faith in the heart and obedience of the body, but doctrinally there is no such difference between faith and obedience itself.

In the kingdom of God and world to come, there is not even difference between faith and deed, where God speaks, and It is done.

That is the faith of Jesus His elect saints are born of: the faithful obedience to Christ in the heart, which is where the kingdom of God is now: in the obedient hearts of them that faithfully obey Him in all things.

Therefore, intellectually separating faith and obedience as independent of one another, overlooks and sets aside the obedient heart that is necessary to obey Him in all things bodily in this life, which is necessary to obtain eternal salvation.

 

[robert derrick]

'Pistis' is the noun form of faith. It's a conviction. A thing. 'Pisteuo' is the verb form of faith. That's called having faith. An occurrence. 'Pisteuo' can produce actions. Those actions are not the faith that produced them. They are the expression of the faith that produced them:

"...faith which worketh by love." Galatians 5:6​

Loving someone is not, by definition, faith. Love is an expression of faith that reveals that faith to be genuine and able to save a person. It is not the working of faith that MAKES a person righteous. Having faith in the blood of Christ does that all by itself without work. Abraham was declared righteous before he did the work of circumcision, and long before he put Isaac on the altar. His work was the sign of the righteousness THAT HE ALREADY HAD by faith:

"11And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." Romans 4:11
​

See it? "While he was still uncircumcised". He was righteous by faith BEFORE he had worked any expression of his faith. What he worked did not secure for him what he already had by faith apart from his work.

And that's Paul's whole point. Abraham shows us that a person is made righteous by their faith before and without the aid of the expression of that faith. What your faith does is not what makes you righteous. Your faith all by itself does that. Works of faith only show you to have that faith.

...faith which worketh by love." Galatians 5:6

Faith is as faith does. Faith without works is dead, being alone and in the heart only.

Lonely faith in the heart saves no one.

Loving someone is not, by definition, faith. Love is an expression of faith...

And yet unseen faith by definition is the evident working of it seen by all. Faith without seen works is dead, which begins with repenting from all works of darkness.

Faith alone in the heart is dead.

The first commandment to obey is to love God with all the heart. Obedience therefore begins in the heart, without which there is no faith.

Faith alone is dead, both in the heart, and especially the body.

Having faith in the blood of Christ does that all by itself without work.

Having faith alone all by itself at anytime anywhere is dead, and believing in the blood without obeying the commandment is whitewashing by faith alone, not washing white by obedience in the heart.

When we believe and obey from the heart, then faith is not dead in the heart, but is alive in the soul to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, not being alone without obedience in the heart.

When we obey the commandment to repent and believe the gospel, that is when one is born of obedient faith unto eternal salvation.

Them that want to believe the gospel for salvation by faith alone, never repent of all their sins, because their faith is not the obedient faith of Jesus, but their own dead faith that never pleases God.

See it? "While he was still uncircumcised". He was righteous by faith BEFORE he had worked any expression of his faith.

And then we go on to perfection of being justified by works, as Abraham was when he offered up Isaac.

If we are not justified, we are not counted righteous before God, and so not being saved by God.

What was it that God saw in Abraham to inpute righteousness to Him? That he believed God in the heart, that God would perform His promise of a seed.

Abraham did nothing, but only believed what God said, which is good, but is not faith made perfect by works: it is not yet proven to be obedient faith that saves always in this life and the world to come.

Without the work of perfect faith, which is obedient faith, then the promise of God in Isaac would have been made of none affect by Abraham's disobedience to the faith, making His faith alone and dead.

The faith that God had in Abraham is what was justified by Abraham, in offering up his only son.

When God's faith is in us, it is because He knows His obedience is in us: God saw the obedience of the heart, before Abraham struck with the knife. God no longer saw only believing in the heart, but then saw obeying in the heart.

God's obedient faith in us, comes with God having faith in us to do His will, so that He will not suffer us to be tempted above that which we are able to bear, because He will give us no commandment we are not able to do.

Faith alone in the heart, without obedience born in the heart, is dead faith of man, which God has no faith in at all, because it is man's own faith, not God's.

Righteousness is imputed by God seeing His faith in us, but justification is never obtained, until He sees His obedience in us.

The disconnect between faith and obedience, is the means by which faith alone 'saves' with imputed righteousness, but is never justified by obedience.

Eternal salvation is only obtained by them who have obtained justification by grace through obedience.

We are being saved by grace through faith, and we re justified by grace through obedience to the faith.

Paul spoke of the first, and James spoke of the last, so that it is the first and last faith of Jesus in the heart.

Only the elect saints obtain eternal salvation, by obeying Him first in the heart and last in the flesh unto the end.

 

[Truman]

March on my friend . march onwards in the glorious Lord . You are loved and prayed for my friend .
Just ponder on the great hope we have in CHRIST and how all the lambs are gonna one day gather round the glorious LORD .
Forever free from the pains and trials of this life and forever with the glorious LORD who has saved us . yeah . Ponder on that my friend .

No more death...no more mourning...no more crying...or pain. Hallelujah!

 

[farouk]

No more death...no more mourning...no more crying...or pain. Hallelujah!

"It is finished" (John 19.30).

 

[Truman]

"It is finished" (John 19.30).

When I see Him in the clouds, and I become like Him, I will sigh for the last time!
My carcass doesn't seem to like me very much...the feeling's mutual!

 

[farouk]

When I see Him in the clouds, and I become like Him, I will sigh for the last time!
My carcass doesn't seem to like me very much...the feeling's mutual!

@Truman

Reminds me of Galatians 5.17-18:

"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

 

[Truman]

@Truman

Reminds me of Galatians 5.17-18:

"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

Sweet surrender.

 

[farouk]

Sweet surrender.

@Truman Paul in Romans speaks of 'the obedience of faith'.

 

[Truman]

Is there any other?

 

[farouk]

Is there any other?

@Truman I take your point....

 

[MatthewG]

Romans 1:16

God desires for us to be secure in the Gospel of Christ by believing in the promises made such as resurrection from the dead, newness of life, communication with God by and through prayer, the giving of the Holy Spirit, to love God first and to love others.

Faith is known as pistis in the greek it’s the persuasiveness of God through the Son of God, that leads us to have faith and trust in him having Hope which leads to love. (1 Corinthians 13:13)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

intellectually separating faith and obedience as independent of one another, overlooks and sets aside the obedient heart that is necessary to obey Him in all things bodily in this life, which is necessary to obtain eternal salvation.

Faith is only separated from obedience insofar as faith all by itself is what MAKES you righteous. From that righteousness we then do works of righteousness. Those works then testifying on our behalf that we have the righteousness that comes from God through faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

it’s the persuasiveness of God through the Son of God

Or more specifically, it's the persuasiveness of God through the Holy Spirit. God testifies to mankind about the Son through the testimony of the Holy Spirit:

6 ...it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth.
9 ...this is the testimony that God has given about His Son.
10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar...
1 John 5:6-10​

The believer in God is the one who retains the testimony of the Holy Spirit in his heart when he hears it. That's believing. It's the holding fast of the word of the gospel in believing. The Bible exhorts us to let the message we heard in the beginning remain in us, and if it does we will remain in the Son and in the Father...

"...let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:24​

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nope. Its your warped understanding

James is clear.

What does it PROFIT a person if the CLAIM to have faith, yet have no works, CAN THAT FAITH SAVE THEM?

The answer is no. Why? Because it is not faith, it is dead, It is mere belief.

If it was living breathing saving faith, it would produce works, Because faith produces works.

James ISN'T describing what true faith DOES - he is describing what true faith IS.

You erroneously interpret that to mean that workjs are a result of faith - a byprodust, wherease James shows that works COMPLETE our faith as an essential element OF it.

lol. So James is talking to believers when he says the only CLAIMED to have faith. and then said their faith was dead.

How can someone be saved if they never had faith?

It is about earning. Your trying to earn your salvation in the flesh, instead of the spirit. Paul speaks of you in Gal 3. Are you so foolish having BEGUN in the spirit, are you now tryign to perfect (complete) it in the flesh.

Thats what you are telling me I d=need to do. I can't Because no work I ever do will cause God to forgive one sin.

God requires perfection. I failed to live up to that standard decades ago. Its to late to try to work to earn salvation. I already fell short.

In EVERY one of Paul's epistules - he chades and admonishes as much as he praises his congregations for their faith. That is the job of an evangelist.

The Epistles are NOT just "pep rallies ". They are lessons, advice, admiinishment - and warnings.
James's Epistle is NO different.