Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ferris Bueller]

saved from what?

Saved from the guilt of your sins, and the judgment your sin deserves.
The blood of Christ does that for you because that is the just payment for sin God requires.
You secure that payment of Christ's blood given to the Father on your behalf by believing in it.

Hard to come out from under the law though i guess

The blood of Christ releases you from the condemnation of the law and it's requirement for blood sacrifice.
And so the believer in Christ is no longer under the law that way.
But everyone who does not believe in the blood of Christ is still under the condemnation of the law.

 

[bbyrd009]

Saved from the guilt of your sins, and the judgment your sin deserves.
The blood of Christ does that for you because that is the just payment for sin God requires.
You secure that payment of Christ's blood given to the Father on your behalf by believing in it.

eat the red stew as long as you need to, ferris

The blood of Christ releases you from the condemnation of the law and it's requirement for blood sacrifice.
And so the believer in Christ is no longer under the law that way.
But everyone who does not believe in the blood of Christ is still under the condemnation of the law.

under the law most every sin requires blood, and "everyone who does not believe in the blood of Christ is still under the condemnation of the law?"
ok ferris, ill have to consider how to proceed from here i guess

hoping you'll come to see the..."deception" inherent in Jacob
but w/o mixing meat and milk tho, hmm

 

[robert derrick]

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.

With His incorruptible seed in His saints, who have the mind of Christ, who are made in His image after the new man, it is not robbery for the elect to be equal with the Son of God, in humbling themselves as He did, to be made in the likeness of His righteousness by obedience to Him in all things unto death, as he did with the Father.

Them and them only will God highly exalt in the resurrection of His likeness.

OSAS declares such equallness with Christ in obedience to God to be robbery of God's righteousness d true holiness.

Jesus did not die on the cross that man may become good sinners.

 

[robert derrick]

Obedience to God is not in part: Partial obedience is not loving God and keeping all His commandments with all the heart, mind, soul, and strength.

The double minded that do both good and evil must purify their hearts of all lust, and stir up their pure minds to cast down all thoughts for sin and vain imagination for righteousness of God and sin of the devil, to become overcomers of the world of sin, even as He overcame, and so purify themselves, even as He is pure:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?

I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Them unequally yoked together with the sins of unbelievers are not equally yoked with obedience to Christ.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the lust of the world to serve both the Lord and the devil, to partake both of the tree of life and of the sins of the world.

Only them that overcome all sin unto the end will be given to eat freely of the tree of life in the midst of the garden of God.

OSAS exhorts doing good in the midst of doing evil, which they call continued 'habits of sin'.

All sin is transgression of the law, and all unrighteousness is sin: all sin is of the devil. There are no good sins, and there are no good sinners in the kingdom of God.

 

[robert derrick]

OSAS teaches we are still crucifying the old man, which will only end in the resurrection.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

There is no new creature in Christ, while yet continuing in sins of the old man.

The elect saints are not 'still repenting' and 'still crucifying' the old man, ever sinning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth of having repented of dead works, and having crucified the flesh.

Good sinners are not living and walking in the Spirit, but are cast out with the bondwoman and her son, even as Ishmael, who refused being a child of promise, by disobedience to the faith of Abraham.

The good works of faith do not begin, until all sin is repented of. So long as sin continues in the body, then faith is only in the mind and is dead, being alone without works of righteousness of God.

There are no good works of faith alone, because there are no good works and works of the flesh in the kingdom of God.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Once repented of and crucified, only then is the old man dead, and the new man is alive and free to live in and walk after the Spirit blameless in Christ Jesus.

OSAS teaches the delusion of the double minded: living in the Spirit while yet walking after the flesh. The new man carrying around the old on the back, rather the old man crucified on the cross taken up by faith and obedience to Christ Jesus.

IN Rom 7, they teach Paul was confirming the wretchedness of double mindedness, as the pattern of life in Christ and walking after the Spirit, while yet in sins that have not past away.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul is not 'celebrating' grace for wretched double minded living in sin, while yet serving God in the mind. That is the faith alone that is dead.

Paul is acknowledging that stirring up the pure mind to serve the law of Christ only, is the only way to not serve the law of sin and death with the flesh: It becomes a place of choosing whom to serve, the Lord or the devil, the law of Christ through a pure mind, or the law of the devil through the carnal mind of the flesh.

It is either/or, not both:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Only when the double minded choose once for all the whole law of Christ to obey, then they purify their hearts and destroy the law of sin in the mind by the law of the Spirit of Life, and so overcome sin in the flesh.

The elect saints and overcomers of Christ have been made free for the law of sin in the mind, and the law of death with the body.

OSAS not only teaches the wretchedness of double minded living in sin with good works now added, but also rids the mind of any condemnation while yet walking after the flesh, as being made free to do so in 'celebration' of filthy grace.

Only them having been made free from the law of sin and death in the mind and the body, are the souls now having no condemnation, who walk freely after the Spirit, and not after the flesh at all.

And them of OSAS waiting to have the old man crucified for them, in a moment and twinkling of the eye, will be them left on earth to be appointed to wrath with the hypocrites, because they will be found naked, while supposing themselves to be wearing white with spotted flesh.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's what I've been saying!!!!
You need to start giving people the courtesy of actually reading and understanding their posts.

No, that's NOT what you've been saying.

YOU have repeatedly stated that justification has multiple definitions and that Paul and James were discussing those different definitions.

LEARN the difference between a definition of a word and a different aspect of a word.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here are the two definitions of the word that you are failing to see in Paul's and James' arguments:

jus·ti·fy
(jŭs′tə-fī′)
tr.v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
2. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

justify

#1 is James' argument. A man is justified (shown to be righteous) by what he does.
#2 is Paul's argument. A man is justified (made righteous) by believing in the blood of Christ, apart from what he does.

Two very different arguments about justification. Because Catholics do not understand these two definitions of justified they change Paul's definition of 'faith' to mean 'works of faith' in their misguided effort to reconcile James with Paul, and of course, to defend their works justification theology. Catholicism is the very works gospel Paul warned the church about. This is just another example of how the Catholic church ends up doing exactly what the Bible says not to do!

You can do good works until the cows com home - yet it does NOT prove that you are justified in the eyes of God. I know atheists who are some of the nicest and most generous people, yet they are NOT justified.

#1 and #2 are both aspects of the SAME thing - being right with God.
#1 is "justifying" or "justifies"
#2 is "justify"

They are ALL just different tenses of the SAME verb.

 

[BreadOfLife]

But not for making a person righteous.
He uses Abraham as our example of how we also are made righteous by doing NOTHING except believing God's promise.
And James explains to us how we show that we are righteous by what we do. And so a man is justified by, both, faith and works. Faith makes you righteous, all by itself. Your works show you to be righteous.

Catholics believe that a man is made righteous by what he does, not by believing the promise all by itself, as Abraham was made righteous. That's why Protestants had to put the Catholic church to the curb in protest. The Catholic priesthood completely corrupted justification by faith and turned it into the very works gospel Paul condemns.

WRONG.

Without love/charity - faith is as worthless as something stuck to the bottom of your shoe. I didn't say that - the Holy Spirit did when he spoke through Paul.
1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love/charity is something we DO - and it is an essential element of Faith, not just a byproduct of it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Love/charity is something we DO - and it is an essential element of Faith, not just a byproduct of it.

It is essential insofar as that's what faith does....it works. Even Luther said this, lol.
The argument is those works are not what makes you righteous.
Faith does that all by itself. Just as it did for Abraham, our example.
That's the single most important truth that Catholics do not know.
It's completely and utterly alien to the Catholic mindset. Even though it's plainly shown us in the pages of the Bible.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Without love/charity - faith is as worthless as something stuck to the bottom of your shoe.

Most Protestants understand this. Because now you're talking about James' argument about works, not Paul's.
The point is, even though real faith changes a person and produces works in them (or else real faith is not present in that person), those works in no way shape or form make a person righteous. The righteousness that comes from God, without works, comes entirely on the basis of one's faith, not their works. Just as it was for Abraham, our example.

Works are a necessary accompaniment to faith, but not because those works make you righteous. Faith without works does that all by itself. Works only show you to have been made righteous without works. This is the very truth that Catholics can not see. They are in a completely different paradigm of thought. An obviously erroneous one to us who have not been programmed by Catholic works justification theology and can see the plain words of the Bible. Catholics are so deeply entrenched in that paradigm of thought that they have trouble even understanding the Protestant argument, let alone agreeing with it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Most Protestants understand this. Because now you're talking about James' argument about works, not Paul's.
The point is, even though real faith changes a person and produces works in them (or else real faith is not present in that person), those works in no way shape or form make a person righteous. The righteousness that comes from God, without works, comes entirely on the basis of one's faith, not their works. Just as it was for Abraham, our example.

Works are a necessary accompaniment to faith, but not because those works make you righteous. Faith without works does that all by itself. Works only show you to have been made righteous without works. This is the very truth that Catholics can not see. They are in a completely different paradigm of thought. An obviously erroneous one to us who have not been programmed by Catholic works justification theology and can see the plain words of the Bible. Catholics are so deeply entrenched in that paradigm of thought that they have trouble even understanding the Protestant argument, let alone agreeing with it.

i dunno, ive met quite a few Catholics who prolly didnt fit that mold so good? Maybe not most, but seems to me like many Catholics go through the same progression of beliefs that Prots do?

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is essential insofar as that's what faith does....it works. Even Luther said this, lol.
The argument is those works are not what makes you righteous.
Faith does that all by itself. Just as it did for Abraham, our example.
That's the single most important truth that Catholics do not know.
It's completely and utterly alien to the Catholic mindset. Even though it's plainly shown us in the pages of the Bible.

And this is the crus of your folly - that you refuse to accept the Biblical reality that Faith has a few ingredients other than belief:

Love
Hope
Works
Obedience
Surrender

The faith that justified Abraham had ALL of those ingredients (James 2:21). Paul doesn't discount this in Rom. 4:1-3 - he AGREES with it. He simply states that Abraham wasn't justified by works ALONE.

Nobody is justified by belief alone and nobody is justified by works alone.
James and Paul explain that it is by BOTH faith AND works together - and YOU don't get it.

To YOU - faith is nothing more than simple belief - a fallacy that is squashed by the Bible (Matt. 25:31-46, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-26)._

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And this is the crus of your folly - that you refuse to accept the Biblical reality that Faith has a few ingredients other than belief:

Love
Hope
Works
Obedience
Surrender

Faith PRODUCES those things.
Just like Abraham's faith was the SIGN of the righteousness he had BEFORE he was circumcised. Romans 4:11

 

[BreadOfLife]

Most Protestants understand this. Because now you're talking about James' argument about works, not Paul's.
The point is, even though real faith changes a person and produces works in them (or else real faith is not present in that person), those works in no way shape or form make a person righteous. The righteousness that comes from God, without works, comes entirely on the basis of one's faith, not their works. Just as it was for Abraham, our example.

Works are a necessary accompaniment to faith, but not because those works make you righteous. Faith without works does that all by itself. Works only show you to have been made righteous without works. This is the very truth that Catholics can not see. They are in a completely different paradigm of thought. An obviously erroneous one to us who have not been programmed by Catholic works justification theology and can see the plain words of the Bible. Catholics are so deeply entrenched in that paradigm of thought that they have trouble even understanding the Protestant argument, let alone agreeing with it.

You make a statement like this - and you claim to know your Bible??

BOTH James (James 2:14-26) and Paul (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal, 5:6) makes the SAME argument:
That faith is WORTHLESS without love/charity/works.
Paul goes on further to explain the same thing about works alone being useless unless done in faith.

Works don't merely "accompany" or "follow" faith - they are a necessary ingredient OF faith.

Don't just read the Bible - try to understand what it is saying . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith PRODUCES those things.
Just like Abraham's faith was the SIGN of the righteousness he had BEFORE he was circumcised. Romans 4:11

Okay - define "Faith" in the Biblical sense.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The faith that justified Abraham had ALL of those ingredients (James 2:21).

There is no question about that. What you fail to understand is Abraham was made righteous BEFORE he had all the ingredients that you say made him righteous.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Okay - define "Faith" in the Biblical sense.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Okay - define "Faith" in the Biblical sense.

It's the conviction and proof that what you can't see really is true. Hebrews 11:1
It's a thing, not an action. But it will lead to action if you retain it.

In the practical Biblical sense, faith means you know the gospel is true, because God showed you it's true through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Faith, if received and not rejected, results in believing - trusting in the truth God has shown you. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. That righteousness then caused him to obey God - he got circumcised. His circumcision (his obedience) is not what credited righteousness to him. His faith BEFORE he was circumcised did that all by itself.

"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3). You're looking at his believing, and his circumcision, and everything else he did in obedience to God as his faith, and so you say all those things together are what made him righteous. But Paul says he was made righteous BEFORE he obeyed God in circumcision. Faith stands all by itself as that which made Abraham righteous. Catholics, say, no, it was his faith and his works of faith that made him righteous...because faith is defined as faith and works of faith. That's not what Paul says. It's very clear in Romans 4 that Abraham's believing all by itself made him righteous. Then he did works of obedience. His work being the sign of the righteousness he had before he did any work. Specifically, the work of circumcision. The putting off of the flesh is the SIGN of one's righteousness, not the procurer of it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

YOU have repeatedly stated that justification has multiple definitions and that Paul and James were discussing those different definitions.

I showed you the two different definitions, and the context of James and Paul's arguments that shows which definition each of them is using.
I don't think it very scholarly, or considerate of you to just blow it off. Why don't you take the time to prove these definitions don't exist and how they don't apply to the context of James and Paul's arguments? You can start here. ↓↓↓

Here are the two definitions of the word that you are failing to see in Paul's and James' arguments:

jus·ti·fy
(jŭs′tə-fī′)
tr.v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
2. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

justify

#1 is James' argument. A man is justified (shown to be righteous) by what he does.
#2 is Paul's argument. A man is justified (made righteous) by believing in the blood of Christ, apart from what he does.

Two very different arguments about justification. Because Catholics do not understand these two definitions of justified they change Paul's definition of 'faith' to mean 'works of faith' in their misguided effort to reconcile James with Paul, and of course, to defend their works justification theology. Catholicism is the very works gospel Paul warned the church about. This is just another example of how the Catholic church ends up doing exactly what the Bible says not to do!

That is correct. But as I'm telling you, 'justified' has more than one definition. It can mean 'show to be righteous'. And it can mean 'make one righteous'. And we know which definition is being used by context.

We know James is using the word 'justified' in regard to being shown to be righteous by faith by this:

"...I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​

And we know Paul is using the word 'justified' in regard to being made righteous by this:

"And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. " Romans 3:22​

And so James and Paul are not in contradiction, but rather are talking about two different meanings of justification. Thus the nature of James' argument that a man is justified by, both, faith and works. He is made righteous by faith. His works then show him to have that righteousness. Abraham was made righteous through his faith without works (Romans 4:6). Later, Abraham was shown to be righteous when he offered Isaac on the altar in obedience to God (James 2:21). No contradiction here.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen.

That's a good answer - for the noun.
Now, give me the Biblical definition for the verb . . .

It's the conviction and proof that what you can't see really is true. Hebrews 11:1
It's a thing, not an action. But it will lead to action if you retain it.

In the practical Biblical sense, faith means you know the gospel is true, because God showed you it's true through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Faith, if received and not rejected, results in believing - trusting in the truth God has shown you. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. That righteousness then caused him to obey God - he got circumcised. His circumcision (his obedience) is not what credited righteousness to him. His faith BEFORE he was circumcised did that all by itself.

"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3). You're looking at his believing, and his circumcision, and everything else he did in obedience to God as his faith, and so you say all those things together are what made him righteous. But Paul says he was made righteous BEFORE he obeyed God in circumcision. Faith stands all by itself as that which made Abraham righteous. Catholics, say, no, it was his faith and his works of faith that made him righteous...because faith is defined as faith and works of faith. That's not what Paul says. It's very clear in Romans 4 that Abraham's believing all by itself made him righteous. Then he did works of obedience. His work being the sign of the righteousness he had before he did any work. Specifically, the work of circumcision. The putting off of the flesh is the SIGN of one's righteousness, not the procurer of it.

Thanks for showing that you completely miss the entire point of faith.

Faith IS an action as well as a "thing". A respected scholarly Protestant source, The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25 defines "Epignosis" (Hebr.10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22) as:
1. Knowledge as recognizing the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

Epignosis is a full and relational knowledge of one who has experienced Christ.
It requires action - just as faith requires cooperation.

The Bible, in CONTEXT (there's that ugly word you hate) shoes us that TRUE FAITH requires:
- Love (1 Core. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6)

- Hope (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15, Heb. 11:1)

- Obedience (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21, Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23, Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22, John 14:15, 15:10, Matt. 7:21, James 1,:22, Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1)

Without those ingredients - all you have is "Belief" - and even the DEMONS have that (James 2:19) . . .