The Trinity

[GodsGrace]

Correct, and all the time He (God) is ONE.

So who was Jesus? He was THE ONE GOD, not one of three gods, made visible in the form of man.
.

I think part of the problem is calling Jesus SON.
And the other part is using that word I so dislike, BEGOTTEN.

 

[farouk]

I think part of the problem is calling Jesus SON.
And the other part is using that word I so dislike, BEGOTTEN.

@GodsGrace

Galatians 2.20 is a great verse:

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Re. Only begotten (John 3.16, etc.), it refers to the uniqueness of the relationship between the Father and the Son; sometimes rendered 'one and only'.

 

[Gregory]

ignore this post

 

[Gregory]

Hi Gregory,

Have you done word studies in the NT on these questions? Personally I think that may be the best source of an answer for you.

Much love!

I am confident in my studies, and my understanding of this important scripture. I was trying to find out if you know the answers to these questions.

 

[Cooper]

I think part of the problem is calling Jesus SON.
And the other part is using that word I so dislike, BEGOTTEN.

It is for His glory and our salvation that He did this. Jesus had to become one of us to take away our sins which are many, and to do that he came down from heaven, John 3:13 And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.”

Jesus is both man and God. If people tell you Jesus is just a man, tell them He is King of Kings and Lord of glory. "He is the King of glory. He is The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isa 9:6

Psalm 24 is prophetic and beginning at verse 7 we read, "Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. This is Jesus Christ, the ascended Savior, is seen here as the Head and Crown of the universe, the King of Glory. He it was who could ascend the hill of the Lord, meeting perfectly all requirements. He has entered there as the forerunner of all who trust Him and shortly is coming out again to be acknowledged King of Kings and Lord of Lords."

Also prophetic is Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1Co_2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

PRAISE GOD. HE CONQUERED SIN AND DEATH SO THAT EVEN THE WICKED SHALL BE SAVED IF THEY REPENT.
.

 

[Gregory]

I think part of the problem is calling Jesus SON.
And the other part is using that word I so dislike, BEGOTTEN.

OK, is Jesus not the SON of God?

Do you dislike BEGOTTEN because it is somehow related to a sexual event? As the scripture says, Adam begat Seth..... the only way that Adam begat Seth was with a sexual union with Eve. Seth was begotten by Adam by a sexual event with Eve. Is this why the word "begotten" is uncomfortable for you?

 

[Davy]

The 'begotten' idea applied to Jesus Christ is so... simple. It is only in relation to His being born through woman's womb. Afterall, even God being born in the flesh like us certainly is still a begotten type of idea.

 

[marks]

I am confident in my studies, and my understanding of this important scripture. I was trying to find out if you know the answers to these questions.

OK, thanks!

Much love!

 

[marks]

‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." (ESV)


1) who is the Amen, the faithful and true witness?
2) what do you think "the beginning of God's creation" means?
3) one of the definitions of "arche" is "the first", or "the beginning". How many other definitions do you know?

Foregoing your questions for the moment, what is your conclusion on this question of Jesus, is He God? Or no?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I wonder sometimes why someone can accept the Trinity - however they might be able to understand it -
and some deny it outright.

They say it's from reading the bible and not seeing it represented there...but it IS there.
So maybe it's a church teaching from some denomination?
That would be my bet....

Revelation from the Holy Spirit.

Much love!

 

[Gregory]

Foregoing your questions for the moment, what is your conclusion on this question of Jesus, is He God? Or no?

Much love!

He is God. God the Son.

 

[GodsGrace]

This, in my view, is where the error creeps in, when we say the ONE God is three persons.

I have a friend who is a triathlete. She is a runner, a swimmer, and a cyclist. Some Biblical people based on their definition of God would say she is three persons, but she is not, she is one athlete and like her, God is One supreme being. If we say God is three persons, people understandably think we believe in three Gods. That, is idol worshipping heresy and people who say that are sending out the wrong signals.
.

Cooper,
Yes, I'd have to agree that maybe the wording isn't the best.
But HOW to explain it?
I had to teach the Trinity to children, and I learned early on that no matter how it's explained, you
run into one heresy or another.

God is ONE BEING...
IN that being, are 3 somethings...
it can't be natures because God has only one nature.
How to call those 3 somethings?
They are distinct and have their own missions/work.

Some even understand the Holy Spirit as proceeding from the Father and the Son as LOVE.
The love between the Father and the Son.

I used to use a similar example as you've set forth:
Someone can be:
A Father
A Son
An Uncle
A brother
etc.

But he is still only one person.

Your explanation of the Trinity is a heresy called Modalism.
Although I agree with you that it's a good way of understanding the Trinity,,,
it's not really correct.

However, I think however we can personally understand it is fine, as long as it fits somehow.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am thinking about it, and have been for years, and still I am only seeing One God with three titles. Harry Web is Cliff Richard and we do not say he is two persons just because he is known by two names. We compound the error when we say God is three persons, rather than one omnipresent God in three environments at one and the same time. So guard your thought's everyone, your tongue, and what you write on the internet for God knows our innermost thoughts and He knows his own also John 10:14.
.

We're only human creatures of His.
What you state is OK I believe.
We are finite and it's the best we can do.

 

[GodsGrace]

To me this is a terribly poor argument, and also accounts for your lack of manners.


You only give a answer that deflect from the question. You could tell me the truth, that you believe in at least 2 true gods, and that you define one differently from the other, and use language, like, You can be divine but not God.

Theos. How many true Theos? Is this so very complicated? How Many Creator Gods? There is One. In the OT, His Name is given as YHWH, in the NT His Name is Iesous, which we translate Jesus. And to Him, EVERY knee will bow, and every tongue confess that He is LORD, and that salvation is found in none other.

You have a mental difficulty trying to logically analyze Who God is, is that such a surprise?



Not so fast, that only goes towards your rejection of what Triune God means. Here is another sort of a logical argument you may consider.

The Eternal Father eternally loves the Eternal Son. In this way, the truth of the Scripture is preserved, "I YHWH change not". If the Eternal God did not yet have a Son, His is not a Father, but when He comes to have a Son, then He comes to be a Father. Rather than an eternally Fatherly God, He would have become that. He would have changed.

John wrote, "God is love". If YHWH existed alone, whom did He love? He would have come to be loving when He came to be a Father. And why would He "become a Father" or "become loving", were He already full and complete in Himself? To become something "more" is to fill in a lack, and I cannot fathom God lacking anything.

Another side of this aspect that God does not change is our sonship in Christ, and how we understand how this question defines our relationship with God. Are we sharing in the Sonship of the Eternal Son? Or are we sharing with another created being? That goes deep fast.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace I guess in summary it can be said that the word itself is not in the Bible but what the word 'Trinity' refers to - God in Three Persons - is indeed very much in the Bible....

Right.
All 3 "Persons" are mentioned in both the O.T. and the N.T.
Sometimes in reading we pass right by it...but it's there and the early theologians saw it
and expounded on it.
They were not wrong!

 

[GodsGrace]

It is for His glory and our salvation that He did this. Jesus had to become one of us to take away our sins which are many, and to do that he came down from heaven, John 3:13 And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.”

Jesus is both man and God. If people tell you Jesus is just a man, tell them He is King of Kings and Lord of glory. "He is the King of glory. He is The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isa 9:6

Psalm 24 is prophetic and beginning at verse 7 we read, "Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. This is Jesus Christ, the ascended Savior, is seen here as the Head and Crown of the universe, the King of Glory. He it was who could ascend the hill of the Lord, meeting perfectly all requirements. He has entered there as the forerunner of all who trust Him and shortly is coming out again to be acknowledged King of Kings and Lord of Lords."

Also prophetic is Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1Co_2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

PRAISE GOD. HE CONQUERED SIN AND DEATH SO THAT EVEN THE WICKED SHALL BE SAVED IF THEY REPENT.
.

Good post...
What came to mind is Jesus being King.
He is:
A King
A Prophet
A Priest

A King because in the Davidic Covenant it's stated that a King will appear and be forever.

Christian view of Davidic covenant[edit]
Christian theologian John F. Walvoord maintains that the Davidic covenant deserves an important place in determining the purposes of God and that its exegesis confirms the doctrine of a future reign of Christ on earth.[20] While Jewish theologians have always held that Jesus did not fulfill the expectations of a Jewish messiah, Dispensational (historically-grammatically literal) biblical theologians are almost unanimous that Jesus will fully fulfill the Davidic covenant, the provisions of which Walvoord lists as:

1. David is to have a child, yet to be born, who shall succeed him and establish his kingdom.
2. A son (Solomon) shall build the temple instead of David.
3. The throne of his kingdom shall be established forever.
4. The throne will not be taken away from him (Solomon) even though his sins justify chastisement.
5. David's house, throne, and kingdom shall be established forever (2 Samuel 7:16).[20]

source: Covenant (biblical) - Wikipedia



Also Daniel 7:13-14

13“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

14“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

 

[farouk]

Right.
All 3 "Persons" are mentioned in both the O.T. and the N.T.
Sometimes in reading we pass right by it...but it's there and the early theologians saw it
and expounded on it.
They were not wrong!

@GodsGrace A glorious truth, indeed....

At Christmas, these truths are seemingly emphasized... :)

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, is Jesus not the SON of God?

Do you dislike BEGOTTEN because it is somehow related to a sexual event? As the scripture says, Adam begat Seth..... the only way that Adam begat Seth was with a sexual union with Eve. Seth was begotten by Adam by a sexual event with Eve. Is this why the word "begotten" is uncomfortable for you?

No!
The word BEGOTTEN is not a good word to use because, as some here have stated,
begotten means someone was "made" or "created" and this is not so.

Begotten means the unique son of God.
Jesus was begotten as a Son...
But the SON, as the 2nd Person of the Trinity, as the WORD of God, always existed.

Some take this to mean that the 2nd Person of the Trinity, or the WORD of God, was begotten.
(did not always exist).

 

[marks]

‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." (ESV)


1) who is the Amen, the faithful and true witness? Jesus
2) what do you think "the beginning of God's creation" means? The Foremost
3) one of the definitions of "arche" is "the first", or "the beginning". How many other definitions do you know?

The beginning, the first, the top, the primary, the preeminent, the original, main, chief, foremost, like that. It's not really "how many definitions", but the sense of this word's definitions.

How many definitions would be more like asking how many ways can you translate it according to context.

Matthew 19:4 KJV
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Romans 8:38 KJV
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Jude 1:6 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

The term 'only begotten' refers to the unique relationship between the Father and the Son; it does not mean that the Son is supposedly a created being.