Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
John said we can know we have eternal life. and by it, continue in faith.
Without knowing we have it. what hope do we have to even continue to have faith? I can find none.
Secure Eternal Salvation
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Without knowing we have it. what hope do we have to even continue to have faith? I can find none.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
They are.
That's why we should keep believing...
"14Therefore, since we have a great high priest...let us hold firmly to what we profess." Hebrews 4:14
"23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
Since our high priest is so great, and the promises so sure, let us hold fast to our profession of faith. "23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
We should indeed keep believing; this is what true, saving faith is like...
All the things you mention here are true for those who maintain the faith. If you quench the Spirit and turn your back on God and no longer believe or do the many things Paul mentions you will not inherit the Kingdom. Paul is telling the Saints in the Church if they do those things they will not inherit the Kingdom. This is not difficult to understand. Continued belief and faith is not a works.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
then none of those things are true.
Jesus did not say I would never die, Unless I quench the spirit or lose my faith.
The kingdom of God is hear. If we want to receive AL its blessings, there are things we must do.
But OSAS is not about living in the kingdom. It is about spending eternity with God.
we risk serious trouble if we try to mix sanctification as a means of eternal justification. Sadly far to many churches do this. and end up leading their people astray
@Ferris Bueller Hebrews 11 is so clear; it's "by faith...by faith...by faith". What those OT saints endured involved suffering and obedience, but the key was still "by faith'....
If it doesn't last (compare the Parable of the Sower...) it never was true, saving faith in any case...
@Eternally Grateful The Reformation was really all about distinguishing justification as Biblically defined, from sanctification. (The clergy seemed content to regard justification as supposedly a process in which they - somehow - had a role.)
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
We cannot lose our salvation!
Jesus said His sheep shall not perish. John 10:27-28 Father gave His sheep to Christ before they were called.
No one, no power, no angel, or demon can pluck us out of the Father’s hand. John 11:27-29
Jesus prayed to the Father that His sheep will be kept by the Father. John 17:11
Christians are kept by God’s power, not our own. 1 Peter 1:5
We are forgiven for ALL sins: past, present and future. Since God is outside of time, His forgiveness covers our spiritual selves. The physical realm does not bind us. God’s love is not conditional.
He is the Author and Finisher of OUR FAITH. (Heb. 12:2) The word finisher (Teleiotes), means: One who has raised faith to its perfection. We do not finish our faith by works, nor do we sustain it. Works are the fruit of our faith. God enables us to do works AFTER our conversion!
There is NOW no condemnation for those who are saved – no, not even in the future. Rom. 8:1 So, stop pointing your holy finger,
Nothing can separate us from the love of God: death or life, angels, demons, past or future nor any powers. (Romans 8:38-39)
If you confess with your mouth that “Jesus is Lord” you will be saved. (Rom. 10:9 -10)
Righteousness comes from God – not ourselves. (Phil. 3:9)
He that began a good work in you will complete it. (Phil. 1:6) That is a promise.
To be born again from above means that our inner nature has changed. Only God can change our inner nature, therefore we cannot void what He has ordained.
He saved us not because of works done. (Titus 3:5)
“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away … “2 Cor.5:17 -18
He will never leave or forsake us. (Heb. 13:5)
We have been sealed with the Holy Spirit and that is a promise (pledge), a guarantee. (Eph. 1:13-14)
We are sealed for our day of redemption. (Eph. 4:30
Salvation is a gift, since our faith is part of salvation, that means it is also a gift.
Eph. 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.
Great verses there, if we indeed have truly been born of God; I do love the verse in @Eternally Grateful 's avatar: 'He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ' (Philippians 1.6).
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
These are great and precious promises. All good reasons for us to keep believing as the Bible tells us to do.
The promises are sure, so let's hold fast to the hope of the gospel:
"23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
@Ferris Bueller I think it's fair also to say that those who don't continue with their profession of faith were never truly on the road in the first place...
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yes, because He in sovereign grace began it... :)
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
It IS a false accusation. It has been explained to you in detail several times. I don't know of any Christian group that teaches salvation by works (apart from grace). You keep repeating this LIE time and time again. It's stupid and insulting.
Agreed. Working to serve others is responding the grace that comes from God in the first place, but you refuse to understand that.
You keep repeating the same LIE.
These are not legalistic works:
Paul was never opposed to works of mercy, he opposed the legal works of the law as useless. Obviously, you don't know the difference.
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 – you repeated err in your understanding of what Paul means by “works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”
Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”
Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”
Rom. 11:6,11 – justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.
Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.
Acts 13:39 – Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.
Rom. 3:20,28 – in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, “works of the law” can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.
Rom. 4:3-4 – Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.
Gal. 3:17 – this “law” came 430 years after Abraham. So “works of law” here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not “good works.”
Gal. 3:13; 4:4-5 – in fact, the “works of the law” (not good works in God’s grace) is a curse from which Christ freed us.
Please stop repeating the same false accusation.
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
The person with whom I am debating is Jim McCarthy, author of The Gospel According to Rome. He quotes Dogmatic Theology for the Laity by Matthias Premm as follows,
Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy) ...
...
By isolating sentences (the classic and quintessential anti-Catholic methodology) which emphasize man’s cooperation and effort, it appears that McCarthy had hoped to leave a false impression that we believe we can get to heaven on our own power, pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps, without God’s enabling grace. But this is the heresy of Pelagianism, which both Catholic dogma and Premm (even in immediate context) clearly condemn.
This is, therefore, apparently deliberate misrepresentation on McCarthy’s part, and that is a serious sin — a violation of the Ten Commandments and even basic pagan and secular ethical precepts. Whatever McCarthy or other anti-Catholics think of our theology, their own Christian tradition (as well as Jesus Himself) condemn them for slander and lying, whether we are Christian “brothers” or not, in their thinking. As we indeed are their brothers in Christ, their sin is all the greater. McCarthy’s polemical anti-Catholic video has also been clearly shown by Catholic apologetics magazine This Rock to be slanderous and grossly inaccurate. Let us hope and pray that he will repent, for his sake, and for the sake of the thousands he is leading astray.
Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy) ...
...
By isolating sentences (the classic and quintessential anti-Catholic methodology) which emphasize man’s cooperation and effort, it appears that McCarthy had hoped to leave a false impression that we believe we can get to heaven on our own power, pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps, without God’s enabling grace. But this is the heresy of Pelagianism, which both Catholic dogma and Premm (even in immediate context) clearly condemn.
This is, therefore, apparently deliberate misrepresentation on McCarthy’s part, and that is a serious sin — a violation of the Ten Commandments and even basic pagan and secular ethical precepts. Whatever McCarthy or other anti-Catholics think of our theology, their own Christian tradition (as well as Jesus Himself) condemn them for slander and lying, whether we are Christian “brothers” or not, in their thinking. As we indeed are their brothers in Christ, their sin is all the greater. McCarthy’s polemical anti-Catholic video has also been clearly shown by Catholic apologetics magazine This Rock to be slanderous and grossly inaccurate. Let us hope and pray that he will repent, for his sake, and for the sake of the thousands he is leading astray.
James 3:1 (RSV) Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
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op: SECURE Eternal Salvation? "NOT By works Of Righteousness!..."?
Sounds Plain and Clear to me, but, Hey, who am I (a worm) anyway?:
Tit 3:4 But after that The Kindness and LOVE Of God our Saviour Toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but According To HIS MERCY HE Saved us, by The Washing Of Regeneration, and Renewing Of The Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which HE Shed On us Abundantly Through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being JUSTIFIED By HIS GRACE, we should be made heirs according to the hope of ETERNAL life!
Thus, I agree With, and have faith In God, And HIS OPERATION! Amen?
Sounds Plain and Clear to me, but, Hey, who am I (a worm) anyway?:
Tit 3:4 But after that The Kindness and LOVE Of God our Saviour Toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but According To HIS MERCY HE Saved us, by The Washing Of Regeneration, and Renewing Of The Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which HE Shed On us Abundantly Through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being JUSTIFIED By HIS GRACE, we should be made heirs according to the hope of ETERNAL life!
Thus, I agree With, and have faith In God, And HIS OPERATION! Amen?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Its not a false allegation. It is a fact.
If your DOING SOMETHING to earn salvation. You are meriting salvation.
this difference between you and I is we both love God and want to be obedient.
I do it BECAUSE i am saved
you do it in order to make sure you WILL BE SAVED.
I know many christians who deny they teach works. Yet when you listen to them, it is all about works.
as for works apart from grace. its not both, its one or the other.
Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
You can try ti mix works and grace all you want. It will not help you. God will reject your works as filthy rags.
Again
Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
The works you all keep saying are required. are works of righteousness.. It is NOT by those works which we are saved. It gets no clearer than this
You keep insulting the grace of god by mixing grace and works, declaring his death was not enough, Its the cross plus.
Jesus said it is finished, He did not say I did my part. now you do yours.
I am sorry if my claiming what I see you teach offends you. Thats no my problem. But stop saying it is a lie. ITS NOT
one more timeAgreed. Working to serve others is responding the grace that comes from God in the first place, but you refuse to understand that.
You keep repeating the same LIE.
These are not legalistic works:
Paul was never opposed to works of mercy, he opposed the legal works of the law as useless. Obviously, you don't know the difference.
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 – you repeated err in your understanding of what Paul means by “works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”
Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”
Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”
Rom. 11:6,11 – justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.
Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.
Acts 13:39 – Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.
Rom. 3:20,28 – in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, “works of the law” can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.
Rom. 4:3-4 – Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.
Gal. 3:17 – this “law” came 430 years after Abraham. So “works of law” here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not “good works.”
Gal. 3:13; 4:4-5 – in fact, the “works of the law” (not good works in God’s grace) is a curse from which Christ freed us.
Please stop repeating the same false accusation.
We work for a WAGE. we work to earn a REWARD,
not of works...
Grace is freely given a GIFT is given inspire of the worthiness of the receiver. It is paid in full by the giver.
Nothing you posted here refutes that message.
Grace was shown in the OT. When the angel of death came through Jerusalem. The oldest child was spared NOT because of his worthyness or any works he did. But because the animal gave it life and its blood was on the doorpost.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What you're not getting is "good works done in grace with faith in Christ" do not justify either.
They justify a man in regard to showing him to be righteous (James 2:24), but they in no way justify a man in regard to making a man righteous (Romans 4:6).
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Maybe, maybe not.
The important thing is to keep believing as the Bible tells us to do. Because unbelievers won't inherit the kingdom of God. It's immaterial if the unbeliever never really believed, or stopped truly believing. The outcome is the same; they will not inherit the kingdom of God.
