Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ferris Bueller]

To be honest - I haven't read your posts - until you responded to mine.
I guess I assumed that since you were trying to refute what I was saying - that you were a proponent of OSAS.

I noticed that you couldn't see that I wasn't refuting any of your anti-OSAS stuff, lol. You just launched into that mode no matter what we were talking about.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's more a matter of disobedience - bot unbelief.

Willful disobedience IS unbelief.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I openly challenge you to show me - from the Catechism - that the Church teaches that we are "RE-saved" every Sunday because of our reception of the Eucharist.

Either you or theefaith posted it and I highlighted the errors in it. And I'm pretty sure that was one I brought out.

Maybe you don't understand that if you think you need to be justified (made righteous) over and over again that amounts to being saved over and over again. We Protestants understand perfectly that justification is a one time event that does not need to be repeated (and in fact can NOT be repeated). And it's a one time event that some of us Protestants understand you will lose, not by simply sinning, but by willfully sinning in unbelief. For willful disobedience is nothing more than unbelief—a cessation of trust and reliance on the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Whether the person willfully sinning realizes that or not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, of course you do, lol.
There is no one entity or organization in the world today that knows and teaches the complete truth.
That can only be found in scripture itself and discerned on an individual basis as you read the Bible for yourself and share with other individuals who do the same thing. It has been this way for a looooooong time. You can be sure it was that way when Catholics and Protestants thought you could put to death those who did not agree with their official doctrines.

The real church of Christ, composed of those who genuinely believe and trust in His blood, are in exile scattered among all the nations of the world. And the day will come when we lay aside these earthly tents we worship in now, as we drag them through the desert of this life, and we will enter into our eternal and permanent dwelling.

Not ONLY are your claims above in RED false - they are NOT taught in Scripture.

Jesus told His Church that it would be guided by the Holy Spirit to ALL TRUTH (John 16:12-15) and gave that ONE Church supreme earthly Authority - that WHATEVER it loosed or held bound on earth would be loosed and held bound in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23). He told the leaders of that ONE Church tat WHOEVER listens to or rejects the Church listens to or rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him (Luke 10:16).

And NOWHERE does the Bible teach that the Bible is our SOLE source of truth.
In fact the Bible itself tells us that the 2 fonts of truth for Christians is Scripture and Sacred Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15, ). If the Bible ALONE were our sole Authority - then the Bible itself would not exist because it does NOT contain a list of Books that belong in the Bible. That was decided by the Holy Spirit speaking through His Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I noticed that you couldn't see that I wasn't refuting any of your anti-OSAS stuff, lol. You just launched into that mode no matter what we were talking about.

I've been debating OSAS with others for his entire thread.

When you challenged my beliefs - I assumed you were in the OSAS camp.
I already acknowledged this - so why are you belaboring the point?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Willful disobedience IS unbelief.

NOT necessarily.

Even the demons believe in the truths about God and even tremble (James 2:19) - but they are NOT obedient.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

NOT necessarily.

Even the demons believe in the truths about God and even tremble (James 2:19) - but they are NOT obedient.

Believing means TRUSTING.
All references to believing in regard to salvation mean trusting in the blood of Christ for justification.

"God presented Him as the atoning sacrificei through faith in His blood" Romans 3:25​

Demons do not have 'faith in his blood'.
To willingly turn back to one's sins is to cease having faith in Jesus' blood for forgiveness.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

When you challenged my beliefs - I assumed you were in the OSAS camp.
I already acknowledged this - so why are you belaboring the point?

Because the points I challenged you on weren't OSAS points.
You instantly went into anti-OSAS when that's not even what I was challenging you about.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Either you or theefaith posted it and I highlighted the errors in it. And I'm pretty sure that was one I brought out.

Maybe you don't understand that if you think you need to be justified (made righteous) over and over again that amounts to being saved over and over again. We Protestants understand perfectly that justification is a one time event that does not need to be repeated (and in fact can NOT be repeated). And it's a one time event that some of us Protestants understand you will lose, not by simply sinning, but by willfully sinning in unbelief. For willful disobedience is nothing more than unbelief—a cessation of trust and reliance on the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Whether the person willfully sinning realizes that or not.

Technically-speaking - a person CAN become "unjustified" if they lose their security by their own doing(Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22). Salvation is NOT a gift that cannot be refused - or even returned.

As with EVERY gift - its fate is in the hands of the recipient.




As to your 2md false claim above in RED - read post #406 . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not ONLY are your claims above in RED false - they are NOT taught in Scripture.

The Bible does not teach that the Catholic church is the church of God/Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Technically-speaking - a person CAN become "unjustified" if they lose their security by their own doing(Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22).

I agree.

But I disagree with the Catholic church that you can get it back. Or that's it's necessary for a saved person to continually get it back after sinning. A person who continues in their believing continues in the one-time justification they received when they first believed, despite the failures along the way of growing up into the stature of Christ. The only sin that can cause a believing person to not continue in that one-time justification is the sin of unbelief. If they stop believing/trusting in the blood of Christ they lose any benefit of the one-time justification they received when they first believed. And, once God turns them over to that decision, they are not allowed to get it back.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I'm guessing it means served.
In the vein of Matthew 25:35-36, 1 Peter 4:10, Romans 12:1, and Galatians 6:10.

Actually Ferris, quite the opposite, take off the d and you have it, serve. Is that what you meant?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Actually Ferris, quite the opposite, take off the d and you have it, serve. Is that what you meant?

Hebrews 6:5 is talking about what they have done. Thus the 'd' on the word 'ministered'. But it also makes reference to the fact that they are continuing to do that. 'Faith and patience (the perseverance of faith)' are continuing attributes of the saved person. That is what accompanies salvation. Deadness is the attribute of the person who will be burned in the end.

Are you looking to try to catch me in something?

 

[robert derrick]

Well, of course you do, lol.
There is no one entity or organization in the world today that knows and teaches the complete truth.
That can only be found in scripture itself and discerned on an individual basis as you read the Bible for yourself and share with other individuals who do the same thing. It has been this way for a looooooong time. You can be sure it was that way when Catholics and Protestants thought you could put to death those who did not agree with their official doctrines.

The real church of Christ, composed of those who genuinely believe and trust in His blood, are in exile scattered among all the nations of the world. And the day will come when we lay aside these earthly tents we worship in now, as we drag them through the desert of this life, and we will enter into our eternal and permanent dwelling.

There is no one entity or organization in the world today that knows and teaches the complete truth.

There's no organization. True. But there is one entity.

Me.

I mean, the Holy Spirit.

 

[robert derrick]

It's both.
We love because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)
It's a cause and effect relationship.
But one that we can certainly cooperate with or subvert at our choosing. (2 Thessalonians 5:19)

We love because he first loved us.

Which means, we obey Him, because He first obeyed the Father to save us and show us the Father's love.

 

[robert derrick]

The point of 2 Corinthians 10:6 is that there are sins immature believers commit that they are unrepentant about because of a lack of awareness and their state of immaturity. As long as they are believing those sins are covered by the blood they believe and trust in. But there will come a day when their obedience is expected in those areas and they will be expected to walk in repentance concerning those sins. And if they don't they put their salvation in jeopardy because at that point they are willfully sinning, and willful sin is, ultimately, a decision to not trust in the blood of Christ any more. A.k.a. unbelief.

See, unlike Catholicism, Protestants aren't getting re-saved every Sunday through some required ceremony or liturgical process because of sin we have committed since the last time we got resaved, last Sunday. We understand from Hebrews 7 and 10 that Jesus is a one time Sacrifice that continually intercedes on behalf of the one who trusts in that Sacrifice. It's only when the believer decides to go back to willful sin in unbelief that he loses the completed and ongoing Ministry and Sacrifice of Jesus.

As long as they are believing those sins are covered by the blood they believe and trust in.

A minor point, but it is the love of God that covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8). The blood of Jesus only washes clean.

Which is why He loves us by convincing us of sin, that we may come clean with Him and be cleaned by Him through His blood.

The blood 'covering' sins, which is not found in Scripture, to me smacks of saved by faith alone, so that we have no sin, because God can see no sin 'under' His blood.

God sees all our sins, until they are washed clean of us by His blood.

Saved by faith alone believe in a whitewashing blood, where the sins are hidden against the wall by the whited paint, and remain there so long as the paint is there.

Such paint ends at the cross of faith that believes, or in the grave with shame and condemnation.

 

[robert derrick]

Well, of course you do, lol.
There is no one entity or organization in the world today that knows and teaches the complete truth.
That can only be found in scripture itself and discerned on an individual basis as you read the Bible for yourself and share with other individuals who do the same thing. It has been this way for a looooooong time. You can be sure it was that way when Catholics and Protestants thought you could put to death those who did not agree with their official doctrines.

The real church of Christ, composed of those who genuinely believe and trust in His blood, are in exile scattered among all the nations of the world. And the day will come when we lay aside these earthly tents we worship in now, as we drag them through the desert of this life, and we will enter into our eternal and permanent dwelling.

are in exile scattered among all the nations of the world.

Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The cross was a reboot. All the people of God were counted in unbelief at the cross, and now the scattered remnant of Israel and of Judah are the people of His circumcision: the scattered remnant throughout the nations.

 

[robert derrick]

And if someone was ever known as a brother or sister, and yet have plainly returned to open sin, then they were just dogs and pigs all along.

Since we can judge dogs and pigs by their works, why can't we judge Christians by their works?

We can judge the unsaved by their works of unrighteousness, but we cannot judge the saved by their works of righteousness?

 

[robert derrick]

And if someone was ever known as a brother or sister, and yet have plainly returned to open sin, then they were just dogs and pigs all along.

Judging people by their works is contrary to being saved by faith alone, since works have nothing to do with being saved; therefore how can they ever judge a known brother and sister as never-saved pigs and dogs that have plainly returned to open sin?

With OSAS we're either forever saved or never saved, and we can never know which is which, because we can never judge salvation by works.

 

[robert derrick]

And if someone was ever known as a brother or sister, and yet have plainly returned to open sin, then they were just dogs and pigs all along.

Since they teach that fellowship only is dependent on works, then they can never believe any known brother or sister to ever have been a dog and pig all along, but rather must remain a brother and sister, but only 'out of fellowship' with God.

In the OSAS kingdom, their god is still saving dogs and pigs, just not fellowshipping with them.

And yet, if we are not fellowshipping with Him in the light, then we are not being cleansed from sin in His blood. (1 John 1:5-7)

Once Saved by Faith Alone believes in being 'covered' by the blood of Jesus without being washed in His blood.

But only them washed in His blood will wear robes of white.

The problem children of OSAS have is, they want to believe in a salvation by faith alone, but then try to insert some sort of obedience to the faith in their 'churches'.

So that they are not a complete laughingstock.