Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ronald Nolette]

As a born again Christian, I know that if my living is not measuring up to the faith and truth of Jesus', to be a doer of the Word and not a hearer only, then it is my responsibility, and mine alone, to repent and obey, not just to believe and sear my conscience with a false hope of obtaining eternal salvation in the resurrection of life:

It seems you do not even know what happens to a person whenb they are born again. and once again you by saying one can lose their salvation deny that jesus blood forgiave you of all your sin, and that His blood wasn't enough to save you.

OSAS calls this 'pride in works to be saved', which is a wresting of Scripture to one's own destruction.

Just shows you are clueless about what the Bible teaches on OSAS. But then that is not surprising given all the mistruths you wrote about me.

 

[robert derrick]

OSAS. Always has been, always will be Biblical.

True. That really makes the enemy mad.

Sealed eternally by God's holy spirit. OSAS, Once Sealed Always Sealed, as someone in our bible study once said.

Who would ever argue against that? No, I'm not saved eternally! God calls whom he will to salvation but I, yes I, can do something to screw that up and overrule God's decision.

This is the standard response to the first Scripture posted. None, as I can see, have even tried to argue against it.

Which is the hallmark of a Scripture of truth that cannot be denied.

And their hearts, instead, have been cut to the quick by it, so that they show all what they really believe:

The arch-enemies of OSAS are them that call upon all who confess Jesus to be obedient to Jesus for His eternal salvation.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Once Sealed Always Sealed

The seal of the spirit is the circumcision of the heart, and even as them of the circumcision before became uncircumcised by transgression, so can by similar transgression the circumcision of today: the obediently believing Christians.

OSAS never met an enemy of the true faith by obedience they didn't like. But them that obey through faith to obtain like resurrection as Christ?

That's the height of arrogance, ego-centrism, and stupidity, anyway you look at it.

Such indignation! To think anyone could possibly mess up God's unconditional salvation plan for man by living like a devil!

Just believe! Grace will take care of the rest for you!

 

[robert derrick]

It seems you do not even know what happens to a person whenb they are born again. and once again you by saying one can lose their salvation deny that jesus blood forgiave you of all your sin, and that His blood wasn't enough to save you.

Just shows you are clueless about what the Bible teaches on OSAS. But then that is not surprising given all the mistruths you wrote about me.

I thought you were done with me?

Christians keep their word.

Mantra making is as useless as sounding brass. No matter how much is clanged.

No one has yet to even try to address the proof Scripture of this thread. Eternal salvation is for them that obey.

I don't like getter red alerts and hoping to find either a good correction or further confirmation, and ending up with just another version of the same old same old.

Kindly put up, or have courtesy to move on to others.

 

[robert derrick]

Here are a couple more proof texts to go along with the first.

Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation.

Paul was not speaking of unbelievers that neglect to believe.

Scripture is speaking to us, not to become a hearer only, because if them of old were broken off by transgression and disobedience, so shall we. (Rom 11)

We are warned against the highmindedness, of believing we cannot be broken off as they, because we've got unconditional 'grace and salvation'.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Once again, Scripture is not speaking of the world hating us, but if we as Christians begin to hate our brother in the Lord, we shall not obtain the eternal salvation promised with faith in Jesus, nor inherit eternal life in the resurrection.

And I would say by some of the reactions here, of them cut to the heart by these Scriptures, that there be some mighty hatred going on for us that preach obedience to the faith for eternal salvation.

But, since we are judged as unsaved and speaking from the pit of hell, then I guess that wouldn't count. That's just hating on their enemies.

Not so christ-like, but then who are we to judge the masters of the OSAS universe?

And since the first proof text has not been addressed, then I suppose neither will these.

 

[robert derrick]

I give unto them eternal life, and they shall not perish. Believe, and receive!

This is the deception of the matter.

Scripture never says to believe we receive eternal life, nor to believe we are saved.

The faith that saves is the faith that believes Jesus, and that faith obeys Him according to His Word.

It is called the faith of Jesus. That faith obeys God, no matter the circumstances nor feeling of infirmity in our flesh, which is what Jesus learned to do unto the cross, to become Author of eternal salvation.

For who? All them that learn to obey Him by faith in Him, even as He learned of the Father.

The eternal salvation of Jesus begins with believing Him and only ends in life by learning to obey Him with His faith.

His salvation is not 'granted' by believing we are granted it. It is obtained by believing and obeying Him unto the end, to then be granted to sit with Him in heaven. And we are granted grace to help in time of need to do so, by obediently overcoming the world, even as He did.

The faith of Jesus is the gift, and grace is the grant to obey the faith, for the gift of eternal life at the resurrection: the crown and prize waiting to be won at the end of our faithfully obedient course.

Believing Jesus is salvation, not believing in 'our' salvation. Because believing Him is unto obedience, all else is dead faith without works of faith, and hearing of His Word only.

OSAS 'belief' is therefore vain and dead, because it is based upon believe they have life and are saved, without any necessary works to show for it.

The things that accompany Jesus' salvation is repentance from dead works and obedience to the faith.

OSAS does not point to Jesus to believe and obey Him, but rather they point to another gospel to believe in being saved only.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let's take a look at one of these passages in its context: John 15:1-6 -- verse 6 would apply to those who profess Christ but are not really abiding "in Christ" and therefore unfruitful.

Yes - that's the ENTIRE point.
You can come to Christ and be born again - then CEASE to abide in Him and be lost by your own doing.
That's what the Scriptural warnings are ALL about.

Enduring in faith requires our cooperation with God's grace.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well a lot of those passages would apply to those who profess to be Christians, but are really not saved and born again.

Even if we ONLY take the two rock-solid passages that use the word. "Epignosis" (Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17) to describe the believer - these would sink the entire position of OSAS.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes it is.

Knowing the certainty of our salvation is the faith that leads us to live the right life, and you would take that from people.

And to offer in it's place, "You'd better keep performing!"

So yes, it's a serious contention.

And of those who attack the pure faith of God's children . . . well, I don't think it's going to be pretty.

Much love!

Knowing the certainty of our salvation is the faith that leads us to live the right life, and you would take that from people.

Now this is truly amazing stuff.

Who are these fragile 'people' being endangered by commandment to obey to the faith??

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name. Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ.

Talk about insecurity in unconditional security.

By preaching we must obey the faith for eternal salvation, we are overthrowing the faith of them that believe in unconditional salvation?

How? By believers becoming obedient to the faith, and performing unto the Lord our faith in Him??

And so, not only is obedience a bad word, but performance is even worse. That one must be from the pit of hell. God forbid we should actually keep performing by faith!!

Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths.

Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

And, furthermore, since the 'people' we are taking their security from, are unconditionally secure already, how then can said security be taken away??

Isn't the first principle cry of the kingdom of OSAS: Once Saved, once Sealed, always Saved, Sealed and Delivered!!!

Isn't unconditional salvation security unconditionally secured, once secured by faith in it's security?

Or do I have OSAS wrong? Can the faith of them that are saved by grace and unconditionally secured be overthrown?

And if so, does that affect their unconditionally secured salvation, that they once believed? After all, once believed always saved!

I'm thinking the OSAS membership club has been threatened by calls to obey the faith, and so they have less security in numbers. I'm thinking OSAS kingdom halls are dwindling today amidst a revival backlash against anything-goes religion of unconditional security.

How is anything-goes religion preached against in OSAS?? By warning them they may really be tares in wheat's guise, due to anything-goes living?? But, then isn't that basing being wheat on living obediently to the faith?? I certainly trow so.

Can an unconditionally secured salvation really be endangered by lifting up salvation with obedience to the faith? Yes. At least the membership thereof.

The call to salvation for them that obey, is not the call to salvation by works. That is the twisted lie of them that call only to believe in a salvation and eternal life, because they believe it.

And they dare not look at their lives in the mirror, lest they too be found guilty of pride from pit of hell. And God help them, if they actually obey Scripture, and shun fellowship with them believing in their unconditional security with fornication.

I mean, that's the unconditional security that OSAS is founded upon. Without that, the whole house of cards falls apart.

I'm thinking the only tares in the garden of OSAS are obedient ones.

OSAS plays salvation with a stacked deck. At every hand, there is a Joker to save the day of sin.

Mystery Babylon the Great Joker of all ministerial harlots.

 

[marks]

Knowing the certainty of our salvation is the faith that leads us to live the right life, and you would take that from people.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Much love!

Talk about a lie in the making. Remove your foolish quote from being authored by me.

Your much love is as real as your false doctrine, which is no doubt produced by it:

Love not in word and in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

 

[marks]

Talk about a lie in the making. Remove your foolish quote from being authored by me.

Your much love is as real as your false doctrine, which is no doubt produced by it:

Love not in word and in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

And yet, I persist for one reason only.

Where the Bible identifies a certain "hope", that is, expected outcome based on what we believe, when the Bible identifies this as a cause for our self-purification, doesn't that at the Very Least catch your eye?

If not revolutionize your Christian walk?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And, furthermore, since the 'people' we are taking their security from, are unconditionally secure already, how then can said security be taken away??

Think about it.

Our walk is by faith, not by sight. What we believe. What we choose to do based on what we believe about God, and His Word to us.

If this hope causes us to purify ourselves, what should be expected to happen when "this hope" is denied?

So when you persist in telling someone, You can screw this up, you know, you're not really saved until you're dead, you know! That is, all these places where God says you can know? Well you can't! Isn't that your message?

Much love!

 

[Pythagorean12]

Oh, you are very wrong. I am truly saved.
I am truly saved because I am holding firmly to the word:

"...you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:2​

I'm not saved because I endured to the end. That's ridiculous, because the end hasn't come yet for me to know that. I am presently saved because I am presently believing.

I judge by what you say you believe, as Christians are to judge using righteous judgement. Thanks for your testimony.

 

[marks]

. . . And we KNOW that when we see him, we will be like him . . .

or, maybe you don't know. But that doesn't mean those who do know somehow actually don't.

His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. Unless of course He doesn't, in the case that you are not.

In which case, you may want to give some consideration towards what your uncertainty and doubt is speaking to you. And all the more so if you want to live a pure life.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

And yet, I persist for one reason only.

Where the Bible identifies a certain "hope", that is, expected outcome based on what we believe, when the Bible identifies this as a cause for our self-purification, doesn't that at the Very Least catch your eye?

If not revolutionize your Christian walk?

Much love!

First of all, let me use my teaching to commend you. Obedience to the faith proves the faith, and I am glad you did so with your last post and honored my request, that I may call you brother Mark.

And further, I do appreciate the challenge you offer, which is intriguing, because I do not normally think in manner as cause and effect, but only the desired effect, based upon sure knowledge and practise of it.

"hope", that is, expected outcome based on what we believe,

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for.

Because we believe Jesus, we hope for His promises to His people.

That hope is indeed the cause for purifying ourselves, as you say.

And so, we can say faith without obedience is without self-purification, and so is dead, and the hope is vain, because it is not the hope of Jesus according to Scripture.

Adam and Eve hoped for becoming gods like God, but by another way than God: not obeying His commandment.

The evidence of things not seen.

And so, the evidence of things not seen, yet hoped for by faith, is obedience to the faith:

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

There is no hope with Jesus by a faith, that is not pure, which is with works of being pure, even as He is pure.

I know we agree on this, and we both know this is not teaching a faith by works without grace. That is an entirely different matter.

That is a faith producing works with the only hope of not being condemned by the law. That is not the faith of Jesus with hope of pleasing the Father in all things, that He may become the Author of salvation to all them that believe likewise, and so obey Him, even as He obeyed the Father.

We don't do the works of faith just to avoid transgression, but rather do them to please the Lord and know the power of His resurrection.

One is love from the heart, and the other is 'legally' loving the world:

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

And so, here we see godly sorrow for sin working repentance unto salvation: an eternal salvation that has great hope of reward, not to be ashamed of in the day of His appearing.

The essential difference between us is not the call for obedience to the faith, but the necessity of obedience for salvation.

In this difference, there are others:

1. Grace is for help in time of need to overcome temptation and not to sin. It is not a covering for sin without repentance.

2. Repentance is not a matter of mind only, but of working out our salvation to salvation.

Both faith and repentance are dead without works of faith and repentance:

Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And so, we see the hope of faith in Jesus, the heavenly vision, followed by works of repentance, which is to salvation.

And so, the only accommodation I can have, is that eternal salvation is eternally secure by faith with obedience to the faith, which is to salvation to be obtained at that day.

This is perfectly Scripural, and to my mind, cannot be honestly denied. I see the danger of preaching the first part by faith and leaving out the accompanying part obedience to the faith, leads to believing in a salvation without things accompanying: works meet for repentance, and obedience to the Word of God.

If you agree with necessary works of faith for eternal salvation to be obtained in that day, which begins with faith and confession of Jesus from the heart, then our only differences would be semantics. We would then both agree: no Christians will finish the race lawfully by disobedience to the faith they have in Jesus' name, and so will not obtain the prize of the high calling of God and win Christ: resurrection to life, and not to shame.

Faith without works is dead, without any salvation to hope for. And Works with faith is vain, without any salvation to obtain.

Only faith with works of faith is the justified faith of God to salvation:

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

And so, does this catch your eye:

The eternal salvation is for them that obey, not for them that believe and obey not.

Only them that believe and obey Him have salvation in this life to eternal salvation in that to come.

Because we believe Him, we are saved by grace. Because we believe and obey Him, we are saved unto the end to obtain the resurrection of life.

This is my reading of that first verse offered in the thread.

What is your's?

 

[marks]

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

And so, does this catch your eye:

The eternal salvation is for them that obey, not for them that believe and obey not.

I don't recall, did you answer my question previously?

That is, do you think that Jesus learned what it was like as a human to obey even when obedience causes suffering?

Or are you thinking of this as that Jesus at first did not know how to obey God, but learned to through the process of suffering, presumably for when He got it wrong?

Something else?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And so, we can say faith without obedience is without self-purification, and so is dead, and the hope is vain, because it is not the hope of Jesus according to Scripture.

This is getting away from what John wrote.

We know we will be like Him when we see Him, and he who has this hope purifies themself, even as Jesus is pure.

There is nothing you "do" here, other that having this hope, specifically, complete confidence that when you see Jesus, you will be like Him, seeing Him as He is.

That's it.

Your objection appears to be that perhaps you have a dead faith and therefore a false hope, with no subsequent purifying benefit, is that fair to say?

Would it be equally fair to say that if you have a true faith, then this is a true hope, and therefore you truly do purify yourself, even as He is pure?

Much love!

 

[marks]

We don't do the works of faith just to avoid transgression, but rather do them to please the Lord and know the power of His resurrection.

I think that we do the works because we've become people who do those things.

We breath air because we are mammals, not fish. We love because we are God's children, not Adam's. We don't love others so that God will reward us with everlasting life, we love others because we've been changed into people who love. If we've been changed, that is.

Putting your head underwater and taking a deep breath will not make you a fish. But if you are changed into a fish, that will be your new element.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

The security of eternal salvation is this:

Once we have it, we can never lose it nor forget it, if we obey it.

All else is vanity and pride: the highmindedness of unconditional security as a permanent branch that cannot be broken off.

Permanence is after the resurrection only. In the meantime, we need performance of the faith: bearing the fruit of the Spirit, and not walking after the flesh.

Performance in this life by the faith of Jesus, guarantees permanence in that to come by winning Christ.

During this life, by the Spirit through faith, our soul is made uncorrupted, as that of Adam before the transgression.

By obedience to the faith, by grace in the Spirit, our souls are made incorruptible, as that of the second Adam in the resurrection.

Believing in salvation is not believing in Jesus. Believing we are saved is not believing Jesus, which is the faith that saves.

If we believe Jesus to obey Him, His salvation is sure to come to resurrection of life.

If we believe in His name and obey not, His salvation will not come to us, though we say, Lord, Lord.

His eternal salvation is for all them that obey Him, and we cannot obey Him with pleasing, without believing Him according to His Word.

Believing in salvation without the works of salvation meet for repentance is dead, and doing works of salvation without believing Him is vain.

Paul preached against a salvation by works without faith, and James preached against a salvation by faith without works.

First comes faith from the heart, then comes obedience of the body, then comes baby in a resurrection carriage forever.

Faith with works is the wedding of salvation and justification to resurrection of life.

 

[marks]

His eternal salvation is for all them that obey Him,

How much obedience is required?

Much love!