dad
Well-Known Member
God does remember them. We also should remember that not that nation called Israel today does not believe in Jesus (God).
Explain Revelations So Even I Can Understand It
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dad
Well-Known Member
So who are the 'us' here? They are those who choose Jesus! In other words He chose to redeem those who would come to Him. That would be us. That does not mean He individually choose people to have to get saved or not. Who then is the 'all' that the Father gives to Jesus? The ones that chose to accept His free gift of eternal life through Christ. There are no others.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Yes, agree..."THEM".
What is called, "Israel", today, a Nation, (land) is not what God Called "ISRAEL", ie A PEOPLE, specifically Gods People.
EX 7:
[1] And the LORD said unto Moses...
[4] ... my people the children of Israel
Who is Israel?
Gen 32:
[28] And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
[32] Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.
* The children of Israel, are the direct descending line of Jacob, who is Israel.
* The children of Israel, IS Gods People.
From Adam to Joseph and Mary, there is a direct descending line, of people WHO had and maintained (endured) Belief In God, unto their natural death.
Gentiles do not Become "Israel".
In a more indepth study, the "converted" (forgiven, saved, born again), become sons of the Heavenly God (and sons of Abraham) according to an Order and Way God declared.
In brief, the Purpose is: "fullfillment of the Law"... both, Gods Law and mans law.
We are taught, Jesus "fulfilled" the Law...
"He" did...both, Gods Law and mans law.
WE also fulfill the Law...Gods Law and mans law....WHEN we become converted.
Fulfilling the Law(s)...establishes...for Jesus,
Lawful Authority to BE KING over Heaven & Earth.
Fulfilling the law(s)...established...for mans,
Lawful Authority to BE "citizens" "OF" Gods Kingdom in Heaven & on Earth.
Yes, SOME of "Israel" abandoned God, yet many continued believing IN God and His Word.....
And True, the majority of Israel (people), primarily all called Jews today, do not believe, JESUS, IS the Word of God, (ie their Christ Messiah.)
Their, "blindness" to the FACTS, was caused BY God, for the benefit of Gentiles to be, "grafted in".
Not to fret, God has a Plan to open the eyes of Israel, and they will be Saved.
Glory to God,
Taken
Davy
Well-Known Member
Of course your idea is baloney, because probably the MAJORITY of the children of Israel have believed on Jesus Christ today.
I guess you haven't ever heard of the lost ten tribes of Israel. Just because they are still scattered, and lost knowledge of their heritage as the larger part of Israel, that does not mean they are no longer part of God's Israel. And the fact that God in His Word declared the future gathering of both the house of Israel (ten tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) under Christ, that means our Heavenly Father has not forgotten them as a nation.
Furthermore, the return of Jews of the house of Judah back to the lands of promise in 1948 to create the nation state of Israel again fulfilled God's prophecy through Jeremiah, that He would bring a remnant of Judah back to the land and not cast them out again.
dad
Well-Known Member
Wow. You believe that? Prove it. When I check stats it is a tiny percentage in Israel that believe in their Messiah.
? Lost? Chapter and verse? Apparently God knows where they are since He chooses 12,000 from each tribe in the end.
Let's get this straight. You invoke lost tribes that somehow believe in Jesus? Then you want this to mean that the nation Israel today is a believing one!? Hilarious. But do clarify if you are trying to say something else here.
What chapter and verse? This should be amusing.
Taken
Well-Known Member
dad
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
The 12,000 (each) were chosen (a first fruits) BEFORE the Tribes scattered.
... (most all are TODAY calling themselves a JEW, regardless of what Tribe they belonged to.)
... You are correct, the Jews, primarily DO NOT Believe Jesus is their Christ Messiah...
...Yet a Few Jews have accepted Jesus is their Christ Messiah. They do not call themselves Christians. They call themselves;
Messianic Jews.
Glory to God,
Taken
dad
Well-Known Member
Chapter and verse?
Great so that has nothing much to do with the nation of Israel today.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Pythagorean12
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Keraz
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If people here actually read and understood the Prophetic Word, they would see that God has gathered Judah; the Jewish State of Israel, for Judgment and punishment. Over 20 prophesies say how they will be Judged and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27
The Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, all that area given to Abraham, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, and the faithful Christian peoples, from every tribe [of Israel], race, nation and language. The descendants of Jacob by faith will inherit the holy Land and will live there in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
It is we Christians who are there when Gog and his horde attacks, Ezekiel 38:10-12
John sees us there; in Revelation 7:9.
The Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, all that area given to Abraham, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, and the faithful Christian peoples, from every tribe [of Israel], race, nation and language. The descendants of Jacob by faith will inherit the holy Land and will live there in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
It is we Christians who are there when Gog and his horde attacks, Ezekiel 38:10-12
John sees us there; in Revelation 7:9.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Well, No and Yes.
The Scriptural "promised" land, "intended" for Gods people (homeland) encompasses, a portion of the land, called the Nation of Israel "today".
That same "portion" was controlled by England and acquesiced to the People, "Israel", (ie calling themselves Jews).
Many Jews, scattered around the world, Have journeyed to Israel (the Nation), to make that their home (State/Nation).
Not to over look, that land was and still is also home of many Gentiles/ some Christian/ many Islamic.
Also being neighbors with Islamic Nations, there is always a religious uneasiness stirring.
In the Future, Land border will be expanded to include All of the "promised land", and be the setting for Jesus' Earthy millennial kingdom.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
[5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Glory to God,
Taken
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It’s Biblcal. Literal fleshly Israel is not “the Israel of God”. (Galatians 6:16) “Spiritual Israel” are the disciples of Jesus Christ. Deny the Christ and you deny the one who sent him.
1John 2:23...
“Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.” (NASB)
To this day, they deny the Son, and so they do not have the Father.
Why is this such an inconvenient truth? This is merely restating what is written in God’s word.
‘The stone that the builders rejected’ is going to come down hard on those who made a vow to God and failed to keep it. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-6)
Matthew 21:42-45...
“Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘A stone which the builders rejected, This has become the chief cornerstone; This came about from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruit. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and on whomever it falls, it will crush him.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. (NASB)
The Jews lost their place in the kingdom of God and he replaced them with those who accepted Jesus as the chief cornerstone of the faith.
To keep his covenant, God changed what it meant to be a “Jew”.
To deny that is pure Biblical ignorance....
“For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.” (Romans 2:25-29 NASB)
Right throughout their whole history, the Jews have relied on their ancestry to carry them through, but God put up with their constant disobedience only until he produced their Messiah as he promised. God kept his covenant, but the Jews as a nation, never did. Their corrupt leadership always led them into disobedience.
What did John the Baptist say to them...?
“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance; and do not assume that you can say to yourselves, ‘ We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you that God is able, from these stones, to raise up children for Abraham. And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore, every tree that does not bear good fruit is being cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matthew 3:7-10 NASB)
How can anyone say that the Jews are still somehow “God’s nation”.....where on earth is the proof of that? When God forgave his people in times past, it was before the coming of his Christ. But after he made his appearance, Jesus said that he had come to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”....he did not have a good thing to say about the Jewish leadership, who hated him enough to want him silenced, permanently. This was their history...(Matthew 23:37)
When they had Jesus murdered, that was the last straw. God had fulfilled his promise to them but they never kept their promises to him. He cast them off because they proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they did not deserve to be called God’s people. He chose a new “people”...(Acts 15:14)...one where nationality did not count...all were welcome as long as they accepted Jesus as their Lord and they obeyed his teachings....all of them.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
You are on the right track.
My perspective is OT usually identified "groups" of people and their standing "with" or "without" God. Some who by "descendantship" (direct line from Abraham), "should have been "with" God but were not.
.....
In the NT, "we" "us" is typically speaking of "those" who pehaps NOT "with" God...
And "those" who have become "with" God,
Through Christ the Lord Jesus.
....
All IMO, is a term used, including "OT and NT" men who "ARE" in standing "with" God and "those" in standing "with" God, through Christ Jesus.
It can be confusing...
Primarily in the OT ( and some in the NT as, Jews were "transitioning" in to learning something NEW (the arrivial of their Messiah), and something NEW for Gentiles ( the Heavenly God AND the arrivial of Gods Christ Messiah)....
OT men (and some NT & forward) men ...
ARE "WITH" God, when they Believe, and God "WITH" them....a coming and going..
(Which is NOT receiving Salvation, then having Salvation removed)
What Jesus Offered...Salvation, The receiving, changes God "with" a man, and a man "with" God.........
TO:
Gods Spirit......"WITHIN" the man.
And the man..."WITHIN" the man.
And ^ that is a permanent conclusion, that Forever that man and God WILL be "WITH" on another, BY the Power of God.
Just saying.....the "ALL", is both OT men who endured believing until their picyical life ended....AND....all NT and forward men WHO, become Converted IN Christ.
Glory to God,
Taken
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If we are all predestined before birth for salvation or whatever you believe is the alternative, then what kind of God would do that?....condemn someone before they are even born?
Jesus words at Matthew 24:13....”But the one who has endured to the end will be saved” indicates that salvation needs effort on our part to endure the trials of this life with our faith in tact.....only then will we be saved.
Revelation 3:5....
“The one who conquers will thus be dressed in white garments, and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will acknowledge his name before my Father and before his angels.”
If Jesus can blot out our name from the book, then there is no predestination taught in the Bible.
By our free willed choices we live or die.
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Let's be clear. I'm referring to what is in the bible.
It's what God tells us.
There are many books. No one's name is blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Eternal Life.
Revelation 13:8, Revelation 21:27. Reading the whole chapter for context.
Ephesians 4:30
Is it possible for a person’s name to be erased from the Book of Life? | GotQuestions.org
Because God wrote those names before the foundation, creation, of the world.
Thinking he could later erase a name is denying God's Omniscience, and plan. And it is also denying what Jesus, who was God, promised. All that the father gives him will come to him. And no one will take us from his hand.
When God tells us he wrote the names of his Elect in his Book of Life before the foundation of the world, how do we say he didn't see there may be a reason to erase some later on? Because we can do something God didn't foresee when he first put our name down in his book.
Why do we believe in God's word and then doubt his word as written?
And since when are we arrogant enough to think we know more than God? And our choice can overcome his will and plan for all things?
Come on!
bbyrd009
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Of course there are devout Jews....but if they deny the Christ, that is all they are. What did Jesus say to them?
Matthew 15:7-9
“You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
Being ‘devout’ cuts no mustard with Jehovah if our worship is misdirected. Jesus said that their worship was “in vain”. If they still believe the same things...what’s changed?
Saul of Tarsus was a “devout Jew” too.....what was he doing to the Christians? And what did Jesus do to him? Not everyone get a tap on the shoulder like he did. Jesus knew that his zeal was sincere, but misdirected.
People of all nations can come to God no matter what their former worship was.....but they have to acknowledge the Son or they will not have the Father. The Jews come under that umbrella too....but as a nation they were not promised salvation unless they ‘bless the one who came in the name of Jehovah’. (Matthew 23:37-39) To this day, they are as defiant as ever on the question of Jesus’ messiahship. I don’t see that changing any time soon.
You are missing the point of WHY he took them back in the pre-Christian Era.....he had not yet fulfilled his promise to produce their Messiah.....but when he did, Jesus was sent only to Israel...and yet only a remnant of that nation accepted him. What did the remainder do when Jesus was being tried by the Romans? They followed the lead of their corrupt teachers.
Matthew 27:24-26....
“Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” 25 At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.” 26 Then he released Bar·abʹbas to them, but he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to be executed...”
Do you see there that the people cursed themselves with the blood of Jesus.....God did not curse them, they did it to themselves....and you want to defend them?
You make these sweeping statements about things you assume I have said....nowhere have I condemned anyone as unworthy to become a disciple of Christ.....but that is the criteria.....if you are not a disciple of Christ, you are not accepted as a worshipper of the true God....the God that Jesus himself worshipped. “In vain they worship” because they are teaching falsehoods. It’s that simple. Anyone teaching things that Christ never taught are also worshipping “in vain”.
I said no such thing. I said that the Jews as a nation asked for the punishment they received. They did not have God’s blessing or protection, because they (as a nation) murdered their own Messiah. Present day Jews still approve of their forefather’s actions. Jesus said that their house was “left desolate”....and it is still desolate, so this is not my judgment. “Israel” is a political nation and are blood spillers like all the rest of the political nations. (Isaiah 1:15)
If Jesus was not the Messiah, then where is their Temple, now missing for almost 2,000 years. Do you see any sign of them changing their hostile attitude towards Christ’s followers? It’s too late for that nation, but not too late for the “lost sheep” to come out of there. The door is not closed.....yet.
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