Explain Revelations So Even I Can Understand It

[Aunty Jane]

They turned a desert wasteland into a thriving nation.

How wonderful!

....But they do not have a Temple......and they still believe in the Torah, so where can they offer their prescribed sacrifices for their sins? Simple...they don't offer them because they have no where to do so.....so what does that mean? God only ever allowed their Temple to be destroyed when he abandoned them and punished them. If he wanted to reestablish them after a period of punishment, he allowed their Temple to be rebuilt. The Jews have had no temple since 70C.E. What are they waiting for, apart from their Messiah?

You think Satan suddenly loves them now? LoL. Come on, this is no argument that God has not regathered them. If anything, it is PROOF God regathered them, because the Devil hates their guts and always has.

I think satan loves anyone who disobeys God, whether they do so intentionally or not. He doesn't care what you do, as long as you don't worship the true God in the way that he approves. Sabotaging God's worship has been an easy job for him. All he has to do is introduce some false doctrines that offend the Creator and "bingo!"....they are off-side with God sometimes without even realizing it. (Matthew 7:21-23)

NAZI Germany was not some accident. Whether many believe they are still God's chosen people or not, the ENEMY most certainly does. Why else would he have specially targeted them for extinction, just as he will do so again through the Muslims.

Hitler's hatred of the Jews was personal and he infected his whole nation with that hatred....but in order to carry out the holocaust, he had to have henchmen who were as evil as himself.....there was apparently no shortage of them. He could not have done that on his own.

It might interest you to know that satan's hatred was also aimed at JW's and still is. We were with the Jews in those camps. Our brothers were beheaded and shot and tortured by the Nazi's too because we would not "heil Hitler" or fight in his army. But the Jews were exterminated like vermin...JW's were given the same options as the first Christians in the first century Roman arena.......renounce your faith and walk away free.....but our brothers refused, knowing full well what awaited them. All totalitarian regimes hate those whom they cannot control.

We have our own section in the Holocaust Museum. Our brothers in Russia are at this moment arrested and hauled off to prison as "extremists". They are tortured and beaten even though they pose no threat to anyone......yeah, satan hates those who worship the true God. (John 15:18-21)

Several Muslim leaders have called for the complete annihilation of the Jews. That is not a sign that the enemy regathered them, but that God did, and the enemy is just as filled with hatred towards them now as he has been since the days of the Assyrian campaign and the Babylonian captivity.

Hatred for the Jews has nothing to do with their worship....it has more to do with their politics, their racism and their alliances.

let me remind you that the Jews are the most oppressed people in history. Are you saying they deserved it?

Deserved it? Reading through their history, I'd say they asked for it....God thought so. In Bible times, when they were obedient to their God, he protected them....only when they disobeyed him did he abandon them to their enemies. If they had innocent blood on their hands in unsanctioned warfare, he turned his back on them, refusing to even listen to their prayers. (Isaiah 1:15) God has not sanctioned a war since before Jesus walked the earth. They had no homeland to defend. It was taken from them. I don't believe that God would ever give it back. They have never repented over their crimes. (Matthew 23:37) God only forgives those who repent. Individuals have and they have been welcomed....but the nation remains as stubborn as its always been.

Let me just answer that one in advance since I may need to get some sleep. I have seen fellow members here whose theology places the Jews entirely outside of God's love and God's protection now, and it strikes me as smelling of a Satanic spirit. I'm not saying this at you necessarily, but I don't think Christians who side AGAINST Israel truly know what spirit it is they are agreeing with.

No one is outside of God's love because of their nationality. They step outside of God's love by their thinking and behavior. If any of us behave in a way that violates the teachings of Jesus Christ, then they have no place with his Father. We are commanded to love our enemies....do you see Israel or even Christendom doing that? Or are they in there up to their necks in politically motivated bloodshed? More moved by their patriotism than their Christianity.

Doesn't it trouble you to be aligning yourself with the spirit of Satan rather than the Spirit of God on this issue?

No...it troubles me more when those who profess to be Christians take up weapons and slaughter their enemies as if Jesus never told them NOT to do it. (Matthew 5:43-45)

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think satan loves anyone who disobeys God, whether they do so intentionally or not. He doesn't care what you do, as long as you don't worship the true God in the way that he approves. Sabotaging God's worship has been an easy job for him. All he has to do is introduce some false doctrines that offend the Creator and "bingo!"....they are off-side with God sometimes without even realizing it. (Matthew 7:21-23)

It's a contradictory argument. Why would he be trying to exterminate them off the planet if he "loves" them? Doesn't make any sense.

It might interest you to know that satan's hatred was also aimed at JW's and still is.

I'm aware of it, and you are arguing that God loves Jehovahs Witnesses but hates the Jews. Again, this is a contradictory argument.

Hatred for the Jews has nothing to do with their worship....it has more to do with their politics, their racism and their alliances.

Ah, so we are taking the spiritual element out of it now? :) And the Muslims and the NAZIs are fully justified to exterminate them then? Again, I would ask what spirit your are of.

Deserved it? Reading through their history, I'd say they asked for it...

Oh my goodness. You said it. Jane, this truly borders on a Satanic spirit here, sister. I'm not saying it like I'm upset or anything, since we get along pretty well, but the spirit you are writing with here is of the Devil, not of God. Did they transgress in their history? Yes. But were they to blame for some transgression every time they suffered evils, or where they somehow hated by God? No. This sentiment you express runs a fairly close parallel, not with the Spirit of God, but with the spirit of Satan on this matter, and I think it's because of the evil spirit that governs your religion and all the doctrines of demons that it espouses. It is showing itself here.

Well, I'm guessing this line won't win me any points with you, but I can't tell you anything different. I'm discussing things in another thread with a Swaggart fan who's telling me I shouldn't say anything bad about them because I shouldn't "touch God's anointed." I don't feel any convictions about that. But siding with those who want to exterminate the Jews? Heavens. It's what they call a "tell." I think your religion is governed by a false spirit that would lead you to side with the Devil on this. Not much else to say.

No one is outside of God's love because of their nationality. They step outside of God's love by their thinking and behavior. If any of us behave in a way that violates the teachings of Jesus Christ, then they have no place with his Father.

Again, the tone here is off. Let me ask you this: I was reading somewhere that JWs believe only they are saved, and anyone who is not a JW is not. Is that correct? If so, then you would say the same thing you just said above about the vast majority of the people on this forum. I hate to put you on the spot, but I think it's relevant to ask. Does not virtually everyone else on this forum likewise have no place with God because they have rejected JW teaching?

No...it troubles me more when those who profess to be Christians take up weapons and slaughter their enemies as if Jesus never told them NOT to do it. (Matthew 5:43-45)

Bah. He was speaking to spiritual Israel. Again, by this same argument you could say that all of America, including every Christian in it, is going to Hell for defending their nation by military means. :)

I knew this would be an interesting conversation, Lol.

 

[Taken]

How about salvation, were we pre programmed for that?

Not sure about exactly what you mean by preprogrammed...but would say ...
* Created bodily; (with all the bodily parts, but not alive/functioning...)
* and then Made; (Alive with Gods Breath...)
Made Alive, with "something"..."LIFE"... of God "IN" a man;
* IMO, predisposing a man, (by design), THAT makes every man having a "possibility" TO ponder, wonder, consider, TO Believe in something Bigger.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[dad]

Not sure about exactly what you mean by preprogrammed...but would say ...
* Created bodily; (with all the bodily parts, but not alive/functioning...)
* and then Made; (Alive with Gods Breath...)
Made Alive, with "something"..."LIFE"... of God "IN" a man;
* IMO, predisposing a man, (by design), THAT makes every man having a "possibility" TO ponder, wonder, consider, TO Believe in something Bigger.

Glory to God,
Taken

When people focus on the word predestination, I am wary. It was predestined that God had a plan of salvation. He knew who would love Him. That does not mean we were born to be damned or saved.

 

[NewMusic]

When people focus on the word predestination, I am wary. It was predestined that God had a plan of salvation. He knew who would love Him. That does not mean we were born to be damned or saved.

I understand your position. You and I have had almost no conversation between us having just "met" yesterday, but it's likely we think the same way on this issue.

There was a Baptist named Arthur Pink (1886-1952) who was one of those few who studied the bible and had an extraordinary grasp of the content, before there were computer tools and software to help one study it. He used to believe in Dispensationalism and then rejected it and began writing against it around the early 1930's. He also happens to be the poster boy for Calvinism.

About 2 or 3 years ago I was reading one of his essays on election and in the essay he was making comparison/contrast remarks about Calvinism vs Arminianism. If I recall, there were 5 major points Arminianists believe and he was shooting them down one by one, but there were 2 points that he acknowledged were formidable. Near the end of the essay he told his readers that they needed to come to grasps with those 2 points that Arminiasts hold because he could find no argument against them. This was a significant and honest essay.

I remember enjoying the outcome. It goes along with what I have always (almost 40 years) said -- both positions are true.

I humorously say "It's above our pay grade". God said His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways. Seeming contradictory things can be and are true if God says so.

The brightest minds have searched and anguished over the issue (Predestination and Free will) and we can see plainly that they are both true at the same time. No problem as far as I'm concerned.

When a Calvinist attempts to engage me in the argument, I visibly laugh and tell him, "They are both true". And he then knows that I'm not going to play the game with him and usually smiles.

 

[Taken]

@Wrangler.....sorry HiH, its not about literal Israel....

Do not agree with this.
Israel is Gods People, as a whole, (Hebrews, Tribes, today, all identifying as Jews).

Jews, are both a "race", via blood-line...
And CAN, also Identify WITH their Historical "religion"...or having "abandoned" their "religion".

Their "historical" Religion...is:
Belief IN: Almighty Heavenly God...
and
Adherence TO: His Word.

Agree, "His Word", required certain traditions, such as "sacrifices" (ie Offerings FOR their SIN, also called SIN Offerings, also called Animal Sacrifices), a yearly event, that was to Only be performed IN the Temple, IN Jerusalem...(and the Point for the yearly Pilgrimage, TO Jerusalem.)

God has "Not Abandoned" the Jews/Israel/ His People. (Read Romans, chapt 11)
But God DID, cause them, (temporary) BLINDNESS.

Why? That is a bigger picture, deeper study.
IN BRIEF:
~ The Law can not SAVE a man.
~ Salvation OF God (Gods Act, IS Salvation given BY Gods GRACE.)
~ OT understanding was, Jews were Chosen, and THEY SAVED, BY obeying the LAW given "THEM" exclusively.
~ Gentiles being "introduced" to the Teaching of Gods Word....IS; Salvation IS given FROM God...BY Gods GRACE,
~ NOT, by a mans WORKS, NOT, by a mans TRADITIONS, NOT, by a mans Obedience to the LAW.
~ Gods Grace, IS Gods "Offering".
~ Mans "Acceptance", IS mans "Faithful Believing".

Jews (ISRAEL) were TAUGHT..."they" were "chosen"...
Because...they were.
Being "chosen"... (for anything), comes with Responsibilities, AND an expectation, the "chosen" WILL fulfill the "responsibilities".
* ISRAEL (a People) were to FIRST "TEACH" their own...THEN "TEACH" the WORLD (ie Gentiles).

THAT ^ perse' became a condunrum.
Jews were teaching Jews...but not Gentiles.

ENTER JESUS...
* Jesus chooses 12 Jews...to First TEACH Jews.
* After Teaching Jews...to then TEACH, (all tribesmen)
* After Teaching all Tribesmen...to then TEACH, the Gentiles.
* A REPEAT of what God had initially established.
** Gods offering of HIS GRACE.
** Any mans acceptance of HIS GRACE, by, through, of .... Gods Word.

Inanutshell...Once Gentiles Accepted...their Salvation IS BECAUSE of Gods Offering of HIS GRACE....to ALL men....
Jews (ISRAEL), has to come to that SAME Understanding.

* What we have Learned IS;
Jews (ISRAEL) failed to TEACH Gentiles.
Gentiles have failed to TEACH (ISRAEL).
~ (Gathering places) Synagogs remain (pretty much exclusive to ISRAEL teaching.
~ (Gathering places) homes, schools, churches, tent meetings remain (pretty much exclusive to GENTILE teaching.

* What we have Learned IS;
~ Salvation IS Gods to GIVE.
~ Salvation IS Because OF Gods GRACE.
~ God "offers" His GRACE TO ALL.
~ Men "decide" to KNOW, to BELIEVE, to ACCEPT Gods "offering"...or NOT.

* Men, can NOT "consider" to believe, "choose" to believe....what "THEY" have NOT HEARD.

Reflecting on JESUS' message...
Go, Speak, Repeat, The WORD of God, FOR the whole World to.....HEAR

Sure, missionaries of some Gentiles WHOLE ministry is highly focused on, going, speaking, repeating; The Word of God., a nobel cause IMO....but to where are they going, speaking, repeating? Including Synagogs? (Not so much.)

* First and foremost Everything, WHAT God Offers, WHAT God Gives to the "willing", hangs ON GODS GRACE and thereafter what "ANY" man, decides, chooses, accepts.

* God has not "abandoned" Israel. God did "blind" them (temporarily), EXPRESSLY, to give Gentiles opportunity to "HEAR".

* I dare say, most OF the Whole world HAS "HEARD"...(and with consideration of Tyrant nation leaders who FORBID the Hearing, and children being born daily)....Yet, God Himself, has A remedy for that.

* Revelations, includes the Revealing of Exactly HOW, the (temporary Blindness), of (ISRAEL)...IS REMOVED...
* FOR the express purpose OF ISRAEL to Hear FROM "their OWN Tribesmen" their Salvation IS Offered, BECAUSE of Gods GRACE (not because of obeying Laws, not because of performing Rituals, not because of Being ISRAEL).
* In short, it is, entering IN, ISRAEL, into the Understanding OF Gods GRACE, IS WHY, "ANY" man can be SAVED.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[dad]

I understand your position. You and I have had almost no conversation between us having just "met" yesterday, but it's likely we think the same way on this issue.

There was a Baptist named Arthur Pink (1886-1952) who was one of those few who studied the bible and had an extraordinary grasp of the content, before there were computer tools and software to help one study it. He used to believe in Dispensationalism and then rejected it and began writing against it around the early 1930's. He also happens to be the poster boy for Calvinism.

About 2 or 3 years ago I was reading one of his essays on election and in the essay he was making comparison/contrast remarks about Calvinism vs Arminianism. If I recall, there were 5 major points Arminianists believe and he was shooting them down one by one, but there were 2 points that he acknowledged were formidable. Near the end of the essay he told his readers that they needed to come to grasps with those 2 points that Arminiasts hold because he could find no argument against them. This was a significant and honest essay.

I remember enjoying the outcome. It goes along with what I have always (almost 40 years) said -- both positions are true.

I humorously say "It's above our pay grade". God said His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways. Seeming contradictory things can be and are true if God says so.

The brightest minds have searched and anguished over the issue (Predestination and Free will) and we can see plainly that they are both true at the same time. No problem as far as I'm concerned.

When a Calvinist attempts to engage me in the argument, I visibly laugh and tell him, "They are both true". And he then knows that I'm not going to play the game with him and usually smiles.

I cannot think that it is true that people are born saved or damned. Jesus paid a very very very heavy price to make a way for all who would believe. If it was pre destined, that would not be necessary. We step in to the pre destined Way He made for us to have eternal life. No one is born with it. What we are born with is that there is a way for us if we choose. If the book of life were all set in stone no one could have their name erased from it! How would they do that? By refusing the love of God in Jesus, who offered them eternal life if they would. No one made them reject Him. They had the choice. Just as Adam had the choice. We are chosen because we chose Him. We were chosen before the world began because we would choose Him. He died for something, not nothing.
So, do we agree? I don't know.

 

[dad]

Israel is Gods People, as a whole,

They are His people in the sense that He chose them and gave them the choice to obey Him. In the end, only the remnant that believes will be saved. They will be His people. There is no birthright to salvation. The birthright only gives them the right to choose eternal life in Jesus. Those who do not will be rejected just as they rejected the cornerstone.

 

[Taken]

When people focus on the word predestination, I am wary. It was predestined that God had a plan of salvation. He knew who would love Him. That does not mean we were born to be damned or saved.

I have no issue with the word "predestination"...
IN it's proper understanding.

I fully believe, OUR DESTINATION, is SET, from before OUR natural Birth.

Meaning;
I fully believe, God KNOWS ALL THINGS.
I fully believe, God HAS Fully "PREPARED" ALL THINGS.

Understanding;
Men DO NOT KNOW ALL THINGS.
Men "Learn" things over a process of time.
Men "Hear" things (from multiple sources) over a process of time.
Men can NOT 'unhear", what they have heard
(Whether or not, they "willingly Heard", or Heard by "happenstance").
Once a man "hears", the individual man DECIDES, to hear more, to consider, to believe, or to reject. <--- THAT is an individual "exercising" his 'freewill'.
DAILY, men hear, consider, believe, reject...
* Individual men, Daily, repeat, hearing, consider, believe, change WHAT they believe, reject WHAT they previously believed.
* DAILY ^ that, IS...WHAT men DO, as they are 'indtroduced" to MORE KNOWLEDGE".

* ^ THAT, IS NOT, "NEWS" to the All KNOWING GOD....'IT IS NEWS" to every individual man.
* WHAT, "every individual" man SHALL LAND ON...Believing IN God...or NOT, (Men Decide over a course of Time)....
* God Already KNOWS, exactly WHAT every individuals FINAL BELIEF WILL BE, (at the time of that individuals Physical Death)
* and God Has Already Prepared A "PLACE" for every individuals FINAL Belief (at the time of that individuals Physical Death)...
* A PLACE....for the mans BODY, for the mans soul, for the mans spirit.

In essence....I do believe every mans "DESTINY" IS established and Known By God Himself...BECAUSE, God Knew US, Knew what we would Hear, Knew what we WOULD CHOOSE.... BEFORE we were naturally born.

We, in some respects, KNOW things, BEFORE they are "manifested". (Realized, seen, confirmed).
We, may KNOW, in our perspective, YET, moreso call it, SUSPECT, or even HOPE...
"until it is manifested"....then say things like..."I KNEW IT"....I KNEW that would HAPPEN, (come to pass).
(We are not "MAKING" it come to pass, BECAUSE we foreknew.)

Same with God. He is not MAKING a man choose to BE WITH HIM, or choose to BE WITHOUT HIM, because He Knows (before we do)...what we will Choose.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[NewMusic]

I cannot think that it is true that people are born saved or damned. Jesus paid a very very very heavy price to make a way for all who would believe. If it was pre destined, that would not be necessary. We step in to the pre destined Way He made for us to have eternal life. No one is born with it. What we are born with is that there is a way for us if we choose. If the book of life were all set in stone no one could have their name erased from it! How would they do that? By refusing the love of God in Jesus, who offered them eternal life if they would. No one made them reject Him. They had the choice. Just as Adam had the choice. We are chosen because we chose Him. We were chosen before the world began because we would choose Him. He died for something, not nothing.
So, do we agree? I don't know.

The way you outline your thoughts show you have done some due diligence in the word, pondered some of the heavy issues, and are making an attempt to put it into words. Your approach and use of a verse or two is from a different angle than what is typically done.

:)

 

[Taken]

They are His people in the sense that He chose them and gave them the choice to obey Him. In the end, only the remnant that believes will be saved. They will be His people. There is no birthright to salvation. The birthright only gives them the right to choose eternal life in Jesus.

Agree.

Those who do not will be rejected just as they rejected the cornerstone.

Agree, ISRAEL, (a people), some have Abandoned God, and shall be cut off.

However in my perspective...
Historically: ISRAEL, believed IN:
God "and" His WORD.

The phenomenal MYSTERY, was WHEN God SENT, "HIS WORD", in the LIKENESS as a "man"...
It was a condunrum...
ISRAEL begged to SEE, what they could not SEE, and when "they saw", many still "doubted", mocked, and disbelieved".

* WHY? God gave "ISRAEL" (men) VISIONS...
AND said...YOU men, having VISONS...Go teach other men, what you saw, heard, learned in the VISIONS.
* AND? Men having the VISIONS, went on to teach what they saw and heard.
* AND? The men with VISIONS complained...
* COMPLAINT...The TASK is TOO HARD, to teach men, ABOUT WHAT "THEY" cannot SEE or HEAR.

In essence, men teaching men, About what the "students', Could not grasp, WAS, essentially....MAKING the "teachers" (being not believed, mocked) feel like a failure.

Remember...much of the Teaching WAS ABOUT GOD...AND...Prophecy, foretelling OF WHAT WOULD come to Pass.
Remember...much of the Prophecy, actually was pursuant to effect future generations....
THUS, the Present generations, were skeptical.....and the TEACHING HARD.

Jer 2:
[9] Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the LORD, and with your children's children will I plead.
[10] For pass over the isles of Chittim, and see; and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing.

Gods "REMEDY"...A prophecy...THEN...the Present Generation ABLE to "SEE" it come to pass.
Satisfactory FOR SOME...but still others SKEPTICAL..."more complaints".

Gods "REMEDY"....A prophetic PROMISE...
God Himself, WOULD come among men, WALK among men, SAVE them (ISRAEL)

We know the Story. God Sent His Word...However it was NOT in the manner Jews EXPECTED.
And that is Always mans dilemma...Expecting God to Conform "HIS WAY", to what men "formulate and think "His Way" "should be revealed".

The frustration of "the Teacher", is believing it is "THEIR" duty (of sorts) to accomplish "MAKING" men BELIEVE.
* When in FACT, their "duty" is simply Speaking the Word of God. NOT "MAKING" men Believe...
* God Himself does NOT "MAKE" men Believe.
* Belief of a man, is his own freewill.
* God simply "MAKES" His Word "available" FOR men TO Hear.
* God "MAKES" a "willing Believer"... TRANSFORMED...."according TO His "WAY", and "ORDER" of "WHEN" the Transformation will be manifested, (ie, come to pass)

Those who do not will be rejected just as they rejected the cornerstone.

Remember...ISRAEL (remaining IN belief IN GOD)....Believe IN Gods Word...
* Their dilemma, IS Believing "Gods WORD", was revealed in the Likeness As a man....
(VOID of a visible Kingdom, VOID of visible POMP, Royalty, Wealth, Power, Army, bordered Land, Protecting them FROM all their enemies, exclusively FOR THEM.)
* Its a conundrum...
ISRAEL, expected...a PHYSICAL salvation.
God OFFERED........a SPIRITUAL salvation.

* BUT not to worry...God has a remedy FOR ISRAEL to hear, learn, understand and receive their Spiritual Salvation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Curtis]

Just read a thread about war in heaven via Rev 12:7. Though I read revelations 3x, I confess I cannot keep it in my head. I even read a book by a Rabbi who did an excellent analysis of connecting the many figurative passages.

The 1st time I read Revelations, I thought John must have been smoking something strong when he wrote it.

In the thread referenced above, several poster got into the phases of tribulation and that is not made clear to me from the text. Like Nostradamus predictions, passages are written so figuratively, they can be taken to mean nearly anything.

So, can anyone explain this book at a 4th grade level in just a short paragraph or two?

I disagree with that. I’ve read the original nostradamas quatrains, and they are so incredibly vague they can mean just about anything - but when you buy most of the books, they don’t show you the original quatrains, they just show you their invented interpretation of them, leaving the false impression that they were very impressive and specific prophecies.

Whereas the prophecies in the Bible are not vague, they are specific, and the symbolism in the Bible is either explainedMin the same text the symbolism is found in, or is explained somewhere else in the Bible.

Revelation is about the end time judgment of God on the world and the final destruction of evil, the final judgment of Satan, and the coming of the new heavens and the earth where everything is restored to Edenic conditions, and God dwells on the new earth in the city new Jerusalem with man forever.

 

[Curtis]

@Wrangler.....I'm not good at a paragraph or two,

but this is one explanation that I would beg to differ with.....sorry HiH, its not about literal Israel....after the Jews had Jesus executed, God severed all ties with them, as Jesus said in Matthew 23:37-39. They would not see him again unless they were 'blessing him as the one who came in the name of Yahweh'......in the last 2,000 years, have they done that? Individuals have, but as a nation, God cast them off as those who murdered his prophets and who were serial covenant breakers. Once he had produced his Messiah, his part of the covenant was fulfilled, and he no longer wanted to have anything to do with that stubborn stiff necked people.

Literal Israel are blood spillers, and like their forebears, instead of putting their trust in their God, they allied themselves with nations whose worship they despise.....they have no relationship with the God of Abraham now because they failed to receive their Messiah, who was sent to save them and reward them for their faithfulness...but they always let him down in the worst way.....so God fulfilled Acts 15:14. He replaced them. (Matthew 21:43)

And yes, the Revelation was to take place “in the Lord’s day”...a time yet thousands of years into the future when John was given this vision.

There are many things that are “presented in signs” in this vision, as Rev 1:1 states.

Revelation 12 begins with a woman giving birth, which I believe depicts the birth of God’s Kingdom, the crown of 12 stars may indicate the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel....."the Israel of God". (Those mentioned by Paul at Galatians 6:16 and includes both Jewish and Gentile Christians)

Revelation 12:7-12...
"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” (ESV)

Since there was a war in heaven with Michael and his angels battling satan and his angels, we know who won, but we did not see any evidence of that war here on earth....only the end result that is spoken about in Revelation 12:7-12.

We would expect the devil, now confined to this earth, to increase his activities as his time becomes shorter. He knows the fate that awaits him, but he is going to increase the violence, selfishness, immorality and mayhem that are taking place in these "last days" as much as he can. (2 Timothy 3:1-5) Its very much a case of rule or ruin....

I see Jesus' prophesy in Matthew 24:3-14 and Luke 21:17-19, had a dual fulfillment, first with the end of the Jewish system in 70C.E. and then beginning to see fulfillment again with the sudden outbreak of the "First World War" in 1914. Why do I say that? Because the first sign of the end was unprecedented warfare.....never in the history of mankind had the whole world been drawn into a global conflict of this magnitude....and virtually without warning. Alliances broke the world up into two opposing blocks of nations, and would do the same again in another global conflict, if such were to break out again.

Jesus said...."Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another food shortages and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs." (Luke 21:10-11)

The weaponry used in that war was the most deadly ever used in any war before then.
Weapons of World War I

The Second World War was even more heinous.....Imagine the weaponry now if another World War was to break out.......it would be terrifying to say the least.

Earthquakes have also increased during this time of the end....along with the love of the general population becoming cold and uncaring.

We notice in Revelation 12 that this heightened activity of the devil coincides with Jesus receiving his authority as King....and that satan's eviction from heaven resulted in great joy for those who dwell there, but for the earth, it would be nothing but woe...increasing in intensity as the day for his the devil's imprisonment draws closer. Soon that "ancient serpent" will be in a maximum security prison for 1,000 years whilst Jesus brings humanity back into reconciliation with God.

That is how I see it.....

Replacement theology is simply biblical Illiteracy.

 

[JohnPaul]

I believe the Book of Revelations is coming to pass this very minute, we must be ready to fight the adversary and his minions and be at the right hand of the Lamb who will return as the Lion and smite the adversary and his minions off the face of the Earth.

Behold for I saw a pale horse and on it rode Death and hell followed with him!

We must be prepared for when the End Times come which they've begun already and that Pale horse is racing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It's a contradictory argument. Why would he be trying to exterminate them off the planet if he "loves" them? Doesn't make any sense.

It does if you listen without the knee jerks....God has handed Israel over to the nations...she is just a political entity now, her hands have blood on them. (Isaiah 1:15) She no longer exists as a spiritual nation. Many of those who profess to be “Jewish” are identifying themselves as a nationality, not a religion. There are Jewish atheists for goodness sake....

I'm aware of it, and you are arguing that God loves Jehovahs Witnesses but hates the Jews. Again, this is a contradictory argument.

No, I am arguing that those in the concentration camps were there for two reasons.....they had incurred the ire of the Nazi regime in one of two ways....they either wanted to exterminate a certain hated group of people, or they wanted to control those who refused to give in to their demands. Many of the Jews who survived the camps had their faith shattered. They did not know why their God would allows such an extermination....but their ancestors in times past suffered the same way because God had abandoned them to their enemies. Those JW’s who survived the camps maintained their faith because they could see a purpose to it.

Ah, so we are taking the spiritual element out of it now? :) And the Muslims and the NAZIs are fully justified to exterminate them then? Again, I would ask what spirit your are of.

Whoa there......not so fast with the condemnation buddy....I wish no ill will towards anyone. I am simply being realistic as the Bible tells the story. God only allowed his people to suffer defeat if they were disobedient.....their exile into Babylon took place for that reason.....but not all Israel were disobedient or wicked. There were faithful ones suffering along with the culprits....but these too had their purpose. Daniel was used by God to write prophesies about the times were are living in now. And his three companions who walked out of the fiery furnace.....gave us a glimpse of what real faith is all about.....Babylon did not conquer their faith.

Oh my goodness. You said it.

What did I say? I only reiterated what Jesus said. Israel’s history of rebellion was appalling.

Did they transgress in their history? Yes. But were they to blame for some transgression every time they suffered evils, or where they somehow hated by God? No.

At times their sin was so bad that Jehovah likened them to prostitutes. Worse still he pictured himself as their faithful husband, which made their excursions into pagan beliefs and practices even more reprehensible.
We are doing a study in Ezekiel now as a matter of fact....about that very situation.

Well, I'm guessing this line won't win me any points with you, but I can't tell you anything different. I'm discussing things in another thread with a Swaggart fan who's telling me I shouldn't say anything bad about them because I shouldn't "touch God's anointed." I don't feel any convictions about that.

They are no longer the “anointed of Jehovah”....he has cast them off because they were incorrigible.
To whom was Jesus sent? To the religious leaders? No! To the “lost sheep” because their negligent shepherds had failed to treat them with any compassion. It was to these that Jesus offered salvation...the Pharisees he condemned to Gehenna. Read Matthew ch 23.

But siding with those who want to exterminate the Jews? Heavens. It's what they call a "tell." I think your religion is governed by a false spirit that would lead you to side with the Devil on this. Not much else to say.

You are putting words in my mouth....I never said I sided with those who want to exterminate the Jews.....their fate is not my business. I’ll leave that to the judge appointed by God....he will judge all of us.

Let me ask you this: I was reading somewhere that JWs believe only they are saved, and anyone who is not a JW is not. Is that correct?

No. Being saved is not about wearing any label. Just as baptism is not just about getting dunked in some water. Jesus was clear about whom he will recognize as his own on judgment day.....only those “doing the will of his Father”....so who are doing the will of the Father today? What is the will of the Father? The door of opportunity is not closed until God closes it.

If so, then you would say the same thing you just said above about the vast majority of the people on this forum. I hate to put you on the spot, but I think it's relevant to ask. Does not virtually everyone else on this forum likewise have no place with God because they have rejected JW teaching?

It’s not about rejecting JW teaching....it’s about rejecting Bible teaching....deliberately disobeying the Son, gets a person offside with his Father.
Would you like a list of the things that Christendom fails to do? I used to be one of them.

Bah. He was speaking to spiritual Israel. Again, by this same argument you could say that all of America, including every Christian in it, is going to Hell for defending their nation by military means.

As I said...Christianity has no nationality. No Christian can take up arms to fight and kill anyone just because their government wants something that belongs to someone else, whether it’s land or oil or any other resource. What if that person is a fellow believer? That happened in the two World Wars of last century. Catholic killed Catholic and Protestants killed their own brethren....Jesus did not advocate taking up arms to fight anyone, let alone a fellow Christian. (2 Cor 10:3-4; Matthew 5:43-45; 1 John 4:20-21)

 

[Hidden In Him]

It does if you listen without the knee jerks....God has handed Israel over to the nations...she is just a political entity now, her hands have blood on them. (Isaiah 1:15) She no longer exists as a spiritual nation. Many of those who profess to be “Jewish” are identifying themselves as a nationality, not a religion. There are Jewish atheists for goodness sake....

You're saying there are no devout Jews? Come on. :)

Whoa there......not so fast with the condemnation buddy....I wish no ill will towards anyone. I am simply being realistic as the Bible tells the story. God only allowed his people to suffer defeat if they were disobedient.....their exile into Babylon took place for that reason.....but not all Israel were disobedient or wicked. There were faithful ones suffering along with the culprits....but these too had their purpose. Daniel was used by God to write prophesies about the times were are living in now. And his three companions who walked out of the fiery furnace.....gave us a glimpse of what real faith is all about.....Babylon did not conquer their faith.

Their faith still hasn't been conquered. They just don't know who their Messiah is yet.

At times their sin was so bad that Jehovah likened them to prostitutes. Worse still he pictured himself as their faithful husband, which made their excursions into pagan beliefs and practices even more reprehensible.

And? :) He brought them back, Jane. Your assumption is that He has decided He is never bringing them back now, when this has never been His track record.

They are no longer the “anointed of Jehovah”....he has cast them off because they were incorrigible.
To whom was Jesus sent? To the religious leaders? No! To the “lost sheep” because their negligent shepherds had failed to treat them with any compassion.

Yes, and you are assuming that there are no more lost sheep, and that Israel is no longer His pasture. See, we're gonna have to get into eschatology here pretty quickly, and that will open a whole new can of worms. Not sure if I wanna go there just yet, but what you do with a number of passages that suggest literal Israel is being referred to would come under question.

You are putting words in my mouth....I never said I sided with those who want to exterminate the Jews.....their fate is not my business.

Not in word. Im saying the spirit behind what you say sounds eerily similar. I posted a picture of the holocaust, and your reply was "They deserved it."

No. Being saved is not about wearing any label. Just as baptism is not just about getting dunked in some water. Jesus was clear about whom he will recognize as his own on judgment day.....only those “doing the will of his Father”....so who are doing the will of the Father today? What is the will of the Father?

Did you just dodge? :) Are the JWs the only ones doing His will at present, or are non JWs doing so as well? Just trying to get an answer from an actual Jehovahs Witness. I have no idea personally.

It’s not about rejecting JW teaching....it’s about rejecting Bible teaching..

Ok, now that WAS a dodge. You gotta cut that out. We're both intelligent enough to know that both of us lay claim to receiving "Bible teaching." Jehovahs Witnesses don't have an exclusive claim on that, no matter how much they'd like to.

...Jesus did not advocate taking up arms to fight anyone, let alone a fellow Christian. (2 Cor 10:3-4; Matthew 5:43-45; 1 John 4:20-21)

Jane, this is circular. He did command the Jews to fight, and those Jews who have not yet received Jesus as their Messiah will therefore still feel as though they are commanded to fight for their land. It is their birthright, and they believe in a physical inheritance in the land God promised to Abraham.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Just read a thread about war in heaven via Rev 12:7. Though I read revelations 3x, I confess I cannot keep it in my head. I even read a book by a Rabbi who did an excellent analysis of connecting the many figurative passages.

The 1st time I read Revelations, I thought John must have been smoking something strong when he wrote it.

In the thread referenced above, several poster got into the phases of tribulation and that is not made clear to me from the text. Like Nostradamus predictions, passages are written so figuratively, they can be taken to mean nearly anything.

So, can anyone explain this book at a 4th grade level in just a short paragraph or two?

It is called Revelation, drop the "s" and sorry -- I can't do it in one paragraph. As a wise theologian once said, those who put an "s" on Revelation usually are the ones who don't understand it.
It is the Revelation, the unveiling of Christ. The Seven Letters pertained to not only specific churches in the 1st century, but also church types throughout the ages. Problems within churches of sin and false doctrines existed then as they do today. Warnings go out to repent or else!
Jesus ascends into heaven after His death and resurrection and is given a Scroll, with orders that contain the consummation of history: salvation, redemption and judgment, which are contained in seals, trumpets and bowls.
The world reaches the precipice in time when good and evil finally become separated. By this time, the Gospel has been spread throughout the entire world to every nation and so man becomes decisively divided into believers and non- believers of Christ. An Antichrist takes over the world for 3 1/2 years and Jesus comes and defeats him and physically rules the nations from Jerusalem for a Millennium. Satan, the Antichrist and his horde are locked up during this time so are unable to tempt mankind until the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
This is a time of love and peace, a Paradise reborn, as it once was in the Garden.
At the end of this earthly kingdom, Satan is released for a short time once again for a final show. Since Jesus Christ rules the earth during this time, with only believers who know and worship Him; why would He release Satan again? Not all are on board with Him. Babies are born in sin and so these children, though being raised in Christian homes and being brought up in a Paradise where all is good, still need their faith to be tested as all our faiths were.
Again, this happens towards the end but only for short time.
God's final judgment, the Great White Throne judgment happens at this time. All who have been locked up in Hades throughout the history of the world have been waithing for this final judgment when Hades, Death and the first earth and first heaven are destroyed in a fervent heat (we can call this the Lake of Fire/Hell).
The New Jerusalem is the new eternal heaven that comes down. All former things have passed away. No more death, no more judgments, nor more tears, no more evil. The end.

 

[Pythagorean12]

No, we actually have a choice.

Proverbs 16:9

When we choose Jesus we are in there.

Ephesians 1:4

He knew we would. He still had to die to give us the opportunity.

That's because covents are sealed by blood.
Terms like, the Elect of God, indicate salvation is exclusive not inclusive.
As do all those scriptures that tell us Jesus came to save those chosen by God before the creation of anything.
John 6:37 & 44. And many other verses.

 

[Pythagorean12]

Sorry, but that does not hold water scripturally. The reason why is in the expression “founding of the world”.....it means the founding of the “kosmos” or “the world of mankind”, not the creation of the planet.

“The founding of the world” thus refers to the children of Adam and Eve. Who were born after the fall when God had already given his first prophesy in Genesis 3:15, foretelling the coming of the seed.

Believe as you need to.It is your narrative that makes no sense scripturally. If you think about what you're claiming is true, you'll see that.

God chose whom he would save before the foundation of the world.
The Lamb's Book of Life.
Then , besides all the OT verses that foretell of Jesus as savior to come, in the NT that very same savior says he teaches in parables that not everyone understand and come to salvation.

 

[bbyrd009]

Just read a thread about war in heaven via Rev 12:7. Though I read revelations 3x, I confess I cannot keep it in my head. I even read a book by a Rabbi who did an excellent analysis of connecting the many figurative passages.

The 1st time I read Revelations, I thought John must have been smoking something strong when he wrote it.

In the thread referenced above, several poster got into the phases of tribulation and that is not made clear to me from the text. Like Nostradamus predictions, passages are written so figuratively, they can be taken to mean nearly anything.

So, can anyone explain this book at a 4th grade level in just a short paragraph or two?

well, i would read the Rev in the context of “the revelation of Christ,” and thats all ill say about that, other than this thread should be good for about 200 pages