I have a question that remains unanswered:

[David in NJ]

well, i guess “last days” applied to 2000 years ago too :)

The Last Days did begin 2000 years ago. God has a Plan in these Last Days called the Gospel.
Once the Gospel is preached throughout the world and God is satisfied with this (He alone knows but we can still see)
then the end (of this Age) will come.
Our Lord has also included the necessary fulfillments that will take place prior to His Return - in the four Gospels.

Greatly troubled times, great deception, the rise of false christs/prophets, the falling away, the Abomination of Desolation, and then finally His Return.
Who knows when??? - Only the Father, but do not ignore what He said must take place before His Coming - Amen

 

[BarneyFife]

That is not non-equality but your mind cannot understand - again. The THREE are One and have Roles to Fulfill according to the Word that was God in the beginning - John 1:1.

Talking down to each other. Is it profitable?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

"God sent His only begotten Son into this world... then selflessly gave His life as a ransom for sin."

Do you not see that depending on how one defines "God" and "Son" here the Gospel radically changes? What if I think of God like the Mormons do? They would agree with this sentence, but their conception of God is blatantly non-Christian, they think of Him as a being who has physical sex to reproduce a child like a human, and that we will be exactly like Him with our own planet. This is why the Trinity is essential: you can not know who "God" is or who His "Son" is or what "life" He gave as a ransom or propitiation without first knowing what God is. If someone said "God" means "dog" and Jesus was just a dog masquerading as a human being, and that was the Gospel, would you really say they believed in the same Gospel as you? If someone thought God was really Santa and Jesus was an elf who lived a sinless human life would that be the same?

Actual "Mormon" here--

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Divine. Perfect, always has been, always will be. We God before creating the Earth, before being born of virgin Mary (yes virgin), during mortal life, and post-resurrection. And being a follower of Christ is neither about some eternal harp play or planet.

And while theological knowledge is indeed super important, salvation is not dependent on a man's ability to pass a theology test.

 

[David in NJ]

When did he ever deny it?

i was referring to his post # 536 where he said:
"No-one has ever explained what God is in a way they themselves could understand, let alone in a way anyone else could"

Now i fully agree with Backlit that we cannot fully or even partially understand "HOW" this Eternal One of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exists. But this does not mean that the WORD keeps us uninformed of this THREE Eternal Persons of the Godhead.

In Fact, God immediately begins instructing us that God is more then a singular one as we see the number 1 = a single item.

Genesis: Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness

 

[Abaxvahl]

Actual "Mormon" here--

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Divine. Perfect, always has been, always will be. We God before creating the Earth, before being born of virgin Mary (yes virgin), during mortal life, and post-resurrection. And being a follower of Christ is neither about some eternal harp play or planet.

And while theological knowledge is indeed super important, salvation is not dependent on a man's ability to pass a theology test.

I agree salvation is not dependent on a theology test, God forbid, for many have been saved who could not even read, or people who have been saved but had a difficult time thinking abstractly, or those who simply had to work all their days and did not have the leisure required to abstract in silence to learn theology.

What do you mean by "divine"? Is the divine nature similar to the deity formed by classical theism to you? Immaterial, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent (able to effect all things which are possible), impassible, immutable, timeless, infinite, uncircumscribed, and so on? For the last time I asked a Mormon about that they were agnostic as to whether or not such a being existed which to me is mind-boggling.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The THREE are One and have Roles to Fulfill according to the Word that was God in the beginning - John 1:1.

Well said, Precious friend. We can learn valuable lessons in humility, clearly
Shown By The "Roles to Fulfill" of The Triune GodHead! ie:

(1) The LORD JESUS CHRIST humbly submitted to The Father, to become
A Man For our Redemption, And, humbly submitted as Servant of all, on the earth!

(2) The Blessed Holy Spirit, humbly submitted To BOTH
The Father And The SON, To "Be Sent For His Role To Fulfill."

IF only WE could learn This Kind Of Humility, eh?
-------------------------
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

 

[BarneyFife]

i was referring to his post # 536 where he said:
"No-one has ever explained what God is in a way they themselves could understand, let alone in a way anyone else could"

Now i fully agree with Backlit that we cannot fully or even partially understand "HOW" this Eternal One of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exists. But this does not mean that the WORD keeps us uninformed of this THREE Eternal Persons of the Godhead.

In Fact, God immediately begins instructing us that God is more then a singular one as we see the number 1 = a single item.

Genesis: Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness

There seems to be basically 2 different arguments about the Trinity going on in this thread:

One is about Its existence.

And the other is about its priority in doctrine.

 

[bbyrd009]

I have found nothing on line, but if you wish to invest about $99 dollars there is a four volume set of books entitled "The life of Yeshua the Messiah from a hebrew perspective."

I use this to teach the life of Christ in bible Institute and it is written by a born again jew who IMNSHO is probably the churches best teacher of this era.

He has much writing on this and references.

Found a few, they are weak but here they are:

Messiah and Son of Man | jesus and the gospels (uoregon.edu)

3. Jesus the Son of Man. Names and Titles of Jesus (jesuswalk.com)

The Names and Titles of Messiah by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. A messianic Bible study. (messianicassociation.org)

I think we have reached an impasse, we agree to disagree. that is fine. we should end on this goo dnote. Have the last post if you wish.

im just not sure about relying on the word of a religion that, as near as i can see, was imploded by Yah Himself? On the flip side, i firmly believe that the truth is usually buried, and must needs be dug up; however ben Adam strikes me as a pretty humble claim on its face, one Jesus might even make? Anyway, your links seem solid enough, ty, ill check them out!

 

[David in NJ]

Well said, Precious friend. We can learn valuable lessons in humility, clearly
Shown By The "Roles to Fulfill" of The Triune GodHead! ie:

(1) The LORD JESUS CHRIST humbly submitted to The Father, to become
A Man For our Redemption, And, humbly submitted as Servant of all, on the earth!

(2) The Blessed Holy Spirit, humbly submitted To BOTH
The Father And The SON, To "Be Sent For His Role To Fulfill."

IF only WE could learn This Kind Of Humility, eh?
-------------------------
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

Thank You

 

[bbyrd009]

Let US make man in OUR IMAGE according to OUR LIKENESS

heart, mind, and gut, perhaps?

If you remove One you remove them All and you "add to and take away from God's words which is forbidden

seems to me, yes

Now i wait for the - not me it's you brother..........inspite of Scripture

lost me here, sorry? But fwiw i do not require that everyone else believe as i do :)

 

[David in NJ]

There seems to be basically 2 different arguments about the Trinity going on in this thread:

One is about Its existence.

And the other is about its priority in doctrine.

I only focus on what the Word declares to be true.
I am not concerned as i know God figured that one out since Eternity.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Last Days did begin 2000 years ago. God has a Plan in these Last Days called the Gospel.
Once the Gospel is preached throughout the world and God is satisfied with this (He alone knows but we can still see)
then the end (of this Age) will come.
Our Lord has also included the necessary fulfillments that will take place prior to His Return - in the four Gospels.

Greatly troubled times, great deception, the rise of false christs/prophets, the falling away, the Abomination of Desolation, and then finally His Return.
Who knows when??? - Only the Father, but do not ignore what He said must take place before His Coming - Amen

well, maybe, but imo dont be surprised if it doesnt work out ezackly as you imagine, ok? I say this bc no one can Quote “Jesus, returning” among some other possible misperceptions
shuvu
Return to Me, and I will return to you
hupo strepho
…

 

[bbyrd009]

Who knows when??? - Only the Father

ha so much for Jesus being Him, huh? But hopefully its obvious that this q/a might be taken another way; “when will this person get it?”
“Yah only knows”

 

[David in NJ]

heart, mind, and gut, perhaps?

seems to me, yes

lost me here, sorry? But fwiw i do not require that everyone else believe as i do :)

neither do i, but i will address false teachings by directing to what God has said in His Word.
fwiw - God requires that we believe and live off of every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
i also know that we are His and He establishes the relationship and brings forth the necessary growth He desires

I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

[David in NJ]

ha so much for Jesus being Him, huh? But hopefully its obvious that this q/a might be taken another way; “when will this person get it?”
“Yah only knows”

This does not take away from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are One(echad) Eternal God.

Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What do you mean by "divine"? Is the divine nature similar to the deity formed by classical theism to you? Immaterial, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent (able to effect all things which are possible), impassible, immutable, timeless, infinite, uncircumscribed, and so on? For the last time I asked a Mormon about that they were agnostic as to whether or not such a being existed which to me is mind-boggling.

“Mormon” theology doesn’t incorporate Greek/Roman/Classical philosophy the way Creedal theology does. For example, both believe God is all powerful, but an LDS Christian doesn’t usually go about phrasing things as “God is omnipotent”, so that can fumble up communication. Yes, God is all-powerful, all present, all knowing etc. And also all/perfectly loving, just, and merciful (huge points in LDS Christian theology). His goodness & glory don’t change. He is everlasting and without end.

Some of the terms on your list (immaterial, impassable, immutable) conceptually lean heavily into Greek/Roman/Classical philosophy, and hence get harder to discuss with just scripture. Usually it requires a detour into “Hey let’s have a philosophy class”, which while I love that, vast majority of folks don’t.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Once God established His Truth in Genesis and Exodus he does not have to recite/repeat it every single time -

The Shema: declares what God said: Let US make man in OUR IMAGE according to OUR Likeness.

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The LORD God of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

THREE Persons of Elohim established by the WORD in Genesis and confirmed as HIS NAME FOREVER in Exodus.

i told you before, posting a lengthy list of Scripture does not prove anything - OBEYING the WORD is what God commands.

You fail to see what God said His Name is FOREVER in Genesis and Exodus - therefore your attempts will fail as you do not understand the very Scripture you post.

You are making the same mistake of the scholarly Jews who studied the scriptures their entire lives - only to be blinded by their trust in them instead of what God said to them.

I find this level of blindness fascinating......completely ignoring and denying what is clearly stated in the scriptures you claim to follow.....God’s name never was “I Am”.....see the Tanakh. Don’t the Jews know how to interpret their own scripture?

Your choice....your outcome.

 

[Abaxvahl]

“Mormon” theology doesn’t incorporate Greek/Roman/Classical philosophy the way Creedal theology does. For example, both believe God is all powerful, but an LDS Christian doesn’t usually go about phrasing things as “God is omnipotent”, so that can fumble up communication. Yes, God is all-powerful, all present, all knowing etc. And also all/perfectly loving, just, and merciful (huge points in LDS Christian theology). His goodness & glory don’t change. He is everlasting and without end.

Some of the terms on your list (immaterial, impassable, immutable) conceptually lean heavily into Greek/Roman/Classical philosophy, and hence get harder to discuss with just scripture. Usually it requires a detour into “Hey let’s have a philosophy class”, which while I love that, vast majority of folks don’t.

Interesting. Well as I also love the philosophy side of things and consider natural revelation (accessible by reason) as true speech of God like the Scriptures (for no text is self-interpreting this enters either meaninglessness or some ridiculous circularity and knowledge claims), what do you say about God? Do you think your theology is compatible with these philosophical ideas or does it diverge from them? Of course not all classical philosophy is right and it had to be heavily corrected by the Fathers to be in accord with Scripture and such, but what I quoted (those titles) are not controversial.

For I am not sure yet how to take your "all" here such as "all loving" or "all knowing," as these are all either things God is or energies of God it seems like LDS theology logically reduces to exactly what the Creeds say, I can not imagine a being not like we describe who has these qualities without it not really being the same. Moreover it is commonly denied that there is equivalence between the ideas so I don't know what to make of that.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Interesting. Well as I also love the philosophy side of things and consider natural revelation (accessible by reason) as true speech of God like the Scriptures (for no text is self-interpreting this enters either meaninglessness or some ridiculous circularity and knowledge claims), what do you say about God? Do you think your theology is compatible with these philosophical ideas or does it diverge from them? Of course not all classical philosophy is right and it had to be heavily corrected by the Fathers to be in accord with Scripture and such, but what I quoted (those titles) are not controversial.
.

I do certainly enjoy philosophy, and find such to be the wisdom of man. It has good things there, but also limitations and somethings (while well intended) miss the mark.

Such is also my view of Classical influence on Creedal theology: the Creeds and Church Fathers works.

For I am not sure yet how to take your "all" here such as "all loving" or "all knowing," as these are all either things God is or energies of God it seems like LDS theology logically reduces to exactly what the Creeds say, I can not imagine a being not like we describe who has these qualities without it not really being the same. Moreover it is commonly denied that there is equivalence between the ideas so I don't know what to make of that.

Vast majority of Creedal statement LDS Christians actually do agree with, even though the Creeds aren’t studied.

Some parts of Creedal theology are just “huh?” to LDS Christians. Example, “outside of time” is just not a concept.

There a some points of disagreement / non-applicable. most notably the Athanasian Creed’s statement about the substance of God. Forgive me for not quoting it- I’m on my phone.

 

[David in NJ]

I find this level of blindness fascinating......completely ignoring and denying what is clearly stated in the scriptures you claim to follow.....God’s name never was “I Am”.....see the Tanakh. Don’t the Jews know how to interpret their own scripture?

Your choice....your outcome.

Lady Jane - Where did God first communicate with man?
Answer: In the Garden
How do we know this?
Answer: Genesis
Who told us that more then one Person created us - God did.
How do we know?
Answer: Genesis
Who are the THREE that created ALL Things? "The Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness."
Answer: Father, Son and Holy Spirit
How do we know?
Answer: God said so in Genesis.
How do we know?
Answer: He confirmed it in Exodus 3:14-15
Is that it???
Answer: No, He continued building from Genesis through Revelation of the One Eternal God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How do we know???
Answer: Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.