BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
This kind of talk is exactly why these discussions never get anywhere.Non-Trinitarians aren't even Christians
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This kind of talk is exactly why these discussions never get anywhere.Non-Trinitarians aren't even Christians
That is COMPLETELY FALSE AND MISLEADING. I will give you just one passage to refute that nonsense. If all the angels of God are commanded to worship the Son, that in itself means that He is God. But the Father does not stop there. He addresses the Son as "God" (Theos) -- not once but twice.The Father alone is divine.
I will give you just one passage to refute that nonsense.
HEBREWS 1: GOD THE FATHER CALLS THE SON "GOD" (THEOS)
Let me finish the entire argument or commentary that you omitted by this Biblical Unitarian:Greetings all.
I have a day or two off, and I was browsing the site and noticed we still have a lot of non-Trinitarians posting. So after looking into a few things I thought I would post something on the issue. As God wills, I will post additional parts to this series, but for now let me start with a passage where I think the non-Trinitarian argument isn't well supported.
Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)
Now, quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is their argument concerning this verse:
1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.
2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
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The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.
I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.
God bless,
Hidden In Him
I swear, the deliberate misinterpreting Scripture to support an inherently contradictory doctrine knows no bounds.
This kind of talk is exactly why these discussions never get anywhere.![]()
But all the doctrines of this cult are absurd and will send people to Hell.
Greetings all.
I have a day or two off, and I was browsing the site and noticed we still have a lot of non-Trinitarians posting. So after looking into a few things I thought I would post something on the issue. As God wills, I will post additional parts to this series, but for now let me start with a passage where I think the non-Trinitarian argument isn't well supported.
Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)
Now, quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is their argument concerning this verse:
1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.
2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________
The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.
I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.
God bless,
Hidden In Him
Appeal to intimidation. What verse says if you do not believe in the trinity, you cannot be saved and will go to hell?
Appeal to intimidation. What verse says if you do not believe in the trinity, you cannot be saved and will go to hell?
JWs aren’t
From Forum Terms And Rules:The discussion by it's nature can not get anywhere. The positions are can not be reconciled to one another and have entirely different worldviews behind them. The only "getting somewhere" in such a discussion is one person submitting to the position of another.
I think it important that we share a true perspective of Father Son relationships from a Godly example... There are many who through a less than ideal and even abusive relationship with their own human fathers cannot envisage a Father God being any better, particularly in light of false theories and doctrines regarding eternal torment etc. What Father would do that they say... And rightly so. Calvary however bring true light to the love and mercy of God and gives Fatherhood it's right glory.What if God having initiated the real and perfect father and son relationship between Himself and Jesus... He then incorporated it into His plan for mankind as a goal to be pursued?
Of course, as we all know man has very often failed to live up to goals or ideals that God has presented. This is so for fathers and sons as well as for many other things. All part of God's plan and purpose!
Where are we heading?
Where is it that God wants us to be heading? Spending so much time embroiled in debates on the nature of God maybe there are really more important things that should be engaging us?
There is much in your quote I agree with. Yes, Jesus was a man and certainly could empathize and sympathize with our lives and temptations... His temptations as you say were very real. He inherited the very same weaknesses we inherit from our ancestors. He can from a line of prostitutes, murderers, and other sinners, just as we do. 4000 years of declining human strength and moral integrity. Yet He never sinned. Neither in thought or deed. Why is that? How did He do that, and how is He our example of we cannot do the same? He lived by faith. Your Unitarian friend said Jesus had no memory of His past existence. That is true. But He knew of it because He could read the scriptures, and read about Himself there. Can you imagine the first time as a child coming to the realization that God was His Father in the highest sense? That He did have a pre incarnate existence and His whole purpose in life was to live out His mission to save mankind... His creation? Yes, and the gift of His Son to mankind was so broad, so deep, it was permanent. The Son of God, while remaining His Father's Son, will also always be identified as human. Mankind, through Christ, will always in all eternity be linked with the God of that universe in ways no other being including angels could every have, in links that can never be broken.It can also be used the way Trinitarians use it: to prove the Trinity. However, when it is used that way it reveals a Christ that we as Christians cannot truly identify with. We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom. The Bible says that Christ can “sympathize with our weakness” because he was “tempted in every way, just as we are” (Heb. 4:15).
Let me finish the entire argument or commentary that you omitted by this Biblical Unitarian:
, and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” However, if, as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense. He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all. If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “tempted in every way just as we are” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “made like his brothers in every way” (Heb. 2:17) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom. That would not really be true if Christ had access to some type of God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom.
We believe that John 17:5 is a great example of a verse that demonstrates the need for clear thinking concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. The verse can clearly be interpreted in a way that is honest and biblically sound, and shows that Christ was a man, but was in the foreknowledge of God as God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. It can also be used the way Trinitarians use it: to prove the Trinity. However, when it is used that way it reveals a Christ that we as Christians cannot truly identify with. We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom. The Bible says that Christ can “sympathize with our weakness” because he was “tempted in every way, just as we are” (Heb. 4:15). The thrust of that verse is very straightforward. Because Christ was just like we are, and was tempted in every way that we are, he can sympathize with us. However, if he was not “just as we are,” then he would not be able to sympathize with us. We assert that making Christ a God-man makes it impossible to really identify with him.
3. Jesus’ prayer in John 17 sets a wonderful example for us as Christians. He poured out his heart to his Father, “the only true God” (John 17:3), and prayed that the prophecies of the Old Testament about him would be fulfilled.
Let me clarify a little more. Belief that at some time 'in eternity' the Son came forth from His Father, thus becoming a son in the highest sense, does not mean He isn't eternal. As a Son of God He inherited all things that the Father is. With God He does all things to perfection. Thus Christ was the 'express image' of the Father. A perfect reproduction if you like, thus equal in glory, honor, authority and power. Equal in all things except rank. That makes the Son, God. In fact it's the only thing that makes the Son God. It's the greatest evidence to His deity, which is why the apostle John went to such great pains to teach it in his gospel and letters.So if I may, where does this differ from Trinitarian doctrine?
New International VersionIn modern parlance, it is my throne, which you will sit in forever.
Love that hymn. Makes me long to get back to fellowship.♫Holy, holy,♫
♫Is what the angels sing,♫
♫And I expect to help them♫
♫make the courts of Heaven ring♫
♫But when I sing salvation's story♫
♫They will fold their wings♫
♫For angels never felt the joy♫
♫That our salvation brings♫
Those are from Hebrews, and Paul is quoting David...New International Version
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
New Living Translation
But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.
English Standard Version
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Berean Study Bible
But about the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Berean Literal Bible
But unto the Son: "Your throne, O God, is to the age of the age, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
King James Bible
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
New King James Version
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
New American Standard Bible
But regarding the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
NASB 1995
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
NASB 1977
But of the Son He says, “THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Amplified Bible
But about the Son [the Father says to Him], “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF [absolute] RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Christian Standard Bible
but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.
American Standard Version
but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But concerning The Son, he said, “Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities. A straight scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom.”
Contemporary English Version
But God says about his Son, "You are God, and you will rule as King forever! Your royal power brings about justice.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
English Revised Version
but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Good News Translation
About the Son, however, God said: "Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever! You rule over your people with justice.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But God said about his Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter in your kingdom is a scepter for justice.
International Standard Version
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.
Literal Standard Version
but to the Son: “Your throne, O God, [is] agelong and continuous; A scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of Your kingdom;
NET Bible
but of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
New Heart English Bible
But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom.
Weymouth New Testament
But of His Son, He says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and for ever, and the sceptre of Thy Kingdom is a sceptre of absolute justice.
World English Bible
But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.
Young's Literal Translation
and unto the Son: 'Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;