Christianity Is Based On Philosophy

[Fire-7]

I have been thinking about something for a while.

When you take a philosophy course in college, one of the main subjects that you study is the bible. yet, 9/10, no one there believes that the bbible is true. It's just a book that gives your brain an entertaining exercise--mental acrobatics.

I have also been listening to preachers from as early as I can remember, and during my teen and adolecent years, i watch a lot of christian television. I'm a PK (oreacher's kid) myself. I am familiar with the idea of tongue talking, H-ly Ghost, fire baptised revival, alng with prophetic utterances. But if there is one thing I have taken from all of this, it is the fact that NO ONE completely agrees on anything. There is always some kind of disagreement over doctrine and theology. Everyone is hearing the voice of G-d, but G-d is teling everyone something different about the same thing. So, this makes me think that either G-d is playing mind games, or NO ONE is hearing from G-d at all (for whatever reason), or "G-d" simply doesn't exist. It's either one of the three.

While the bible states that "G-d is not the author of confusion", there sure is a lot of confusion going on within the body of Christ.

Just a thought

 

[gregg]

THE CARNAL MIND will argue with anything and everything, until we learn to walk in the spirit of love nothing will line up.

 

[[email protected]]

I have been thinking about something for a while.

When you take a philosophy course in college, one of the main subjects that you study is the bible. yet, 9/10, no one there believes that the bbible is true. It's just a book that gives your brain an entertaining exercise--mental acrobatics.

I have also been listening to preachers from as early as I can remember, and during my teen and adolecent years, i watch a lot of christian television. I'm a PK (oreacher's kid) myself. I am familiar with the idea of tongue talking, H-ly Ghost, fire baptised revival, alng with prophetic utterances. But if there is one thing I have taken from all of this, it is the fact that NO ONE completely agrees on anything. There is always some kind of disagreement over doctrine and theology. Everyone is hearing the voice of G-d, but G-d is teling everyone something different about the same thing. So, this makes me think that either G-d is playing mind games, or NO ONE is hearing from G-d at all (for whatever reason), or "G-d" simply doesn't exist. It's either one of the three.

While the bible states that "G-d is not the author of confusion", there sure is a lot of confusion going on within the body of Christ.

Just a thought

You are obviously opposed to the willingness of the faithful to share their lives in Christ with one another. That is your perogative as well as ours.

College philosophy courses are designed to expose students to religious themes, not theology and certainly not to persuade OR TO TEACH MORAL BEHAVIOR.

MORALS or true spirituality is NOT ALLOWED to be taught in college.

If a student feels that he is being evangelized by an instructor in a college course, he can have the instructor disciplined. He might even be able to initiate litigation against the institution.

On the other hand, an instructor across the hall is allowed to teach students that the laws of physics have an effect upon each student personally. A math professor may teach that 1+1=2. The instructions may not be opposed by any student nor may any law suit be engaged against them, yet religion and morality IS subject to legal action.

The problem man, is not in our heads IT'S IN OUR HEARTS. I perceive that yours is filled with bitterness and rebellion. If so, it will be years before you find any peace - if ever. You have my sympathies.

Your only hope is the same as any man's hope. Repentance.

 

[Thankful 1]

I have been thinking about something for a while.

When you take a philosophy course in college, one of the main subjects that you study is the bible. yet, 9/10, no one there believes that the bbible is true. It's just a book that gives your brain an entertaining exercise--mental acrobatics.

I have also been listening to preachers from as early as I can remember, and during my teen and adolecent years, i watch a lot of christian television. I'm a PK (oreacher's kid) myself. I am familiar with the idea of tongue talking, H-ly Ghost, fire baptised revival, alng with prophetic utterances. But if there is one thing I have taken from all of this, it is the fact that NO ONE completely agrees on anything. There is always some kind of disagreement over doctrine and theology. Everyone is hearing the voice of G-d, but G-d is teling everyone something different about the same thing. So, this makes me think that either G-d is playing mind games, or NO ONE is hearing from G-d at all (for whatever reason), or "G-d" simply doesn't exist. It's either one of the three.

While the bible states that "G-d is not the author of confusion", there sure is a lot of confusion going on within the body of Christ.

Just a thought

First you will never know the truth, unless Jesus personally tellsyou. Ask Jesus to call you by name,teach and guide you.



Next does a first grade student get the same answer as a post gradstudent gets form an instructor? Peopledon’t necessarily receive form God the same answer to any one question. Everyone can be at a different place in hisor her walk with God.



People keep insisting leaning about God from people when that can’t bedone.



(1 Corinthians 2:13-14)“Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in theway that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does notaccept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyondhis understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”



(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, andyou do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches youeverything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you,so you must stay in him.”

 

[Fire-7]

You are obviously opposed to the willingness of the faithful to share their lives in Christ with one another. That is your perogative as well as ours.

College philosophy courses are designed to expose students to religious themes, not theology and certainly not to persuade OR TO TEACH MORAL BEHAVIOR.

MORALS or true spirituality is NOT ALLOWED to be taught in college.

If a student feels that he is being evangelized by an instructor in a college course, he can have the instructor disciplined. He might even be able to initiate litigation against the institution.

On the other hand, an instructor across the hall is allowed to teach students that the laws of physics have an effect upon each student personally. A math professor may teach that 1+1=2. The instructions may not be opposed by any student nor may any law suit be engaged against them, yet religion and morality IS subject to legal action.

The problem man, is not in our heads IT'S IN OUR HEARTS. I perceive that yours is filled with bitterness and rebellion. If so, it will be years before you find any peace - if ever. You have my sympathies.

Your only hope is the same as any man's hope. Repentance.

What I am opposed to is Christians, who claim to have the SPIRIT OF TRUTH working through them, arguing and fighting over what the truth is, when there should only be one truth. I am opposed to Christians perpetuating confusion, when "God is not the author of confusion". I am opposed to politics within the body of Christ. I am opposed to people being turned away and turned off by the church when they come seeking after God and only the true God, but find poor representatives of Him.

 

[HammerStone]

Well, here is a thought I wrestle with when it comes to philosophy.

We are attempting to use the rules of creation to define the creator. In other words, God created this world to function in a certain manner. That includes the logic of this world which would clearly place it below the threshold of creator. There are a bunch of arguments that seek to disprove God, but they fall short in the impossible task of proving a negative. I look at works of art for an example - you can look at a work and see the emotion or characteristics of an artist, but you'll never know everything about them and may even struggle with the basic intent. God created all from nothing which goes well beyond that metaphor.

On top of that, they [the arguments] also tend to get mired down in religion.

I agree wholeheartedly that there are a lot of voices - too many voices - claiming to be influenced by God. One of the things about Father is that when he speaks, you know it. God's not going to stoop down to tell you where to park a car or something like that. You'll find that people like to speak for God, because it gives them authority. I also think sometimes the problem is with the receiver. The old enemy is tricky, but sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

It's like some of the members here recently that have had spats. Doctrinally, I often agree with them. However, how you handle disagreement later on tells me more than anything.

I think too many Christians suffer from God told me this one thing so everything else I know is right mentality. (Luke 12:48) Remember by the talents that certain people get more and certain people get less. There is no problem with standing up where God convicts you too, but typically Christians tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater on doctrinal issues. It's like Mark Driscoll pointed out in his book, Vintage Church. There are certain core issues - IE: Christ - where we should agree. There are other issues where we can disagree. We don't have to compromise our beliefs, but we have to realize sometimes we're using words to define the being that set everything into motion. God's larger than words.

 

[Angelina]

What I am opposed to is Christians, who claim to have the SPIRIT OF TRUTH working through them, arguing and fighting over what the truth is, when there should only be one truth. I am opposed to Christians perpetuating confusion, when "God is not the author of confusion". I am opposed to politics within the body of Christ. I am opposed to people being turned away and turned off by the church when they come seeking after God and only the true God, but find poor representatives of Him.

I agree with you brother!
Some folk tend to camp around certain doctrines but fundamental beliefs in relation to salvation should always be the same.

Romans 10:8-10
[sup]8[/sup] But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[sup]][/sup](that is, the word of faith which we preach): [sup]9[/sup] that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [sup]10[/sup] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

My old Home Group leader used to say that each person can get a revelation of truth from the word, viewed from different perspectives, because it is like touching various parts of the same elephant. Each person can describe that elephant based on what they are touching at the time. Different parts, same elephant.

I believe that God gives revelation of his word, depending on where believers are spiritually and each believer is at various stages of growth. No-one has the whole truth because the bible states that we know only in part...one day, we shall know fully.

1 Corinthians
[sup]12[/sup] For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

I hope this helps...Bless you!

 

[Thankful 1]

Well, here is a thought I wrestle with when it comes to philosophy.

We are attempting to use the rules of creation to define the creator. In other words, God created this world to function in a certain manner. That includes the logic of this world which would clearly place it below the threshold of creator. There are a bunch of arguments that seek to disprove God, but they fall short in the impossible task of proving a negative. I look at works of art for an example - you can look at a work and see the emotion or characteristics of an artist, but you'll never know everything about them and may even struggle with the basic intent. God created all from nothing which goes well beyond that metaphor.

On top of that, they [the arguments] also tend to get mired down in religion.

I agree wholeheartedly that there are a lot of voices - too many voices - claiming to be influenced by God. One of the things about Father is that when he speaks, you know it. God's not going to stoop down to tell you where to park a car or something like that. You'll find that people like to speak for God, because it gives them authority. I also think sometimes the problem is with the receiver. The old enemy is tricky, but sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

It's like some of the members here recently that have had spats. Doctrinally, I often agree with them. However, how you handle disagreement later on tells me more than anything.

I think too many Christians suffer from God told me this one thing so everything else I know is right mentality. (Luke 12:48) Remember by the talents that certain people get more and certain people get less. There is no problem with standing up where God convicts you too, but typically Christians tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater on doctrinal issues. It's like Mark Driscoll pointed out in his book, Vintage Church. There are certain core issues - IE: Christ - where we should agree. There are other issues where we can disagree. We don't have to compromise our beliefs, but we have to realize sometimes we're using words to define the being that set everything into motion. God's larger than words.

(1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore weteach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that theSpirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does notaccept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyondhis understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

 

[rockytopva]

Philosophy...

Here are some quotations from Plutarch

(1)Philosophy is a longing after the heavenly wisdom.
(2)The worship most acceptable to God comes from a cheerful and thankful heart.
(3)The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled.
(4) A just and good man is not capable of being dishonored.
(5) It use to be said that the man who struck his wife or son laid his hands on that what was most sacred.

I love philosophy pertaining to spiritual light... So my favorite is Pluto...

*(1)He who lives well is blessed and happy.
*(2) The soul of man is immortal and imperishable.
*(3) It is my opinion that learning brings danger to youth. (1Cor.8:1- Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.)
*(4) It is experience that causes our life to move forward by the skills we acquire, while the want of experience subjects us to the effects of chance.
* (5)The virtue that is in us comes not from nature, nor is it taught, but it is put in us by the divinity.
* (6) Unless the foundations of a family be properly prepared and laid, those who are sprung from it must be necessarily unfortunate.
*(7) Wonder is the feeling of a philosopher; and philosophy begins with wonder.
*(8) He whom love touches not walks in darkness.
*(9) As empty vessels make the loudest sounds, so they that have the least wit are the greatest blabbers.
* (10) Virtue is a kind of health, beauty, and good habit of the soul.

And Marcus Aurilious

(1)*The true worth of a man is to be measured by the objects he pursues.
(2) *From Rusticus I received the impression that my character required improvement and discipline-
(3) *Every man's life lies within the present; for the past is spent and done with, and the future is uncertain.
(4) A mans worth is no greater than his ambitions.
(5) In the morning let this thought be present: I am rising to a man's work.
(6)Be satisfied with your business, and learn to love what you were bred to do.
(7) *Our life is what our thoughts make it.
(8) * To live happy is an inward power of the soul
(9) *The one thing worth living for is to keep one's soul pure.

Which is why I believe Greece and Rome took to Christianity... It was a confirmation of earlier philosophies. As for me I love philosophy and have studied it as well as my Bible.

 

[Fire-7]

THE CARNAL MIND will argue with anything and everything, until we learn to walk in the spirit of love nothing will line up.

This makes sense.

 

[rockytopva]

"The Omnipotent Father, with his thunder made Olympus to tremble."

In which as I love philosophy I must reiterate the superiority of the word of God and of the Heavenly Father

There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.- Proverbs 21:30

(1) *The Omnipotent Father, with his thunder made Olympus to tremble.
(2) *Either do not attempt at all, or go through with it.
(3) My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope.
(3) There is no excellency without difficulty.
(4) * If you count the sunny and the cloudy days of a whole year, you will find that the sunny days predominate.
(5) *All men's gains are the fruits of venturing.
(6) "Both fortune and love befriend the bold." –Ovid

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Such a deep subject. (I continue to post despite being sleepy, please forgive me if I ramble)

One point I'd like to talk about is the arguing.

It happens alot, from denomination, to denomination, person to person. Realize one thing, none of us are perfect. We are all in a different part of our relationship with the Lord, and are still developing a relationship with eachother.

How difficult is it to follow a "religion" that requires you to love everyone, when our own nature is destructive and hateful?

Manytimes I learn from "arguing" with people. Some people are so blatantly wrong sometimes It's only right that they be rebuked or called out. I believe we all see things differently, and the Lord explains things differently to each and everyone of us. We're individuals, and the Lord treats us as such.

Manytimes, people "jump the gun" so to speak and think they understand something but don't, and will argue until they're blue in the face. There's also "wolves in sheeps clothing". The Bible warns us that some will creep in and spread heresey. On top of that we have other spirits trying to confuse us.

There's so many variances, and thus so many different results.

However, that's what we see on the surface. We we see is mans inability to communicate and understand. If you look close, most of the conversations are one person misunderstanding where the other is comming from.


If you look deeper, you'll see that there is a genuine love in the hearts of most believers. While we may argue and bicker, and debate,,,,,,, We still see that we're part of the same family, and many of the arguments are out of genuine love and concern for the part that we feel are misunderstood.

Also, if you look at what the arguments are about,,,, Rapture, gifts of the Spirit, Laws of Moses, from the 10 commandments, all the way to dietary, and even as simple as tithes or the Sabbath........... Mostly they're just one persons view of what God expects. To be honest, God may demand some to follow the Law of Moses for a reason and for a time, while God allows another to disregard the whole thing. It's mostly views on honoring God.

Unfortunately, (and specifically in the US) there is an inate desire for one person to control another, and a preference that someone agree, giving afirmation that they're correct in their views. That's the American way, many of us insist that others behave and think just the way we do.

Being a Christian has so many dynamics that it could hardly be understood by an outsider. Much like a single child doesn't understand sibling rivalry, or the bond between brothers and sisters even at a time when they seem to hate eachother.

Do you remember the Tower of Babel? God destroyed it because the people were one, they were in full agreement, and were well on their way to not "needing" God. I believe most of the bickering is allowed to happen so we'll seek God. It also helps us to learn to resolve conflicts, to become patient, and understanding, and to consider other points of view. It's a honing tool.

Rest assured, aside from a very select few, All of us believers don't hesitate to join another in prayer, or to help another in need where we can.

You can't just look at a surface imperfection, you have to look at the heart of the matter.

 

[rockytopva]

It happens alot, from denomination, to denomination, person to person. Realize one thing, none of us are perfect. We are all in a different part of our relationship with the Lord, and are still developing a relationship with eachother.

How difficult is it to follow a "religion" that requires you to love everyone, when our own nature is destructive and hateful?

Manytimes I learn from "arguing" with people. Some people are so blatantly wrong sometimes It's only right that they be rebuked or called out. I believe we all see things differently, and the Lord explains things differently to each and everyone of us. We're individuals, and the Lord treats us as such.

Manytimes, people "jump the gun" so to speak and think they understand something but don't, and will argue until they're blue in the face. There's also "wolves in sheeps clothing". The Bible warns us that some will creep in and spread heresey. On top of that we have other spirits trying to confuse us.

Keep in mind there are seven churches making up the one church...

1. Ephesus - Apostolic - Scripture still before us!.
2. Smyrna - Martyr - 10 days = 10 general Roman persecutions.
3. Pergomos - Orthodox - The beginning of what we know as dogma
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Too much dogma!
5. Sardis - Protestant - John Calvin - Even more dogma
6. Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal - Saved / Sanctified / Filled with the Holy Ghost!
***Is revival unique to the Philadelphian church age???*** Was this the revival of the last days? Thankfully not as much dogma
7. Laodicea - Materialistic / Charistmatic / Independent -Very little dogma

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=b7rTb4BJQsg

If you read the old testament you will find that there were few perfect folks in the old covenant.Same with the churches! As humans we tend to sully things up!

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. - 2 Tim 2:20

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. - 2 Tim 2:21

 

[[email protected]]

What I am opposed to is Christians, who claim to have the SPIRIT OF TRUTH working through them, arguing and fighting over what the truth is, when there should only be one truth. I am opposed to Christians perpetuating confusion, when "God is not the author of confusion". I am opposed to politics within the body of Christ. I am opposed to people being turned away and turned off by the church when they come seeking after God and only the true God, but find poor representatives of Him.

Christians are, after all, human. What do you expect?
The Spirit of Truth does indeed work through Christians, but most of the time it works UPON THEM. The necessity for that is obvious as you have pointed out.

Why do Christians bicker?
First is that each man's perception is finite. No man knows all the answers, even in his own life - forget about the next man's.
Second is that each man has a unique point of view regarding his experience and the things he's been taught.

Politics in church? Well now, there's a can of worms to examine.
Christians are called to love one another, but in practice that's real hard to do especially when we feel we must hang on tightly, yes VERY tightly to our convictions.

Two factors enter into this dynamic to allow most situations to progress to completion.
First is the practice of compromise wherein parties in a disagreement accept a solution which is not completely acceptable to either side.
Second is the law of 20's and 80's, wherein twenty percent of the group do eighty percent of the work.
It isn't pretty, but it works.

You wrote:
"I am opposed to people being turned away and turned off by the church when they come seeking after God and only the true God, but find poor representatives of Him"

God isn't found in church. Not visibly, anyway.
Church is an assembly of like minded Christians. Forget all the high minded ideals you've been taught.
Church is a glorified support group for spiritual people. As with any support group, you're going to find dysfunctional people attending the party. God will deal with them, that is our hope. He will also deal with our own fallabilities and He WILL deal with yours.

Somebody said that you're not going to find a perfect church and that if you do you shouldn't join it because you'd spoil it.
There may not be a perfect church, but I'll bet you dimes to doenuts that you'll find some grand people in most any one you attend for any length of time.

Finally, there is an old axiom that has always been true.

If you want to HAVE a friend, you've got to BE a friend.

Like all things, it starts in one's own heart. Don't worry about the sliver in your neighbor's eye until you pull the log out of your own.

 

[aspen]

Arguing over doctrine and Christian cultural issues reminds me of when couples argue about things that seem important at the time, but are really distractions from doing the hard emotional word of being married - compromise, charity, and sacrifice. Christians who argue over doctrine are correct - doctrine is important, but not when it gets in the way of practicing our sanctification in our relationship with Christ by loving one another. Couples are right too - toilet paper is important, but does it really matter which side it turns on? Or is it a matter of trying to assert your will?

If we are not secure enough in our understanding or belief the doctrine that Christ has provided for us, we are not able to allow others to disagree with our understanding without defending our point of view - as if God needs a defense! To many Christians, the Bible has become an idol - a transitional object - a teddy bear, representing God - used to comfort and remind them that if the memorize as many verses as possible they will feel secure because they will be "right." People with this mentality are viewed by others as arrogant and childish because they are clinging to their "blankie" and when ever they become fearful, they shake it like a Magic 8-Ball and come up with the perfect verse to thwart the enemy! I know this sounds harsh, but it is truth - you can chalk it all up to Dawkins and Hitchins not having the Spirit of God (true), but it does not mean they are blind to ineffective Christian behavior. This brings up another point, when nonbelievers talk about Christians using Christianity as a "crutch" and we cannot understand why they would think of us behaving that way - they are thinking of Christians who misuse the Bible, as described above.

Unfortunately, somewhere down the line in church history, we became more concerned about being "right" and "convinced" about the truth of doctrine, rather than using it to assist our sanctification. Believe me, I have been to enough Bible studies of the years to see this theory in action - a couple of verses are read and then everyone takes turns talking about how much they believe the scriptures - it turns into a pep rally for Jesus - and any attempt to discuss the application of the scriptures - "how is this truth helping you love?" is viewed as a real downer. People often mistake sanctification with being convinced of an idea, when it is actually the process of learning how to love through sacrifice and service to our neighbors, learning perspective taking skills, developing empathy, and loving unconditionally.

So when I listen to God or His Spirit, I am not listening for Him to convince me of the truth He has already laid out - nor am I looking for Him to tell me what to do next; I know what I am supposed to be doing - His will for me is clear - I am called to love in all circumstances and I rely on Him to teach me, encourage me and comfort me so I can keep doing His will. Getting caught up in the mechanics of life - as if it was a "choose your own adventure" tale where there's one right path and 900 million wrong paths and praying to find out if tying your shoe at this moment is the right thing to do or should you wait?!?!?! is a tortuous way to live your life, while missing the point entirely.

blessings

 

[Fire-7]

"The Omnipotent Father, with his thunder made Olympus to tremble."

In which as I love philosophy I must reiterate the superiority of the word of God and of the Heavenly Father

There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.- Proverbs 21:30

(1) *The Omnipotent Father, with his thunder made Olympus to tremble.
(2) *Either do not attempt at all, or go through with it.
(3) My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope.
(3) There is no excellency without difficulty.
(4) * If you count the sunny and the cloudy days of a whole year, you will find that the sunny days predominate.
(5) *All men's gains are the fruits of venturing.
(6) "Both fortune and love befriend the bold." –Ovid

Could you possibly clarify this? I'm not sure I understand what this means?

 

[Joshua David]

I think there are two major faults of most Christians. One the inability or unwillingness to really challenge what we have been taught and what we believe to be true, and two, the inability or unwillingness to admit our own fallibility. Please do not misunderstand me, I believe in the infallibility of God's word. I believe that God's word is totally one hundred percent true and accurate. I, on the other hand, am not. I am completely fallible. I can make mistakes, and have made mistakes, and yes this includes what I believed about God's word. I believe what I believe, because I believe it to be true, and I can and will defend those beliefs with a passion that is grown from my love of the Word of God.

But much too often, my heart gets sick to read some of the responses from my brothers and sisters. All too often, we fail to see that there is a huge difference in 1) disagreeing with someone and 2) telling them that they are wrong. The problem is that most Christians won't stop at just telling the other person that they are wrong, they judge their brother's or sister's intelligence, their scholarship, their faith, and their walk with God, all because they had the audacity to reach a different conclusion when it came to the Word of God. This shows nothing but pride and hubris. Pride in ourselves, in our own intelligence, in our 'walk with God', in the fact that 'God told me this'. I personally believe that if your 'walk with God' was so much greater than mine, wouldn't your spirit show it? Instead of a spirit of pride, wouldn't you have a spirit of humbleness, and respect?

There are many Christians that I have disagreed with, on this site, as well as a few others, but I could count the number of times that I have blatantly told someone that they were wrong on one hand, and still have enough fingers to pick something up. And just for clarification, the one person that I can specifically remember was claiming that Jesus Christ had already returned and was living and preaching in Korea. That kinda gives you an idea of how far someone would have to go before I condemn them for being wrong.

I am not saying that we should say that all views are equally true, and should be accepted as such, that is just nonsense. But is it so wrong to expect Christians to treat each other in a spirit of humbleness, love and respect?

Joshua David

 

[Fire-7]

Christians are, after all, human. What do you expect?
The Spirit of Truth does indeed work through Christians, but most of the time it works UPON THEM. The necessity for that is obvious as you have pointed out.

Why do Christians bicker?
First is that each man's perception is finite. No man knows all the answers, even in his own life - forget about the next man's.
Second is that each man has a unique point of view regarding his experience and the things he's been taught.

Politics in church? Well now, there's a can of worms to examine.
Christians are called to love one another, but in practice that's real hard to do especially when we feel we must hang on tightly, yes VERY tightly to our convictions.

Two factors enter into this dynamic to allow most situations to progress to completion.
First is the practice of compromise wherein parties in a disagreement accept a solution which is not completely acceptable to either side.
Second is the law of 20's and 80's, wherein twenty percent of the group do eighty percent of the work.
It isn't pretty, but it works.

You wrote:
"I am opposed to people being turned away and turned off by the church when they come seeking after God and only the true God, but find poor representatives of Him"

God isn't found in church. Not visibly, anyway.
Church is an assembly of like minded Christians. Forget all the high minded ideals you've been taught.
Church is a glorified support group for spiritual people. As with any support group, you're going to find dysfunctional people attending the party. God will deal with them, that is our hope. He will also deal with our own fallabilities and He WILL deal with yours.

Somebody said that you're not going to find a perfect church and that if you do you shouldn't join it because you'd spoil it.
There may not be a perfect church, but I'll bet you dimes to doenuts that you'll find some grand people in most any one you attend for any length of time.

Finally, there is an old axiom that has always been true.

If you want to HAVE a friend, you've got to BE a friend.

Like all things, it starts in one's own heart. Don't worry about the sliver in your neighbor's eye until you pull the log out of your own.

I agree with your synopsis, for the most part. And I will probably come back and reread it and get better understanding.

However, I also think that your first statement, "Christians are, afterall, human What do you expect?", sums up the problem within the body of Christ. I'm not saying this applies to you, but in general, it is a lackadasical, complacent attitude. It's the old "I'm only human" cop out. You may not see it as such, but a murderer or rapist can live by the same philosophy and say "I'm human, what do you expect"--maybe extreme but no different. Maybe the problem is that we tolerate compromise. Christians say that the purpose of christians is to to be like Jesus--follow His pattern--become Him on the earth, in living a life of "sold-out" obedience. But Jesus stated that He only did what He saw His Father do. And the thing that empowered Him to walk in that power/level of obedience was the Spirit which decended upon Him at His baptism--the "same spirit" which fell upon the disciples and church fathers/mothers in the upper room...which is the same quickening H-ly Spirit which Christians claim to be baptized in. So why is it that "H-ly Ghost" filled Christians don'twalk in the same level of obedience and bare the same fruit/works that Jesus declared would even be greater than His?

 

[HammerStone]

However, I also think that your first statement, "Christians are, afterall, human What do you expect?", sums up the problem within the body of Christ. I'm not saying this applies to you, but in general, it is a lackadasical, complacent attitude. It's the old "I'm only human" cop out. You may not see it as such, but a murderer or rapist can live by the same philosophy and say "I'm human, what do you expect"--maybe extreme but no different. Maybe the problem is that we tolerate compromise. Christians say that the purpose of christians is to to be like Jesus--follow His pattern--become Him on the earth, in living a life of "sold-out" obedience. But Jesus stated that He only did what He saw His Father do. And the thing that empowered Him to walk in that power/level of obedience was the Spirit which decended upon Him at His baptism--the "same spirit" which fell upon the disciples and church fathers/mothers in the upper room...which is the same quickening H-ly Spirit which Christians claim to be baptized in. So why is it that "H-ly Ghost" filled Christians don'twalk in the same level of obedience and bare the same fruit/works that Jesus declared would even be greater than His?

This is not a commentary on RJP at all, but running with this thought in general - maybe it's a lack of discernment that leads to compromise? I often feel like Christians compromise on the issues that don't make sense yet are willing to duke it out over issues like Bible versions and music styles.

I think we seek to commonly define God on our terms in our own world.

I Corinthians 1:19-25
For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart." Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

This verse hit me one day - ironically to this topic - in a Philosophy class as well talked about Descartes. I watched these perfectly smart liberalized students make arguments against God or in terms of things like anarchy with a smile on their face. Yet the whole time my thought is that how can you use a created thing to define a Creator? That alone does not make logical sense, yet if I voiced that thought, well, I'm a religious fanatic or whatnot. It's why a God-given ray of light can make sense sometimes even after staring at the same verse for years. I'm in agreement we need more Acts 2 and beyond. Greater things. Either it's true or we fall flat on our faces with a false God.

 

[Fire-7]

I think there are two major faults of most Christians. One the inability or unwillingness to really challenge what we have been taught and what we believe to be true, and two, the inability or unwillingness to admit our own fallibility. Please do not misunderstand me, I believe in the infallibility of God's word. I believe that God's word is totally one hundred percent true and accurate. I, on the other hand, am not. I am completely fallible. I can make mistakes, and have made mistakes, and yes this includes what I believed about God's word. I believe what I believe, because I believe it to be true, and I can and will defend those beliefs with a passion that is grown from my love of the Word of God.

But much too often, my heart gets sick to read some of the responses from my brothers and sisters. All too often, we fail to see that there is a huge difference in 1) disagreeing with someone and 2) telling them that they are wrong. The problem is that most Christians won't stop at just telling the other person that they are wrong, they judge their brother's or sister's intelligence, their scholarship, their faith, and their walk with God, all because they had the audacity to reach a different conclusion when it came to the Word of God. This shows nothing but pride and hubris. Pride in ourselves, in our own intelligence, in our 'walk with God', in the fact that 'God told me this'. I personally believe that if your 'walk with God' was so much greater than mine, wouldn't your spirit show it? Instead of a spirit of pride, wouldn't you have a spirit of humbleness, and respect?

There are many Christians that I have disagreed with, on this site, as well as a few others, but I could count the number of times that I have blatantly told someone that they were wrong on one hand, and still have enough fingers to pick something up. And just for clarification, the one person that I can specifically remember was claiming that Jesus Christ had already returned and was living and preaching in Korea. That kinda gives you an idea of how far someone would have to go before I condemn them for being wrong.

I am not saying that we should say that all views are equally true, and should be accepted as such, that is just nonsense. But is it so wrong to expect Christians to treat each other in a spirit of humbleness, love and respect?

Joshua David

You have expressed this very well! I couldn't have said it better myself. As a matter of fact, I have been saying similar lately. It's like the people who are "prayer warriors" but are meaner than a rattlesnake--more like war-mongers. I thought that prayer was supposed to make you look more like G-d, not make you look more like the enemy...which is why I'm suspicious of some prayer and worship methods. I feel that if it doesn't get you closer to G-d then it's not working.

We seem to have the art from down to a science on a lot of things that we do in religion, but missing some technicalities. It's like the church institution has been built on an incomplete foundation. It seems that we are needing to start from scratch and reexamine our belief system(s), until we aquire consistency and become the stable church that will usher in the King, who said He was returning for a bride without spot or wrinkle.

This is not a commentary on RJP at all, but running with this thought in general - maybe it's a lack of discernment that leads to compromise? I often feel like Christians compromise on the issues that don't make sense yet are willing to duke it out over issues like Bible versions and music styles.

I think we seek to commonly define God on our terms in our own world.



This verse hit me one day - ironically to this topic - in a Philosophy class as well talked about Descartes. I watched these perfectly smart liberalized students make arguments against God or in terms of things like anarchy with a smile on their face. Yet the whole time my thought is that how can you use a created thing to define a Creator? That alone does not make logical sense, yet if I voiced that thought, well, I'm a religious fanatic or whatnot. It's why a God-given ray of light can make sense sometimes even after staring at the same verse for years. I'm in agreement we need more Acts 2 and beyond. Greater things. Either it's true or we fall flat on our faces with a false God.

What is "RJP"?