Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.
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2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
So tell us if you know...what is the doctrine of Christ.
it is not written in the bible...so you will not be able to quote
someone else's words.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?" Rom. 8:29-35
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Really? You failed to recognize the the doctrine of Christ in the Bible?
The whole Bible is the doctrine of Christ, He is the WORD.
Start with simple terminology. Doctrine means teaching. Even if you haven't come to the point in your understanding that He is the AUTHOR, AT LEAST you could grasp that the words He spoke were His teachings. Once you are born again, you will grow to understand that He is God and the Author, the Creator, the WORD who became flesh and dwelt among us.
Of course you would need to be predestined for that, then called, the forgiven, transformed/born again, sanctifjed, justified and someday glorified.
Well they were pretty close on Calvinist election doctrine, which is that man is totally depraved and so spiritually dead, that he can’t respond to or believe the gospel, until God regenerates him first,makes him alive, and then he believes.
The problem with their doctrine is, it’s bottom line is backwards.
Scripture is crystal clear that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, aka belief, so faith precedes grace and thus comes before salvation - but Calvinists are forced to claim that grace, and thus salvation precedes faith - which is exactly backwards, and thus is diametrically opposed to scriptural salvation.
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The context is the requirement to believe Jesus is the son of God, and those who reject that God has a son, and His son is Jesus, have neither father or son.
Cooper
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Cooper
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Ronald David Bruno
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Does God change His mind?
If He gives the gift of eternal life to a person, given His omniscient ability to know the future, knowing all about the person, his future, his flaws, his works, all the way to his death, He has made that decision, to save that person, before they were born. He does not change His mind. No one can snatch us out of His hand, separate us from His love - not even us. We cannot mess up His plan for us. He factors all our failures into His perfect plan.
Jesus gives us the Parable of the Sower. Only those whose see that has been planted in fertile soil make it into heaven? The others never really were saved from the beginning. When trials came they withered and died. They also didn't produce fruit.
My father believed in God as a young boy, a shallow, immature belief but it was a start until his Dad got sick with a deadly disease, TB. No cure back then. My father @ 10 years old, got down on his knees and prayed to God to save his Dad's life. God said no. What happened? Well my Dad, got angry, confused, disillusioned and list his faith - claimed there wasn't a God _ for almost his entire life. One would think his seed was planted in shallow soil, he fell away and that was the end of him. But God held him in hand and moved him along through life. He lived by Biblical principles taught to him by his parents.
He taught my brother and I the Golden Rule and that it is better to give then receive, what is good and what was evil. He was a gentleman, meek, polite, respectful, had a strong work ethic, integrity, self control, patience, etc. You would think by His life and character, he was a mature practicing Christian ... until he said he wasn't. But he showed fruit, was humble and a loving man. Go figure.
The funny thing is, believing in the TOE, he thought these good principles he practiced evolved from civilization, that man just figured them out. I told him no, those are in the Bible. God was working on him - unbeknownst to him - for all his life. Because God knew that a couple years before my Dad died, He would finally come full circle, get his attention and my Dad would once again get on his knees and pray and make his peace with Him.
I think he was just angry and then would say he was atheist, just to spite God. God forgave him for that and I think God held onto that special prayer of a ten year old boy. He really saved His father and mine as well in the end.
We just never know what God is doing in someone's life.
So where does all that fit into the theological mumbo jumbo? I guess some may think he was'nt saved as a boy and not till his later years? Maybe, but we know God worked with him and guided him - He was written in the Book of Life.
Not so. God does not predestine some to heaven, and predestine the majority of mankind to hell.
God predestined the plan of salvation from before the founding of the world, that whosoever will may come - he didn’t arbitrarily decide who will come, and who He makes it impossible to come.
And as Jesus said, some believe only for a while, then fall away.
And the prodigal son was dead in his sins until he returned in repentance, and was alive again.
There’s no OSAS in scripture.
Shalom Aleichem
I agree, so I applied the term to those that have a rabid aversion to anything that even suggests that one of the Doctrines of Grace from Reformation Theology might be supported by scripture … threatening their hyper-nomian semi-Pelegian synergystic salvation “golden calf”. Thus they immediately respond, Pavlovian style, with “Your ways are not fair” and false charges that the D.O.G. teach Christian hedonism.
… tell it to Charles Spurgeon.
Ummm … JESUS started that ‘ugly rumor’ that those who believe have “eternal life”. We just thought that Jesus really meant we were saved forever (unlike our ‘work hard or God will drop you like a hot potato’ brothern).
You should read what the doctrine actually teaches before you refute it. You are “missing the mark” on Total Depravity.
Are you able to destroy both soul and body in hell?
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28
Indeed it is forever as long as you believe. I realize we are not going to agree. I find that the word of God is full of warnings for the believer. No warnings would be necessary if you were secure in your eternal salvation. It seems that many like yourself view continued "belief" "love of God" "loving your neighbor" "confession of sins" as selfish works to earn your salvation. I do not think matters of the heart and soul, our change of mind and heart are works. I would agree that those who think we must do physical works to earn salvation are wrong thinking. Christians are compelled to do things for the Glory of God but they are not collecting salvation merits but rewards in Heaven.
The scriptures warn us over and over again to be aware of Satans deceptions, false prophets and teachers. If OSAS was true then those warnings would not be necessary.
So salvation is then based upon what a person does and not upon what God has done! That would totally undermine the Gospel, would it not? That would totally undermine John 3:16. So let's modify that verse to fit your concept of salvation:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him -- AND DOES NOT STOP BELIEVING -- should not perish, but have everlasting life.
So the question still remains. Why would any rational human being believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for his or her salvation, and then stop believing that He is the Savior, and that He has given the gift of eternal life to the one who has believed on Him? That would be plainly stupid would it not?
It would be stupid but we all know that humans have a leaning towards stupidity. In fact we are flawed in many ways. John 3:16 the word believeth in greek can be defined as "Obey" "commit". We all know that even Satan believeth in him. Our problem is largely the fact that we are rational human beings. Some have rationalized salvation to such a low bar that you, Satan and others who only "believeth" are good to go. I just do not see it that way. I do agree that those who believe and continue to believe "finish the race" and follow Jesus's own words of loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself, not falling to deception of false prophets and teachers are eternally secure in their salvation. Continued belief and following Gods commands are not works.
DANGER! Get back ... phew ... you almost took a step towards "total depravity" and the idea that men need to be saved by God because we are broken. :cool:
Don't worry little Arminian, this Calvinist has your back. ;)
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