new version of OSAS?

[Cooper]

WELL I am not talking....about...Baptism in that light.......nor 4 that purpose.....what I was tipping off to was.....what baptism is said to mean......In my opinion....people take on Baptism after they believed a certain teaching....also Baptism has different meanings.....depending one the context.
As I believe the so called "great commission "
I do not believe that is referring to water there. The Baptism in the red sea...the Israelites never got touched by the water...
Anyway...just some thoughts...I am studying.

You are studying well if I may say. Just let me add that water baptism is a statement of our faith and a public confession that we are told to make. Blessings to you.

I found this about Jewish baptism, and we know John the Baptist was baptising before Christ began his ministry, so I assume baptism was already being practised? Possibly Jewish baptism was a ritual physical cleansing?

An ancient Mikveh (bath used for ritual immersion in Judaism) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem

Although the term "baptism" is not used to describe the Jewish rituals, the purification rites in Halakha Jewish law and tradition, called tvilah, have some similarity to baptism, and the two have been linked.

The tvilah is the act of immersion in natural sourced water, called a mikva. In the Jewish Bible and other Jewish texts, immersion in water for ritual purification was established for restoration to a condition of "ritual purity" in specific circumstances. For example, Jews who (according to the Law of Moses) became ritually defiled by contact with a corpse had to use the mikvah before being allowed to participate in the Holy Temple. Immersion is required for converts to Judaism.

Immersion in the mikvah represents a change in status in regard to purification, restoration, and qualification for full religious participation in the life of the community, ensuring that the cleansed person will not impose uncleanness on property or its owners.

It did not become customary, however, to immerse converts to Judaism until after the Babylonian Captivity. This change of status by the mikvah could be obtained repeatedly, while Christian baptism, like circumcision, is, in the general view of Christians, unique and not repeatable. Even the so-called rebaptism by some Christian denominations is not seen by them as a repetition of an earlier valid baptism and is viewed by them as not itself repeatable.

During the Second Temple period the Greek noun baptmos was used to refer to ritual washing in Hellenistic Judaism.

History of baptism - Wikipedia

 

[Cooper]

Sometimes what strangles and holds people is that we are in bondage of our ideals.
Therefore those Ideals have to be broken down.

Which is a point I am making here.....
Somethings have been passed down...that have never been examined, and have even been taken out of context....

Therefore many churches make converts but not disciples.

But interesting How Jesus says: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matthew 28:19

So how are they to teach?
By baptizing

I believe when there is a command to repent and believe the Gospel....when you do such you obey the command to repent and believe.

But with the father of faith...we need to go back and read....which I will do...understanding that God told Abraham to walk before Him blameless and He would make a covenant with Him.........If Abraham walked in the path of righteousness ....then...a covenant then would be made.....so doesn't that mean Abraham was obedient to the command to walk b4 God Blameless sense the Covenant was eventually made with Abraham?....therefore to believe is to obey....
It's spiritual.....

Abraham believed with intent to follow...
And that was enough...for God to count Him righteous..

The key question though...is did it say Abraham was justified so He could have heaven when He died.....? Or was He justified for things concerning the life He was then living.

Justification
A forensic term, opposed to condemnation.

As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom_5:1-10).

It proceeds on the imputing or crediting to the believer by God himself of the perfect righteousness, active and passive, of his Representative and Surety, Jesus Christ (Rom_10:3-9). Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ's righteousness (2Co_5:21; Rom_4:6-8).

The sole condition on which this righteousness is imputed or credited to the believer is faith in or on the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is called a “condition,” not because it possesses any merit, but only because it is the instrument, the only instrument by which the soul appropriates or apprehends Christ and his righteousness (Rom_1:17; Rom_3:25, Rom_3:26; Rom_4:20, Rom_4:22; Php_3:8-11; Gal_2:16).

------------------

The above is from Easton's Dictionary which I downloaded into e-Sword, an excellent free program, although some things have to be paid for. Keep studying, and God bless.
.

 

[Taken]

<<<By and Through what God Offers, Gives...
And man "chooses" to Take.>>>

Yes, man do have a choice.

Ok, on same page.

But what choice he have is only what choice is real to him.
Meaning, one could only believe or not believe the gospel when he hears the gospel.

Well sure. People of any age, any topic, choose to believe or not, knowledge/information they are aware of.

Now, when the gospel comes to him, he could only believe or not believe what he gets to understand of the gospel.

Here I disagree.
Whether the topic is Math, Cooking, Scripture, whatever....
* Knowledge is given, heard, received bit by bit.
* the Understanding of the Knowledge, comes long after one continues receiving the increase of the Knowledge.

* Scriptural (the Word of God) Knowledge is somewhat Different.
(Where as Men can speak, write, teach Lies, Opinions, Philosophies, Theories, Give you Cudos, a passing grade for your Listening and agreeing, Men ALSO, can give you their opinion, philosophy, theory of what their speaking, writing, teaching "means"...ie. the Understanding, "according to them".)

The Scriptural (Word of God) IS:
1) the Knowledge...is Absolute TRUTH.
2) every Person HEARING the Knowledge ...
IS given (from God), measures of Gods Gift of Faith.
3) every Person who continues Hearing the Knowledge of Gods Word, increases in hearing absolute Truth.
4) every Person who continues Hearing Knowledge of Gods Word, increases Receiving measures of Gods Gift of Faith.
5) Understanding?
Understanding Gods Word of Truth...
IS EXPRESSLY Given A man, FROM GOD.
6) WHAT man EXPRESSLY is Given "Gods Understanding, of Gods Knowledge, of Gods Word?
A "FAITH-FUL" man.

Here ... consider the difference of a man "WITH" Faith, A Gift from God, FOR HEARING.
A Gift of Faith that "INCREASES" as the man chooses to continue "HEARING".
(Consider...who continues Hearing, what they Believe)
OR
That man freely chooses TO STOP Hearing, STOP increasing in Faith...He is called FALLEN FROM "FAITH"...
(Consider...who Discontinues Hearing, what they DO NOT believe)
AND
A man WHO, after hearing, receiving faith, continues hearing, continues receiving faith...
AND
By his own Freewill, Calls on the Lord God, "COMMITS" "AGREES" "AUTHORIZES' "CONSENTS'" by his own HEARTFUL word, FOR the Lord God, TO "accept", "assume", DO Gods WORKS per the FULLNESS of that mans Life....BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT....
THEN
WHAT?
It is ...Then by and through Gods Power, Gods Works that man Receives The Fullness of Gods Gift of Faith
That man IS MADE FAITH-FULL "once" and Forever.
AND ?
What's the BONUS?
Direct, one on one Communication between that man and the Lord God.
* ASK of God Anything.
And no doubt, Converted men DO ALOT OF ASKING God of ALL kinds of things.
....A better job, a big house, a new car, fertility to conceive, win a sports game, catch a cheating spouse, get a recording deal, .....blah, blah, blah.
....Ask Anything...
However Scripture gives us "hints", of specific things TO ASK FOR.
*** And one of those "things"...IS:
"Gods Understanding" of His OWN Word
THAT ^^ is Really what men Desire..."BUT" seemingly seek, search, listen, adopt what other men understand pertaining to Gods Word; instead of "ASKING" God for His Understanding of His own word.

I think you know that the gospel is from God and is about the things of the Spirit of God. And I believe you have read Paul said that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Correct.

Now, considering that, what becomes of free will or having a choice? Unless God quickens the spirit of the natural man, opening his spiritual eyes and ears, he will not really understand the gospel. Now, we see people hear the gospel, and some receive it and some don’t, some believe and some don’t, isn’t it?

Have you wondered how could some reject such an amazing grace?

No, I do not particularly wonder "how" some could reject God or His Grace. I can SEE, what the WORLD promotes loudly, 24-7, makes convenient, promises, sometimes forces, TO utterly remove any consideration, thought, idea, knowledge OF the Lord God Almighty....From daily life of the entire world.
(By the way, in the US particularly, before a baby is out of diapers, getting that baby out of the parents care and influence to a "program", to be "programmed" OF the world, has been flourishing quite effectively for decades.)

Again, check out the story of Lydia.

Already did. She Worshiped God, before Paul and Timothy preached to her the Gospel of Jesus Christ having arrived, and His Offering, that She willingly Accepted.

So, let me ask again "why or how" was it that you get to choose to believe God?

Why? Because God choosing me is only half the equasion, and not a binding Agreement, "Until" I also Chose God, which completes the Agreement, BY "BOTH" parties standing in Agreement...God and myself.

How? Because God Offered and I accepted His Offering.

So in effect...there is no Agreement, Until the Two parties, Freely Choose TO Agree.
(You can not marry a woman simply because you love her, you want her, you Offer your hand in marriage....
She has to ALSO Choose you.

Do you think that came to be without God’s working in you such as He had with Lydia?

Gods WORKS in me, IS Expressly because I Freely Chose to Accept His Offering.
Gods WORKS in me, IS Expressly (taught in Scripture), what one Can Expect the Surety, (as we may say, guarantee) IF they choose God...AND what one Can Expect, (and also be assured), IF they "choose", to NOT Choose God.

 

[Taken]

Anybody can “ hear” the Gospel.....Lest God “ open your heart” it will fall upon deaf ears.....

Check out the story of Lydia , the Seller Of Purple In Acts 16...... ( God “ opened her heart “ to not only “hear” it, but he opened her heart to “ Believe” it....This is in full agreement with the Truth Of this Statement — “ Nobody comes to God unless the Spirit draw him” ......it seems that God has the initiative when it comes to getting Saved—— only HE can bless one with “ ears to hear and eyes to see”......or in other words, the Opening Of a Heart.......

I believe "opening of ones heart", is by God.
Exactly "when" that occurs, is a more indepth discussion.

Lydia aleady worshiped God. She readily accepted Paul's preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Chirst.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

BB said:
“ Nobody comes to God unless the Spirit draw him”?:

Joh_12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto ME."

Since The Cross IS The ALL-Sufficient PAYMENT For ALL sin, And, since
ALL men "Have Been RECONCILED To God" (2Co_5:18-21 KJB!),
God's Gospel Of GRACE is FREELY Offered TO ALL men, to EITHER:

Accept IT, OR Reject IT! Seems like OUR "choice," Since The Holy Spirit
"Convicts {Reproves} ALL men of THEIR sin," (Joh_16:8 KJB!) eh?

Be Blessed!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Born Again and DO NOT SIN, Verified with Scripture, already posted.

What I did not say is what you said in your post # 4099

Then you believe what I said. Why would you deny it?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Any and all things that God does is by His authority.

No dispute.

If none, then it is understood that no man gives God authority nor does God had no authority over one at any point in time.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Nobody gives God any authority.

By Gods Authority, Will, Pleasure, God Himself
"MADE" man to have Freewill...
Freewill IS mans ability to Freely Choose.
A man Freely Choosing God, or NOT Choosing God: IS a man exercising his own individual (power/authority) TO CHOOSE.

You are implying, WITHOUT a mans...
Freewill, Authority, Okay, Agreement, Consent...
THAT God Himself WILL "By HIS AUTHORITY" Force a man to Choose God.

Uh, no.

Nobody is saying nor is implying that God force a man to choose God.

God’s salvation does not rest on man’s free will or choice, but entirely rest on God’s grace.

Tong2020 said: ↑
For He is the source of it. What authority you think man have, is only what man received from God.

I Already established that. Expressly noting God MADE man to HAVE FREEWILL.

However that does mean that when God gave man free will, that God lost His authority over the man.

What man make of his free will, has nothing to do with God’s authority over him.

Tong2020 said: ↑
And when God gives, it does not mean God cease to not have said given authority.

Never said, Gods Authority ceases.

Perhaps. But while you did not say that, you did say “when you submitted to the Lord God, you gave Him authority to KEEP His Promises to you.” Does that not imply that God does not have such authority before you submitted?

Tong2020 said: ↑
God saves man according to His will, pleasure, purpose, and divine nature.

Sure He does, never said otherwise.
Before my life time, God Offered TO THE WHOLE WORLD, Freewill, To Choose God, or NOT.
And God expressly revealed How a man CAN (according to Gods Way, ie terms) choose God.
And God Promised, that ANY man WHO expressly chooses God according to His WAY, God WILL Save that man....which IS expressly According to His WILL.

God did not offer free will. He created man with a will of his own.

Regarding the rest of what you said there, it seems to me that you forget what became of mankind in Adam, when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And also, you seem to believe that fallen man gets to be saved saved by God by giving God the authority to save Him through his free will.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Needless to say, He has that power and authority.

And seemingly necessary to repeat...
God gave man the authority to FREELY CHOOSE God or Not.

Yes He did. Nobody is saying otherwise. But again, that does not take away God’s authority in all things over man, even over all creation.

God created the man with a will of his own. And what was Adam’s will? And what became of mankind because of that?

Tong
R3809

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Regarding your question, you have already been invited by @Blood Bought 1953, to check out the story of Lydia in Acts 16, how she was saved by God. And after checking that out, please tell us what you get to see there regarding man’s free will and God’s authority.

Pretty Clear. Paul and Timothy, on the sabbath went out from a city they had been staying in (during their travels), to a river side, to pray.
When they arrived at the river side there was a woman there, named Lydia, (who sold purple things in the city). Lydia worshipped God. Paul and Timothy sat and talk with Lydia. ( I can presume Paul and Timothy talked with her ABOUT Jesus Christ, since that is what Paul agreed with Jesus he would do, and Timothy agree with Paul that is what he would do). Lydia we learn, was Baptized.
* Nothing says Lydia was forced to worship God, but she did Worship God.
* Nothing says Lydia rejected what Paul and Timothy was telling her.
* Every indication is Lydia FREELY CHOSE, by her own Consent, her free will authority TO Consent, to give her life to the Lord God and receive the Offering of His Baptism, His Conversion.


Act 16
[13] And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
[14] And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
[15] And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.


You are hung up on "authority".
Every man WHO, Freely willfully, consents, agrees, IS Authorizing God to DO HIS WORKS, He Offered He WOULD DO....
IF a man Consents.

Men require your "WRITTEN" authorization,
To AGREEMENTS, CONTRACTS, CONSENTS...
(BEFORE, they are oblidged to DO what they Offer... Employment, Banking, Attorney, etc.)

God Requires your "WORD" authorization,
(BEFORE, He is oblidged to DO what He Offered...Forgiveness, Salvation, Quickening, etc.)

<<<* Nothing says Lydia was forced to worship God, but she did Worship God.
* Nothing says Lydia rejected what Paul and Timothy was telling her.
* Every indication is Lydia FREELY CHOSE, by her own Consent, her free will authority TO Consent, to give her life to the Lord God and receive the Offering of His Baptism, His Conversion.>>>
You read and have seen what the passage does not say. That’s fine. And perhaps because you focus on man, and so sees what Lydia did and did not do, you missed what God had done.

The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

Now, what do you think would have happened if God had not opened Lydia’s heart?

Tong
R3810

 

[Taken]

Then you believe what I said. Why would you deny it?

Come on. You speak for you. I'll speak for me. Please no need deflect.

 

[Taken]

If none, then it is understood that no man gives God authority nor does God had no authority over one at any point in time.

God gave mankind "authority" to make "choices", by the mans WILL. <-- THAT does not supersede Gods WILL, ^ THAT reveals Gods WILL, for man to have AUTHORITY "TO CHOOSE GOD!

God Does NOT FORCE a man to Choose HIM....
Choosing IS a man exercising his own WILL!
MAN freely...Picking, choosing, agreeing, electing...God.....IS the mans WILL.
....and ONCE A MAN ELECTS GOD....God exercises HIS AUTHORITY TO DO "HIS WORKS" IN a man that He said He WOULD, "IF" the man CHOSE HIM.

Nobody is saying nor is implying that God force a man to choose God.

Correct. No one said that God forces a man to choose God...But then DO TELL, from your perspective..."If" as you say...

"no man gives God authority"

Who exactly is giving God authority "to take unto Himself" any man...IF not the man himself, by the mans election to choose God?

God’s salvation does not rest on man’s free will or choice, but entirely rest on God’s grace.[/QUOTE

Off point. Gods grace was revealed. Established, Done. As long as men are mortally Alive, Salvation Offered to all men continues. What remains is who will exercise their freewill and elect God.

However that does mean that when God gave man free will, that God lost His authority over the man.

Don't think you meant to say that ^.

What man make of his free will, has nothing to do with God’s authority over him.

Sure it does. Mans' Freewill to Elect God, Man's Freewill to Reject God....We already Know, by Gods Word, what shall become of Each.

Perhaps. But while you did not say that, you did say “when you submitted to the Lord God, you gave Him authority to KEEP His Promises to you.”
Does that not imply that God does not have such authority before you submitted?

Keep the Authority, the Authorizing, the Agreement, IN Context.
According to His Word, He did not have "authority to Save me" AGAINST my WILL.
(Review what you said, God does NOT force a man to Choose Him).

God did not offer free will. He created man with a will of his own.

No. Stay on point. God Created man...(that man was neither Dead or Alive...Freewill did not exist IN that man, UNTIL God "MADE" that man ALIVE.
* "God Creates...then Makes", something unique to His Creation.
* And IF a man, Chooses to accept Gods Offering; God "MAKES' His creation another "something" unique, expressly by that man
"Freely" choosing to be "MADE" "a new creature".

Freewill Was demonstrated in Genesis, (IN the Garden) where by God gave Adam options to CHOOSE, what Adam willed.

Regarding the rest of what you said there, it seems to me that you forget what became of mankind in Adam, when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And also, you seem to believe that fallen man gets to be saved saved by God by giving God the authority to save Him through his free will.

No. I have vivid recollection of what became of mankind because of Adam....and Precisely, individual men have been given freewill to become MADE a new creature.

.... that does not take away God’s authority in all things over man, even over all creation.

Freewill IS the authority to choose....Freely by ones own WILL.
It does not diminish Gods WILL.

You are hung up the term "authority".
I am not talking about a man SUPERSEEDING Gods authority.
I am expressly talking about a man EXERCISING HIS OWN AUTHORITY TO CHOOSE GOD, TO NOTIFY GOD...the man IS AGREEING....GOD CAN DO ALL HIS SAVING WORKS IN THAT MAN.
* (If the man DOES NOT AGREE, AUTHORIZE, COMMIT, OKAY, CHOOSE, PICK, ELECT, CONSENT....
Which is basically ALL the same thing....OF NOTIFYING GOD, YES...the man IS IN AGREEMENT for God TO CHANGE him....
WHAT ARE YOU SAYING....??
God does not Require a mans Consent, Authority, Okay, Commitment, Choosing, Election, TO SAVE that man?

 

[Taken]

You read and have seen what the passage does not say. That’s fine. And perhaps because you focus on man, and so sees what Lydia did and did not do, you missed what God had done.

I was asked about Lydia. I answered.

The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

Now, what do you think would have happened if God had not opened Lydia’s heart?

Heed means "pay attention".
Lydia paid attention to what Paul was preaching, Because WHY?
Because the Lord opened her Heart, (A woman WHO Worshipped God) ... TO pay attention to Pauls preaching, ABOUT Gods Christ Jesus.

What would have happened if the Lord had not opened her heart? Speculation, maybe she would have continued Worshipping God, and not paid attention to Pauls preaching.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now, when the gospel comes to him, he could only believe or not believe what he gets to understand of the gospel.

Here I disagree.
Whether the topic is Math, Cooking, Scripture, whatever....
* Knowledge is given, heard, received bit by bit.
* the Understanding of the Knowledge, comes long after one continues receiving the increase of the Knowledge.

* Scriptural (the Word of God) Knowledge is somewhat Different.
(Where as Men can speak, write, teach Lies, Opinions, Philosophies, Theories, Give you Cudos, a passing grade for your Listening and agreeing, Men ALSO, can give you their opinion, philosophy, theory of what their speaking, writing, teaching "means"...ie. the Understanding, "according to them".)

The Scriptural (Word of God) IS:
1) the Knowledge...is Absolute TRUTH.
2) every Person HEARING the Knowledge ...
IS given (from God), measures of Gods Gift of Faith.
3) every Person who continues Hearing the Knowledge of Gods Word, increases in hearing absolute Truth.
4) every Person who continues Hearing Knowledge of Gods Word, increases Receiving measures of Gods Gift of Faith.
5) Understanding?
Understanding Gods Word of Truth...
IS EXPRESSLY Given A man, FROM GOD.
6) WHAT man EXPRESSLY is Given "Gods Understanding, of Gods Knowledge, of Gods Word?
A "FAITH-FUL" man.

Here ... consider the difference of a man "WITH" Faith, A Gift from God, FOR HEARING.
A Gift of Faith that "INCREASES" as the man chooses to continue "HEARING".
(Consider...who continues Hearing, what they Believe)
OR
That man freely chooses TO STOP Hearing, STOP increasing in Faith...He is called FALLEN FROM "FAITH"...
(Consider...who Discontinues Hearing, what they DO NOT believe)
AND
A man WHO, after hearing, receiving faith, continues hearing, continues receiving faith...
AND
By his own Freewill, Calls on the Lord God, "COMMITS" "AGREES" "AUTHORIZES' "CONSENTS'" by his own HEARTFUL word, FOR the Lord God, TO "accept", "assume", DO Gods WORKS per the FULLNESS of that mans Life....BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT....
THEN
WHAT?
It is ...Then by and through Gods Power, Gods Works that man Receives The Fullness of Gods Gift of Faith
That man IS MADE FAITH-FULL "once" and Forever.
AND ?
What's the BONUS?
Direct, one on one Communication between that man and the Lord God.
* ASK of God Anything.
And no doubt, Converted men DO ALOT OF ASKING God of ALL kinds of things.
....A better job, a big house, a new car, fertility to conceive, win a sports game, catch a cheating spouse, get a recording deal, .....blah, blah, blah.
....Ask Anything...
However Scripture gives us "hints", of specific things TO ASK FOR.
*** And one of those "things"...IS:
"Gods Understanding" of His OWN Word
THAT ^^ is Really what men Desire..."BUT" seemingly seek, search, listen, adopt what other men understand pertaining to Gods Word; instead of "ASKING" God for His Understanding of His own word.

<<<Whether the topic is Math, Cooking, Scripture, whatever....>>>
Scriptures is not comparable to Math, cooking or whatever.

I have just pointed out, and to which you say is correct, that the gospel is from God and is about the things of the Spirit of God, and that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So, when the natural man hears or reads the gospel recorded in scriptures, what knowledge and understanding does he have concerning it? And what do you think is what he may or may not believe regarding that, if not what he understand the gospel to be? Obviously, it is not what knowledge and understanding that is spiritually discerned.

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, let me ask again "why or how" was it that you get to choose to believe God?

Why? Because God choosing me is only half the equasion, and not a binding Agreement, "Until" I also Chose God, which completes the Agreement, BY "BOTH" parties standing in Agreement...God and myself.

Half the equation? Not a binding agreement? It seems to me that you have very different view of what salvation is.

How? Because God Offered and I accepted His Offering.

So in effect...there is no Agreement, Until the Two parties, Freely Choose TO Agree.
(You can not marry a woman simply because you love her, you want her, you Offer your hand in marriage....
She has to ALSO Choose you.

Again you seem to have a very different view of what salvation is.

And in the two times I asked you the question, there was not a hint of anything about what God does, except that, God made you an offer. And that’s it with God’s part. Then it is all up to you, your choosing.

Such view could only be of one who thinks he or that fallen man, mankind whom God said every intents of the thoughts of his heart is continually evil, mankind who is in a corrupted sinful state, mankind who is under the power of sin and is in a body of death (in the flesh), with a carnal mind that is in enmity with God, can and will choose God in and of himself.

If one fallen man was chosen by God to save, it is God who will accomplish that, and not the man chosen. And God accomplishes that consistent with what is good and consistent with His divine nature, and according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and glory. And God accomplishes that without forcing the man, nor doing by God for the man.

Why or how does a fallen man gets to choose to believe in God? The answer is not found in the man, but in God. He gets to choose to believe in God because God had done something supernatural and spiritual in him.

Tong
R3811

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If none, then it is understood that no man gives God authority nor does God had no authority over one at any point in time.

God gave mankind "authority" to make "choices", by the mans WILL. <-- THAT does not supersede Gods WILL, ^ THAT reveals Gods WILL, for man to have AUTHORITY "TO CHOOSE GOD!

God Does NOT FORCE a man to Choose HIM....
Choosing IS a man exercising his own WILL!
MAN freely...Picking, choosing, agreeing, electing...God.....IS the mans WILL.
....and ONCE A MAN ELECTS GOD....God exercises HIS AUTHORITY TO DO "HIS WORKS" IN a man that He said He WOULD, "IF" the man CHOSE HIM.

No dispute on the matter that God created mankind with a will of his own.

No one is saying that God forces a man to choose Him.

So, those are all non issue in this conversation. You can take them up with somebody else.

Tong
R3812

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
"no man gives God authority"

Who exactly is giving God authority "to take unto Himself" any man...IF not the man himself, by the mans election to choose God?

You said that when you submitted to the Lord God, you gave Him authority to KEEP His Promises to you. So you gave God authority?

As I pointed out, no man gives God authority. He has all authority. He is God from whom all authority comes.

You gave God authority? You authorized God to keep His promises to you? Who are you that you can give God authority? Who is man that gives God authority, even such authority you say there? I would like to believe that that is not what you really meant when you said that. I hope not.

Tong
R3813

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God’s salvation does not rest on man’s free will or choice, but entirely rest on God’s grace.

Off point. Gods grace was revealed. Established, Done. As long as men are mortally Alive, Salvation Offered to all men continues. What remains is who will exercise their freewill and elect God

Salvation wasn’t offered by God.

God saves a people whom He have chosen from out of the world, before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined them to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace.

That does not at all speak of salvation being offered to man, but speaks of the salvation that God had and is and will accomplish by Him, in Him, and for Him.

Man, since the beginning, exercised his will. Adam and Eve failed and missed the mark. And mankind’s failure is all over , not only in scriptures, but in the real world. What made you think now, that he can, by and on his own will, change that of himself? It takes God for that good change to happen in fallen man.

Tong
R3814

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What man make of his free will, has nothing to do with God’s authority over him.

Sure it does. Mans' Freewill to Elect God, Man's Freewill to Reject God....We already Know, by Gods Word, what shall become of Each.

No wonder why you say you gave God authority or that you authorized God at some point in your life to do some things to you. That view teaches that God cannot do to you some things without your authorizing Him to do so. Well,…..that sure renders God as without authority on such things, His hands tied so to speak, helpless, powerless, and could do nothing about it, unless you give Him such authority. Sorry but I don’t have such view about God.

Tong
R3815

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Perhaps. But while you did not say that, you did say “when you submitted to the Lord God, you gave Him authority to KEEP His Promises to you.”
Does that not imply that God does not have such authority before you submitted?

Keep the Authority, the Authorizing, the Agreement, IN Context.
According to His Word, He did not have "authority to Save me" AGAINST my WILL.
(Review what you said, God does NOT force a man to Choose Him).

What context would change the thought in what you said? In any context, the thought that you authorized God so that He can do what he could not otherwise do, remains.

<<<According to His Word, He did not have "authority to Save me" AGAINST my WILL.>>>

Where in His word? Please show scriptures that effectively says what you claim there.

<<<(Review what you said, God does NOT force a man to Choose Him).>>>

It seems to me that you have no idea how God can save whom He have chosen to save without any chance of failing, without forcing him in any way to choose and believe Him. Those whom God had chosen out of the world to save, He will not fail to save, not even once. And He was and is able to do that without violating the will of man.

Tong
R3816

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God did not offer free will. He created man with a will of his own.

No. Stay on point. God Created man...(that man was neither Dead or Alive...Freewill did not exist IN that man, UNTIL God "MADE" that man ALIVE.
* "God Creates...then Makes", something unique to His Creation.
* And IF a man, Chooses to accept Gods Offering; God "MAKES' His creation another "something" unique, expressly by that man
"Freely" choosing to be "MADE" "a new creature".

Freewill Was demonstrated in Genesis, (IN the Garden) where by God gave Adam options to CHOOSE, what Adam willed.

Regarding what you say there about the creation of man and free will, perhaps you want to make yourself more clear. The way it is, I don’t get to make any clear sense out of it.

Man was not offered free will. The commandment of God to Adam in Gen.2:16-17 indicates that he was created having a will of his own. His eating of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or his not keeping the commandment clearly proves his having a will of his own. Of course, his keeping the commandment also proves that as well.

Are you trying to say that before God gave commandment to Adam in Gen.2:16-17, that Adam had no will of his own? And if you say that God offered Adam free will, does Adam have a choice to accept or not? With your position, he does not have a choice right? Even foolishly arguing, how do you suppose Adam could chose not to accept free will? Well,…. there goes the idea of free will being offered.

Tong
R3817

 

[Tong2020]

I was asked about Lydia. I answered.

Heed means "pay attention".
Lydia paid attention to what Paul was preaching, Because WHY?
Because the Lord opened her Heart, (A woman WHO Worshipped God) ... TO pay attention to Pauls preaching, ABOUT Gods Christ Jesus.

What would have happened if the Lord had not opened her heart? Speculation, maybe she would have continued Worshipping God, and not paid attention to Pauls preaching.

The question “What would have happened if the Lord had not opened her heart?” isn’t speculation. For the passage clearly says why Lydia heed the things spoken by Paul, that is, because God opened her heart. Now, what God had opened is that which is closed, right? And that which is closed, could not receive anything in, right? That isn’t at all speculation. And so, of Lydia’s heart was not opened by God, she would not heed the things spoken by Paul.

Two points there that you seem to have missed. That even a worshiper of God, without Christ, such as Lydia does not have a heart that is open to receive the truth. That unless God opens the heart of the fallen man, even those said to be worshipers of God such as Lydia and many Jews, if not all, he will not heed and receive the truth of the gospel that the apostles preached.

That being the situation, what happens to man’s free will?

Tong
R3818

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Come on. You speak for you. I'll speak for me. Please no need deflect.

I am not deflecting my friend

you claim a person the moment he is saved is perfect and sinless. That would make him spiritually mature to the nth degree

I asked you how you think that could be true, especially when Paul called corinthian Christians who were into sexual sins babes in Christ,

can you please answer why paul would call these sinning Christians babes if they could not sin?