Question no Protestant can answer

[BreadOfLife]

Actually in 30 years, I haven't paid much attention to what is going on in the Catholic Church. I have however experienced a wonderful relationship with Jesus, the Holy Spirit dwelling in me and the Father, Whom I pray to. I was called, and I answered the call, both inwardly and outwardly. I was forgiven, cleansed, sanctified , justified by faith, and am awaiting the full consummation of our redemption.
I have witnesses the Grace, Love, Healing, Guidance and Power of God in my life and others. I have been taught by spirit filled theologians, but primarily the Holy Spirit as He give a discernment when I study my Bible. The Pope never has done anything for me in my life, nor does Mary or the Saints. I have direct access to God, and therefore no need for any other intermediary. I don't feel the need to pray to dead people to intercede for me for they can do nothing. I pray to the Father, my only spiritual Father and He answers my prayers. I don't need to repeat the same prayer over and over and over again - He knows what I need even before I pray. Actually we are supposed pray without ceasing, which is a continuous open line to God talking to Him about every decision, every problem, everyday and all day long. Not the same prayers all day. We don't talk to people that way repeating ourselves and I dont talk to God that way. We include Him in every part of our lives. And I am blessed for it.

Now it is. Yet an 8-10 year old boy needed just a few minutes here and there of counsel - "Do you understand this? ... What does communion mean? ... Tell me what you believe, about Jesus?" I vaguely remember being tested. I must have failed because I had no clue -yet they pushed me through the ceremony - just like an infant when they get baptized, knows nothing, believes nothing.

You are defensive. I never said it was, in fact I did say we are all sinners!

So, do you believe that the Holy Spirit gives everybody proper "discernment" who reads Scripture?
WHY, then, are there literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the "discernment" of their leaders?

As far as "pushing you through a ceremony" - the Church assumes that your parents were guiding you. This is THEIR responsibility - and if you had questions - you should have been able to asked them. When a child is completing their sacraments - the parents AGREE to guide them through it. Your parents failed you - yet you blame the Church for it.

As for having "direct access" to God - who says you don't?? Certainly NOT the Church.
However, intercessory prayer is commanded of us (James 5:16). Are you telling me that you NEVER pray for anyone - or NEVER ask anyone to pray for YOU? And, can you show me a SINGLE verse of Scripture that says that those in Heaven in the eternal presence of Almighty God are "dead people"?? Were Moses and Elijah "dead" at the Transfiguration?

As to "repetitious prayer" - where does Scripture condemn this? Jesus condemned the nonsensical babbling of the pagans (Matt. 6:7) - NOT the fervent prayers of the faithful.

- In Matt. 26:44, Christ prayed the EXACT SAME PRAYER - THREE times in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.

- In the Parable of the Determined Widow in Luke 18:7, Jesus emphatically states that God hears those who keep petitioning him in sincere faith: “Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily.”

- In Luke 18:13, the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying, “God be merciful to me, a sinner.” This was pleasing to God.

- We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the EXACT SAME PRAYER - day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”

- Psalm 136 goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the EXACT SAME PRAYER, “God's love endures forever”.

- In Dan. 3:56-88 we read the EXACT SAME PRAYER for 32 verses, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.”

Sooooo, WHO told you that repetitious prayer was "bad"?

 

[theefaith]

Good enough for Angels!
Good enough for the Bible!
Good enough for me!

Hail Mary! Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women,
Lk 1:28 blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus) Lk 1:42 Holy Mary, mother of God, Lk 1:43 pray for us sinners, now,
rev 5:8 and at the hour of our death, Matt 24:13 amen!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So, do you believe that the Holy Spirit gives everybody proper "discernment" who reads Scripture?
WHY, then, are there literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the "discernment" of their leaders?

Yes, but His truth is mixed with our
Falsehoods. We have a dual nature. There is a spiritual war going on inside us. The spirit wars against the flesh and vice versa. We receive mixed signals and err in separating the truth from something just fabricated, distorted or just misunderstood. If a lie is repeated enough times by many people, it can be received as truth. We would like to believe that everything we are getting is from God - but it's not. The closer we get to Him, the more we are able to recognize what isn't true.
God holds the balance of good and evil and uses evil for a purpose. If any church was perfect, with all the congregants equivalent to Mother Teresas or Billy Grahams, the gospel would have been much easier for the world to digest. They would see how wonderful all Christians are, how they they were before ... Oh the miraculous transformation ... how could they deny it. But what di they see? They see a lot of good but they alsi see hypocracy and evil mixed in, they see " tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines".
Come on now, we all believe in the essential gospel: Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day". We all try to practice living our neighbors but fail quite often. "Love your enemies" - that's more difficult! It would be a no brainer if all Christians demonstrated perfect love all the time. They would think, "Yes I want that blessed life, look at them, they are so happy, unselfish and loving!"
But sin dwells in the members of our flesh and shows it's ugly face among the best of us. I just got angry at my wife the other day in an argument, stormed out to my car, lifted the door handle (that was locked) and broke it. The Devil_ for one moment _ got a foothold in my anger and I paid the price - yet another lesson in self-control. I am sure wars were started that way, good people flying off the handle, prideful, forgetting to pray that day and the Devil took advantage of it.

As far as "pushing you through a ceremony" - the Church assumes that your parents were guiding you. This is THEIR responsibility - and if you had questions - you should have been able to asked them. When a child is completing their sacraments - the parents AGREE to guide them through it. Your parents failed

Yes, they did. My Father was an atheist and my mother was off in her own tangent. They both made peace with God just before they died, thank God.

However, intercessory prayer is commanded of us (James 5:16). Are you telling me that you NEVER pray for anyone - or NEVER ask anyone to pray for YOU? And, can you show me a SINGLE verse of Scripture that says that those in Heaven in the eternal presence of Almighty God are "dead people"?? Were Moses and Elijah "dead" at the Transfiguration?

I pray for living people and living people pray for me - that is what we call intercessory prayer. There is no communication with the dead. Deut. 18:11 states that we should not inquire about the dead, it is an abomination. An inquiry to Mary or the Saints is the same is it not?

As to "repetitious prayer" - where does Scripture condemn this? Jesus condemned the nonsensical babbling of the pagans (Matt. 6:7) - NOT the fervent prayers of the faithful.

MATT. 6:7 IS instructing us NOT to use vain repetitious prayers thinking you will be heard. I am surprised you gambled with this verse and are in denial that it is applicable to saying 10 Hail Mary's or even repeating the Lord's prayer over and over. If you had cancer and you petitioned God for healing everyday. Nothing wrong with that. But what if you thought it more effective and that God would here you if you recited "God heal me" 1000 times. What do you think ....not enough? ... 2000 times should do It, then for sure He'll heal me.

- In Matt. 26:44, Christ prayed the EXACT SAME PRAYER - THREE times in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.

He didn't pray repetitiously, each prayer was at a different time, separated. He prayed, then checked on the disciples, who were sleeping, then went again. It is like a child asking his father for something, but doesn't get an answer, so He persists, hits him again an hour later, waits ... no answer ... Then one one time. Those prayers from Jesus to the Father are unique/special. This was a prayer that would effect humanity for all time. Jesus knew the answer, this was His purpose, His destiny. He was the Sacrificial Lamb who was going to take away the sins of the world. If someone comes across a crucial decision as such, I think it's worthy of repeating a prayer a few times during the night - but give God a little space to respond between them.

- In the Parable of the Determined Widow in Luke 18:7, Jesus emphatically states that God hears those who keep petitioning him in sincere faith:

Sure, everyday ... once is enough.

- We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the EXACT SAME PRAYER - day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”

That is praise and worship, not the same as a prayer, talking to God, asking Him for something, a petition.

Psalm 136 goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the EXACT SAME PRAYER, “God's love endures forever”.

PRAISES

- In Dan. 3:56-88 we read the EXACT SAME PRAYER for 32 verses, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.”

PRAISES

 

[theefaith]

Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13

 

[Wrangler]

No!

Just because you don’t like the answer, doesn’t mean you did not get an answer.

Summarize the unanswered part of your question. This should be good.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, but His truth is mixed with our
Falsehoods. We have a dual nature. There is a spiritual war going on inside us. The spirit wars against the flesh and vice versa. We receive mixed signals and err in separating the truth from something just fabricated, distorted or just misunderstood. If a lie is repeated enough times by many people, it can be received as truth. We would like to believe that everything we are getting is from God - but it's not. The closer we get to Him, the more we are able to recognize what isn't true.
God holds the balance of good and evil and uses evil for a purpose. If any church was perfect, with all the congregants equivalent to Mother Teresas or Billy Grahams, the gospel would have been much easier for the world to digest. They would see how wonderful all Christians are, how they they were before ... Oh the miraculous transformation ... how could they deny it. But what di they see? They see a lot of good but they alsi see hypocracy and evil mixed in, they see " tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines".
Come on now, we all believe in the essential gospel: Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day". We all try to practice living our neighbors but fail quite often. "Love your enemies" - that's more difficult! It would be a no brainer if all Christians demonstrated perfect love all the time. They would think, "Yes I want that blessed life, look at them, they are so happy, unselfish and loving!"
But sin dwells in the members of our flesh and shows it's ugly face among the best of us. I just got angry at my wife the other day in an argument, stormed out to my car, lifted the door handle (that was locked) and broke it. The Devil_ for one moment _ got a foothold in my anger and I paid the price - yet another lesson in self-control. I am sure wars were started that way, good people flying off the handle, prideful, forgetting to pray that day and the Devil took advantage of it.

Yes, they did. My Father was an atheist and my mother was off in her own tangent. They both made peace with God just before they died, thank God.

I pray for living people and living people pray for me - that is what we call intercessory prayer. There is no communication with the dead. Deut. 18:11 states that we should not inquire about the dead, it is an abomination. An inquiry to Mary or the Saints is the same is it not?

MATT. 6:7 IS instructing us NOT to use vain repetitious prayers thinking you will be heard. I am surprised you gambled with this verse and are in denial that it is applicable to saying 10 Hail Mary's or even repeating the Lord's prayer over and over. If you had cancer and you petitioned God for healing everyday. Nothing wrong with that. But what if you thought it more effective and that God would here you if you recited "God heal me" 1000 times. What do you think ....not enough? ... 2000 times should do It, then for sure He'll heal me.

He didn't pray repetitiously, each prayer was at a different time, separated. He prayed, then checked on the disciples, who were sleeping, then went again. It is like a child asking his father for something, but doesn't get an answer, so He persists, hits him again an hour later, waits ... no answer ... Then one one time. Those prayers from Jesus to the Father are unique/special. This was a prayer that would effect humanity for all time. Jesus knew the answer, this was His purpose, His destiny. He was the Sacrificial Lamb who was going to take away the sins of the world. If someone comes across a crucial decision as such, I think it's worthy of repeating a prayer a few times during the night - but give God a little space to respond between them.

Sure, everyday ... once is enough.

That is praise and worship, not the same as a prayer, talking to God, asking Him for something, a petition.

PRAISES

PRAISES

I’m happy that your parents made peace with God before they died – may they rest in peace. However, they did you a disservice as a child by shirking their duties. I’m glad that you rediscovered Christ in your adulthood – but it was unfortunately at the expense of part of the truth. This is evident by some of the statements you’re making.

On the night before His crucifixion, Jesus prayed for the UNITY of His Church – that they remain ONE, as He and His Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). He didn’t pray that they splinter into perpetual factions as long as they believed in the “basics”.

Where do you get your ideas that asking a fellow member of the Body of Christ in Heaven to pray for you is “forbidden”?? The prohibitions against necromancy in Deuteronomy are against gleaning information from the dead. THAT is the definition of necromancy.
Rev. 5:8 shows those in Heaven taking our prayers to God. This is the very definition of intercession.

Regarding your idea that Jesus condemned repetitious prayer – I just PROVED to you with Scripture that you are wrong. I showed you where Jesus Himself prayed the EXACT SAME prayer 3 times. I gave you no less than SIX Scriptural proofs as to WHY you’re wrong – yet you still maintain that He “condemned” repetitious prayer. This is nothing short of spiritual pride on your part as well as a perversion of Scripture.

Look – I’m not trying to convert you. If you’re happy where you are, that’s your business.
However, I won’t sit by and watch people misrepresent Catholic teaching based on their ignorance of it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

However, they did you a disservice as a child by shirking their duties.

No, you see you fail to that it was God's plan all along to save me on Jan.1, 1991. All the motions prior to that were just steps along the path. I wasn't ready at 8 or 10 or 20.

I’m glad that you rediscovered Christ in your adulthood – but it was unfortunately at the expense of part of the truth. This is evident by some of the statements you’re making.

.Yes, the absence of the Popes, Mary and The Saints have had a devastating effect on me.

On the night before His crucifixion, Jesus prayed for the UNITY of His Church – that they remain ONE, as He and His Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). He didn’t pray that they splinter into perpetual factions as long as they believed in the “basics”

So much unity that each of His letters to the Seven Churches only 60 years after the CHURCH began proved that sin causes division within, causing fragments and coruption. Only one generation and out of seven churches only two did not receive rebuke, Philadelphia and Smyrna. A few were bad, almost dead, another He wanted to vomit out of His mouth. And so it goes, throughout history we have dealt with imperfection within the BODY of CHRIST - which is ONE.

Rev. 5:8 shows those in Heaven taking our prayers to God. This is the very definition of intercession.

"When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Sorry, we are all referred to as saints. These are prayers of the entire Body of Christ.

Regarding your idea that Jesus condemned repetitious prayer – I just PROVED to you with Scripture that you are wrong. I showed you where Jesus Himself prayed the EXACT SAME prayer 3 times. I gave you no less than SIX Scriptural proofs as to WHY you’re wrong – yet you still maintain that He “condemned” repetitious prayer. This is nothing short of spiritual pride on your part as well as a perversion of Scripture.

You choose to deny that Matt. 6:7 condemns repitious and empty prayers as if it is not applicable to praying 10 Hail Marys ... go ahead say a few thousand - they are empty. I pray to the Father.

Go your way, and hopedully some of your prayers are addressed to OUR FATHER - those are the ones that He will hear and answer.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jesus puts things into perspective. He shows no favoritism regarding people, He loves His sheep equally.
When Jesus was told that His "Mother and brothers were outside", He told every one in the group, that they were'nt any more valuable then them, He did not favor them more nor were they any better than anyone else who believed in Him and followed Him.
"And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:20, 21
Moses, Elijah, David, Paul, or Peter are no better than anyone else in heaven nor is Mary or any of the so called "Catholic Saints". God chose these individuals to do His work that He prepared for them to do. He equipped them and so He alone gets the credit. No one else is glorified in Heaven except Jesus and the Father.
Can anyone imagine how many hundreds of millions of prayers are blindly sent to Mary or the Saints? As if they were omniscient and could hear or receive all of them, sort them out and answer them? They do not have this power nor were they given this ability. There may be 24 elders sitting on thrones in Heaven and they could be some I have mentioned, and so if God put them there, I'm okay with that; but Mary is not one of them nor are any of these Catholic Saints.
God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, no one else is and one would have to be to receive and answer hundreds of millions of prayers ... e v e r y s i n g l e d a y!
Mary was chosen to be the Mother of Jesus on earth. She was blessed, which means happy and ordained to do the job. She did and that was that. She has no hiarchy position in heaven as Catholics falsely elevate her to. Jesus, on the cross, looked down to John and said, this is your mother. That was personal to Him, in other words, treat her like your mother as Jesus treated other women. In essence He said, "Love her like your Mom, take care of her." It wasn't a message to the world.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you see you fail to that it was God's plan all along to save me on Jan.1, 1991. All the motions prior to that were just steps along the path. I wasn't ready at 8 or 10 or 20.

.Yes, the absence of the Popes, Mary and The Saints have had a devastating effect on me.

So much unity that each of His letters to the Seven Churches only 60 years after the CHURCH began proved that sin causes division within, causing fragments and coruption. Only one generation and out of seven churches only two did not receive rebuke, Philadelphia and Smyrna. A few were bad, almost dead, another He wanted to vomit out of His mouth. And so it goes, throughout history we have dealt with imperfection within the BODY of CHRIST - which is ONE.

"When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Sorry, we are all referred to as saints. These are prayers of the entire Body of Christ.

You choose to deny that Matt. 6:7 condemns repitious and empty prayers as if it is not applicable to praying 10 Hail Marys ... go ahead say a few thousand - they are empty. I pray to the Father.

Go your way, and hopedully some of your prayers are addressed to OUR FATHER - those are the ones that He will hear and answer.

No - you were saved at Baptism (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet. 3:21). You just got wet the second time around.
ONE Baptism (Eph. 4:5) - not 2 or 3 or 10 . . .

And just because YOU didn't utilize the help of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ - don't blame them.
Blame your parents and yourself. The saints in Heaven didn't have a "devastating effect" on you - your parent's indifference did.

As to Rev. 5:8 - YES, they are OUR prayers. Those in Heaven are interceding on our behalf by taking OUR prayers (prayers of the saints) to God. This is inescapable, Scriptural PROOF of Heavenly intercession.
Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels in Heaven doing the same thing for us.

And you dishonestly can rant on that Matt. 6:7 condemns repetitious prayer until the cows come home - but I have PROVEN otherwise from the pages of Scripture (Matt. 26:44, Luke 18:7, Luke 18:13, Psalm 136, Dan. 3:56-88 and Rev. 4:8).

Finally - regarding the Seven churches in Revelation - these WEREN'T different denominations. They were ALL the SAME Church in 7 different locations. The ones that are being rebuked are being rebuked for the ACTIONS or INACTION - not because of their doctrines.
What we have today, however, are tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based on the whims of their founders.

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

That is NOT the picture of "ONE" Body . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus puts things into perspective. He shows no favoritism regarding people, He loves His sheep equally.
When Jesus was told that His "Mother and brothers were outside", He told every one in the group, that they were'nt any more valuable then them, He did not favor them more nor were they any better than anyone else who believed in Him and followed Him.
"And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:20, 21
Moses, Elijah, David, Paul, or Peter are no better than anyone else in heaven nor is Mary or any of the sk called "Catholic Saints". God chose these individuals to do His work that He prepared for them to do. He equipped them and so He alone gets the credit. No one else is glorified in Heaven except Jesus and the Father.
Can anyone imagine how many hundreds of millions of prayers are sent to Mary or the Saints? As if they were omniscient and could hear or receive all of them, sort them out and answer them? They do not have this power nor were they given this ability. There may be 24 elders sitting on thrones in Heaven and they very well could be some I have mentioned, and so if Gid put them there, I'm okaybwith that; but Mary is not one of them nor are any of these Catholic Saints.
God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, no one else is and one would have to be to receive and answer hundreds of millions of prayers ... e v e r y s i n g l e d a y!
Mary was chosen to be the Mother of Jesus on earth. She was blessed, which means happy and ordained to do the job. She did and that was that. She has no hiarchy position in heaven as Catholics falsely elevate her to. Jesus, on the cross, looked down to John and said, this is your mother. That was a personal to Him, in other words, treat her like your mother as Jesus treated other women. In essence He said, "Love her like your Mom, take care of her." It wasn't a message to the world.

This has GOT to be the most ignorant thing you've claimed yet.
HOW does hearing a FINITE number of prayers make a person "omniscient" or "omnipresent"??
If Mary and the saints in Heaven hear 3 BILLION prayers per day - that is still a finite number.

The answer is found in verses like . . .
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1 Cor. 2:9
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”

Those in Heaven are FULLY in Christ and in the FULL glory of His presence - and have been made PERFECT in Christ (Rev. 21:27). Of COURSE they can see and hear things that would be impossible for us to do. But with God - ALL things are possible.
WE on earth are still being worked on (sanctified) DAILY. Your lack of faith for what awaits us in Heaven is astounding.

Finally, as to Mary - IF Jesus had siblings, THEY would have taken care of her after His death. It would have been scandalous for Him to "give" her to the care of someone else, like John. As for Jesus NOT treating her as anything "special" - you couldn't be more wrong . . .

The Ark of the Covenant was the way God was present with His people. It carried the symbols of His power - Aaron's staff, the Tablets with the Commandments, a jar of the Heavenly food, Manna. It was lined with pure gold and God's Mercy Seat was made of solid gold. It was purified inside and out - and NO man was to touch it, lest he DIE. Just as Uzzah (2 Sam. 6:6-7) . . .

As with ALL OT types - the fulfillment is ALWAYS more perfect and glorious - without exception.
NOW, for the fulfillment . . .

OT - The Tabernacle that housed the Ark was overshadowed by the cloud of glory of the Lord (Shekinah glory) filled the Tabernacle (2 Chron. 5:13-14).
NT - Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Most High (Luke 1:35).

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) who carried the actual Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and the Spirit came down as fire from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

And we're NOT done yet . . .

In the Book of Revelation, we see the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven being spoken of at the very end of Chapter 11, verse 19:
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

The very next verse is in Chapter 12 (Rev 12:1):
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Verse 2 says:
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read:
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

Gee - I WONDER who that could be? There is simply no getting around the fact that the Woman described here in Revelation 12 as the Ark in Heaven is Mary.
STILL believe that God doesn't think of her as "special"??

 

[theefaith]

Cannot be united to Christ apart from His church and the sacraments of grace

 

[Daniel Veler]

The answer is in the same scripture. He went to Jerusalem to worship.
“Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,”
It doesn’t take a scientist to figure that one out.

 

[theefaith]

The answer is in the same scripture. He went to Jerusalem to worship.
“Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,”
It doesn’t take a scientist to figure that one out.

Christian baptism is taught by the apostles! The church founded by Christ on Peter

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This has GOT to be the most ignorant thing you've claimed yet.
HOW does hearing a FINITE number of prayers make a person "omniscient" or "omnipresent"??

Who else can hear and answer the prayers of a billion people? You must be ignorant of you can't figure that out. And your ignorant comparison of the Ark of the Covenant with Mary - is that really a doctrine that Catholics teach - who thought of that? So Mary is a type of Ark. Elm ... should have called her The Second Ark. What dim wit formulated this typology?

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

I absolutely agree with this scripture and all the scriptures you bring up, they are wonderful. We will have multi-dimensional eternal bodies like Jesus, able to do incredible things, but we will not be all knowing.

Those in Heaven are FULLY in Christ and in the FULL glory of His presence - and have been made PERFECT in Christ (Rev. 21:27). Of COURSE they can see and hear things that would be impossible for us to do. But with God - ALL things are possible.
WE on earth are still being worked on (sanctified) DAILY. Your lack of faith for what awaits us in Heaven is astounding.

Absolutely ... except for the last sentence. I do look forward to my new eternal body. But nothing in the Bible says Mary or the Saints have abilities to revive billions of prayers and answer them - THAT IS WHAT GOD ALONE DOES.

Finally, as to Mary - IF Jesus had siblings, THEY would have taken care of her after His death. It would have been scandalous for Him to "give" her to the care of someone else, like John. As for Jesus NOT treating her as anything "special" - you couldn't be more wrong . . .

Well, He did give us some perspective in Luke 8:20, 21

Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Most High (Luke 1:35)

Mary was chosen to give birth and care for Jesus, physicalmy. She is not the Mother of God, she is the human mother of the physical part of Jesus - NOT HIS SPIRJTUAL MOTHER. HE EXISTED BEFORE THE EARTH WAS FORMED -HELLO!

The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) who carried the actual Word of God.[- HELLO!
YES, YES, NO. THE WORD IS THE EXACT EXPRESSION ,THE SPIRITUAL ESSENCE OF GOD. Mary did not physically carry the spiritual essence and being of God. Jesus is God.
Elevating Mary to something she is not. The whole Bible is about Jesus.
This is what Mary gets out of that:
She is mentioned 12 times in Luke, 5 times in Matthew, 1 time in Mark and 1 time in Acts. After 1 verse in Acts and Jesus was gone, in essence, so was she. If she was so precious, why didn't the rest of the Bible speak of her often? Romans is a book that you can derive the main doctrines of Christianity. Where is Mary? Paul didn't speak of her - Oops, must have slipped his mind? No, she was not significant. Mary served her purpose on earth and that was it.

Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

Elizabeth was flattered and her baby jumped for joy because of Jesus.

Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

The woman is symbolic for Israel.
But actually this is a constellation that appeared when Jesus was born several times after that but more recently on 9-23-2017. It is a sign of His coming in the stars (Gen. 1:14). The constellations were used as signs. The Magi most likely followed a star but it could have been the King planet, Jupiter. This constellation of a woman Virgo, clothed with the sun, the moon at her feet and a garland of 12 stars around her head describes this exaxt constellation. Part of those twelve stars was the constellation Leo (The Lion) REV. 12 even describes it an appearance in Heaven (The second heaven). What happened in addition to this constellation was that Jupiter travels towards Virgo, enters into the womb, circles around the womb for 9 months then exists on that day. This is beyond coincidence.

Gee - I WONDER who that could be? There is simply no getting around the fact that the Woman described here in Revelation 12 as the Ark in Heaven is Mary.
STILL believe that God doesn't think of her as "special"??

No the woman is symbolic for Israel, learned scholars know this. In the Old Testament, God referred to His people as a woman. Jerusalem is called the mother of us all. (Gal.4:26, HEB. 12:22, 23) The seed was planted long ago starting with Abraham and out of that seed would come the Savior. Even in the New Testament, we are the bride.
Mary pales in significance to Israel. 19 verses for Mary - not too bad. Let's all agree, Mary was blessed.
What else you got?

 

[Wrangler]

So, do you believe that the Holy Spirit gives everybody proper "discernment" who reads Scripture?
WHY, then, are there literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the "discernment" of their leaders?

Yes. If the HS tells Jesus to go to the desert and Paul to the sea, both act according to divine guidance.

A question I’ve asked but got an answer to is how your view abandons the millions of people who come to Christ through the literally tens of thousands of Protestant sects? It is a False Alternative that these people would be brought to God through one corrupt denomination, aka the Catholic Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes. If the HS tells Jesus to go to the desert and Paul to the sea, both act according to divine guidance.

A question I’ve asked but got an answer to is how your view abandons the millions of people who come to Christ through the literally tens of thousands of Protestant sects? It is a False Alternative that these people would be brought to God through one corrupt denomination, aka the Catholic Church.

The difference is that Jesus and Paul weren't preaching a different Gospel. They peached the SAME Gospel from two different angles.

This is NOT what has happened in Protestantism. I laid out a list of major doctrinal differences in post #489 - and this is NOT a compete list.
This list shows competing and contradicting doctrines. If you actually believe that the Holy Spirit contradicts Himself - then you don't know Him.

As to your "question" - my view doesn't "abandon" the millions of believers within Protestantism.
Properly Baptized Protestants are Christians. MY concern is that they are disobedient - NOT that they don't possess faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And your ignorant comparison of the Ark of the Covenant with Mary - is that really a doctrine that Catholics teach - who thought of that? So Mary is a type of Ark. Elm ... should have called her The Second Ark. What dim wit formulated this typology?

Ummmmm, then instead of hurling idiotic insults - why don't you try to DEBUNK the Scriptural evidence I laid out that shows Mary as the fulfillment of the Ark??
Is that that too much for you to handle?

Who else can hear and answer the prayers of a billion people? You must be ignorant of you can't figure that out. I absolutely agree with this scripture and all the scriptures you bring up, they are wonderful. We will have multi-dimensional eternal bodies like Jesus, able to do incredible things, but we will not be all knowing.

WOW. Sooooooo, you don't think that God will endow you with great abilities in Heaven?
What a pathetic lack of faith . . .

And you never answered my question: What makes you think that Mary or ANYONE else in Heaven has to be "Omniscient" to hear a FINITE number of prayers?? A Billion is NOT an infinite number.

Absolutely ... except for the last sentence. I do look forward to my new eternal body. But nothing in the Bible says Mary or the Saints have abilities to revive billions of prayers and answer them - THAT IS WHAT GOD ALONE DOES.

REALLY??
Can you show me where the BIBLE says that everybody in Heaven except for God is DEAF??
Also - can you explain to me how the elders in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) are TAKING our prayers before God - if they never heard them??

Well, He did give us some perspective in Luke 8:20, 21

No, He didn't.
That's NOT what this verse is about. It's a symbolic verse about faith and obedience.

Mary was chosen to give birth and care for Jesus, physicalmy. She is not the Mother of God, she is the human mother of the physical part of Jesus - NOT HIS SPIRJTUAL MOTHER. HE EXISTED BEFORE THE EARTH WAS FORMED -HELLO!

Then YOU adhere to the Nestorian Heresy, which held that God only dwelt in Jesus the man - that HE wasn't God.

The doctrine of the Hypostatic Union was declared at the Council of Ephesus in 432, which states that Jesus is FULLY Man and FULLY God. He unites to Himself TWO natures - and those TWO natures are INDIVISIBLE. At this same council, Mary was declared, Theotokos - the "God-Bearer", which was declared as a means of explaining who JESUS is - not Mary.

Either you believe that Mary gave birth to the Man-God - or you don't believe that Jesus is God.
As a Christian - you can't have it BOTH ways . . .

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Ummmmm, then instead of hurling idiotic insults - why don't you try to DEBUNK the Scriptural evidence I laid out that shows Mary as the fulfillment of the Ark??
Is that that too much for you to handle?

You started it:

This has GOT to be the most ignorant thing you've claimed yet.

Sooooooo, you don't think that God will endow you with great abilities in Heaven?
What a pathetic lack of faith

I do, just not the ability to see into hundreds of millions of people's heart's everyday, reading their deepest thoughts, desires and needs, since they are all not being specific about what they want after repeating empty Hail Marys. Mary must be a pretty good mind reader - Oh well - everybody is hailing her ... I guess she is seated at the left hand of God? I wonder, since you say she is the "mother" of God the Son, does that make her the Father's wife?

And you never answered my question: What makes you think that Mary or ANYONE else in Heaven has to be "Omniscient" to hear a FINITE number of prayers?? A Billion is NOT an infinite number.

That requires omniscience. Knowing what is inside a billion hearts and minds and answering them everyday - I guess you really believe she has been elevated to something divine. Angels can't even read minds, not one person and you have Mary knowing what everyone is thinking and praying - THAT IS ABSURD! But only19 verses for Mary, it so sad they didn't mention this divine person anymore than that.
Actually what were her real responsibilities? She gave birth, fed the baby, cooked, cleaned the house, made him clothes, told him stories. ? Sounds like a normal mom. What else? Oh, she lost him for three days - didn't realize He was missing. Apparently she didn't have those tremendous mind reading abilities before she got to heaven. They go back to Jerusalem to find him in the Temple and the 12 year old Jesus corrects his Mom because she didn't know that He was about His Father's business. She couldn't even read her own son's mind. I guess she got an upgrade, from zero mind reading abilities to knowing what the hecknevery single Hail Mary means. As used to say when Ibwas young, far out!

Can you show me where the BIBLE says that everybody in Heaven except for God is DEAF??

I didn't say that. I just think Mary and everyone else is not aware of what is going on on earth. Heaven is a perfect environment, without sin and that means without a vision of sins going on down here or pain and suffering going on down here. Why would people in Heaven be exposed to all the evils on earth? That would be depressing don't you think? Every tear is wiped away, therefore, it stands to reason that there is nothing at all to cry about, be depressed over, dyer problems to help remedy, knowing about or seeing anyone else depressed. Heaven is all good, happy - no sadness. Why would God allow evil thoughts in heaven for people to be tormented with?
But you have Mary carrying the load of billions of souls pain and suffering. Do you think she would want that job even if she could handle it? She can't nor does she. This whole thing about Mary is a fabrication, based on misunderstanding, misinterpretations, turned into false doctrine and tradition. You have proven your lack of discernment.

Also - can you explain to me how the elders in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) are TAKING our prayers before God - if they never heard them??

The prayers are in the form of incense. Simce there are billikns, they are like tiny particles. Rhey give them to God- they dont knkw what is in them. Do you think they have special smell detectors built in to their nostrils so that as they breathe in the prayers and dicipher what they are praying? Cool. As they take a deep breath ... "Oh the Buffingtons need help with their daughter down there, Suzy's boyfriend dumped her and well she lost it .. she is on her 93rd Hail Mary- oh my!"
I will put my special request not to get those special incense detectors installed in my new nose - thank you very much.

The doctrine of the Hypostatic Union was declared at the Council of Ephesus in 432, which states that Jesus is FULLY Man and FULLY God. He unites to Himself TWO natures - and those TWO natures are INDIVISIBLE. At this same council, Mary was declared, Theotokos - the "God-Bearer", which was declared as a means of explaining who JESUS is - not Mary.

I agree with the top part intil you get to Mary ... who was on that council?.I know, that was the beginning of the Women's Lib movement. Theotokos? ERROR

Either you believe that Mary gave birth to the Man-God - or you don't believe that Jesus is God.
As a Christian - you can't have it BOTH ways . . .

I TOLD YOU, SHE GAVE BIRTH TO A BABY. SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF A HUMAN. SHE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS SPIRIT - HE PRE-EXISTED BEFORE TIME. THERE IS NO MOTHER OF GOD. GOD IS SPIRIT, NOT CONFINED TO ANY PERSON, PLACE, THING OR TIME.

Listen, this is enough. It was interesting and fun dealing with absurdities for awhile. Take care.

 

[n2thelight]

Why should he desire the salvation by baptism

That wasn't the question ,was He (Christ) not baptized ?

 

[Wrangler]

I laid out a list of major doctrinal differences in post #489 - and this is NOT a compete list.
This list shows competing and contradicting doctrines. If you actually believe that the Holy Spirit contradicts Himself - then you don't know Him.

I am confident the HS does not consider major doctrines to be the same as you. And your reply totally side steps my question.

Not surprising. Most traditionalists would rather people not come to Christ if they don’t first embrace your IDOL, so called major doctrines.