The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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He died for the Many !
There are many scriptures that indicate the restricted nature of Christ Death, and that is was not for all men without exception. One of the phrases that The Spirit employs is that of The Many !
Jesus spake and said in regards to His redemptive blood Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Now this word Many though it signifies a large number:391
G4183 - polys - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Yet it also entails a restrictive significance, which limits its application to all men without exception. Yet due to its large quantity it signifies, it can be modified by the words all or every the adjective pas, and this is where the unlearned and unstable wrest scripture and distort scripture to their own preordained destruction or condemnation.
Now in light of this, We will set forth from scripture the use of the restrictive, but of wide scope, term Many, as it relates to objects of Christ Death. Going back first to the OT in prophesy, regarding Christ death Isa 53:11-12
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now I know this is a debatable with some, but I believe this is referring to Christ and the Shedding of His Blood for the New Covenant. The word for confirm here the word gabar and it means " To make Strong "
Now thats what Christ did in the New Covenant when He shed His Blood for the many Heb 9:17
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
So, By His blood shed, He confirmed or gave force to the covenant for many.
The many here would be for the ingathering of the gentiles and the conversion of the elect jews post cross.
Now here are some NT references for the word Many in a context of Christ death or fruits of it. Matt 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
So the adjective pas in 1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The all here modifies the many of Matt 20:28, because the Many here is comprised of all different races and classes opposed to just ethnic jews. But its still restricted to many as Jesus stated.
Mk 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The Many here actually clarifies who the every is in vs 9, He tasted death for the many or every son ! The word man is not in the original, it ends with pas !
Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
This scripture too, gives light to Heb 2 9, for its the same objects of His death in both references, to taste death in Heb 2:9 is the same as being once offered here in Heb 9:28, and its stated that He was offered for many, the restrictive term.
Rom 5:15,19
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I believe any honest heart, made so by the Spirit of God, can see the Truth of what I am stating here, its straight from the scripture.. Christ did not die for all men without exception, that cannot be substantiated with scripture.
There are many scriptures that indicate the restricted nature of Christ Death, and that is was not for all men without exception. One of the phrases that The Spirit employs is that of The Many !
Jesus spake and said in regards to His redemptive blood Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Now this word Many though it signifies a large number:391
G4183 - polys - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Yet it also entails a restrictive significance, which limits its application to all men without exception. Yet due to its large quantity it signifies, it can be modified by the words all or every the adjective pas, and this is where the unlearned and unstable wrest scripture and distort scripture to their own preordained destruction or condemnation.
Now in light of this, We will set forth from scripture the use of the restrictive, but of wide scope, term Many, as it relates to objects of Christ Death. Going back first to the OT in prophesy, regarding Christ death Isa 53:11-12
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now I know this is a debatable with some, but I believe this is referring to Christ and the Shedding of His Blood for the New Covenant. The word for confirm here the word gabar and it means " To make Strong "
Now thats what Christ did in the New Covenant when He shed His Blood for the many Heb 9:17
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
So, By His blood shed, He confirmed or gave force to the covenant for many.
The many here would be for the ingathering of the gentiles and the conversion of the elect jews post cross.
Now here are some NT references for the word Many in a context of Christ death or fruits of it. Matt 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
So the adjective pas in 1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The all here modifies the many of Matt 20:28, because the Many here is comprised of all different races and classes opposed to just ethnic jews. But its still restricted to many as Jesus stated.
Mk 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The Many here actually clarifies who the every is in vs 9, He tasted death for the many or every son ! The word man is not in the original, it ends with pas !
Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
This scripture too, gives light to Heb 2 9, for its the same objects of His death in both references, to taste death in Heb 2:9 is the same as being once offered here in Heb 9:28, and its stated that He was offered for many, the restrictive term.
Rom 5:15,19
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I believe any honest heart, made so by the Spirit of God, can see the Truth of what I am stating here, its straight from the scripture.. Christ did not die for all men without exception, that cannot be substantiated with scripture.
more on the Many !
Now again, the religionists does away with this specific restrictive Term " The Many" and forcefully and willfully twists the terms such as all, every, world, and whole world to mean every single individual as being the objects of Christ death, when again these words should be understood within the framework or definition of the restrictive term "The Many". Thats because a very Large number from out of every ethnic group around or throughout the world will comprise the restricted Many. Basically, the Many is restricted to the Seed of Abraham, which is comprised of all the people of Faith around and throughout the World, because Abraham was made a Father of Many Nations Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
And Christ Identified with that People Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
And all that belong to Christ by Faith, regardless of race, nationality are the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now again, the religionists does away with this specific restrictive Term " The Many" and forcefully and willfully twists the terms such as all, every, world, and whole world to mean every single individual as being the objects of Christ death, when again these words should be understood within the framework or definition of the restrictive term "The Many". Thats because a very Large number from out of every ethnic group around or throughout the world will comprise the restricted Many. Basically, the Many is restricted to the Seed of Abraham, which is comprised of all the people of Faith around and throughout the World, because Abraham was made a Father of Many Nations Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
And Christ Identified with that People Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
And all that belong to Christ by Faith, regardless of race, nationality are the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
this is flawed
Moses lifted up the serpent.
Whoever looked lived, Whoever did not died
Jesus. must be lifted up.
Whoever believes lives
Whoever does not dies
as Jesus said, whoever believes is not condemned whoever does not is condemned already.
This proves the world in John 3 means the whole world. Of believers and non believers alike.
Made like unto His Brethren !
Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
This scripture if understood aright, teaches against the false Ideal that Christ died for all men without exception.
Yes, He was made like unto His Brethren. What Brethren ? Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The predestinated ones. He was their brother, before He was made like unto them in His incarnation, and so they were His brethren before He died for them in the flesh. Many of them did not even exist yet at that time, save only in the Mind and Purpose of God. Now we are not talking about his brethren according to the flesh, or ethnicity, or biologically, for many of the biological jews did not even have God as their Father as per Jn 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
But all those by Eternal Purpose who God predestined to be conformed to His Image, that He may be the First Born of many Brethren, even all the Children of Promise, not of the jews only, but also the gentile.399
He was made like unto them, and them only, that He might be a merciful High Priest to them, and them only, and that He might make reconciliation for their sins [The People] and theirs only.
Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
This scripture if understood aright, teaches against the false Ideal that Christ died for all men without exception.
Yes, He was made like unto His Brethren. What Brethren ? Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The predestinated ones. He was their brother, before He was made like unto them in His incarnation, and so they were His brethren before He died for them in the flesh. Many of them did not even exist yet at that time, save only in the Mind and Purpose of God. Now we are not talking about his brethren according to the flesh, or ethnicity, or biologically, for many of the biological jews did not even have God as their Father as per Jn 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
But all those by Eternal Purpose who God predestined to be conformed to His Image, that He may be the First Born of many Brethren, even all the Children of Promise, not of the jews only, but also the gentile.399
He was made like unto them, and them only, that He might be a merciful High Priest to them, and them only, and that He might make reconciliation for their sins [The People] and theirs only.
Who did you write to with that post?
If me, then you see the word "for" at the beginning of John 3:16.
The word "for" is a conjunction, and a conjunction ties the preceding clause to the subsequent clause.
The previous clause is inclusive of John 3:14-15.
Therefore, you are literally subtracting from the Word of God.
The Word of God rich post about John 3:14-16 contextually showing the word "world" in John 3:16 does not mean everyone everywhere
details the steps to get to the following fact.
Jesus sets an equivalency for the relation between the "persons associated with living by looking at 'the serpent in the wilderness'" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).
Here are the related groups, "serpent lookers" is one group and "world" is the other group.
Neither group is every person everywhere.
There is more to the scriptural explanation of John 3:14-15 in the prior mentioned John 3:14-15 post, such as Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and this awesome point is related to John 3:16.
And not a single one would have been able to choose Jesus.
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
Your writing is flawed in multiple ways.
FIRST
In Numbers 21:8-9, the ones that DID NOT look at the serpent ARE NOT mentioned, so you are including a group not mentioned in scripture, so you are adding to scripture.
SECOND
Because of your thoughts including the unmentioned group, your subsequent inductive reasoning conclusion fails for use of your false unmentioned non-looker at the serpent group.
THIRD
God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).
So, it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
Lord Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
Only persons whom God imparts "the work of God" (John 6:29) are the only persons included the "world" in Jesus' words of "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16) because He tied this all together with the word "that" which makes the "world" group equivalent with the believing group of persons.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
What happened to those who did not look?
Come on man, your reaching by excusing facts, they did not have to be mentioned we know what happened to them, they died
Your logic is flawed
in numbers, whoever looked lived
in John 3. Whoever believe lived
in niether case was it said all who was bitten looked, or all who believed was the world
in fact, if all he died for believed, he would just say, formGod so loved those who believed he sent his son.[/quote][/QUOTE]
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Exactly who did Jesus Christ die for ? Was it for every person to ever live, or did He die only for the ones the Father had Chosen to save ? Was His mission for coming to make Salvation a possibility for everyone, or was it to actually guarantee the Salvation of the Elect by His death Rom 8:33-34.402
This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.
This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.
Your thoughts are out of accord with scripture.
Does this passage state anything about persons bitten that did not look at the serpent on the standard?
Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)
The answer is NO.
The persons bitten, but not looking at the serpent ARE NOT MENTIONED IN NUMBERS 21:8-9, so they are not to be a part of the correlation which Jesus so profoundly draws.
Now you reduced your inductive reasoning statement, yet your premise remains expansive beyond reason.
The following four paragraphs walk through Numbers 21:8 and John 3:16 sequentially simultaneously.
Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16).
Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).
The correlation between "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relating to "world" (John 3:16) is absolute fact established by the Word of God.
Therefore, the word "world" (John 3:16) indicates exclusively the population of persons who believe in Jesus and/or will believe in Jesus.
The fact is that God did not convey that God loves everybody everywhere in all time in the world in John 3:16.
The fact is that God conveys God loves the world of persons who believe in Jesus and/or will believe in Jesus in John 3:16.
Your final paragraph is your thoughts that defy the very Master Orator, for He says "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16).
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
whatever dude.
Believe whatever you want. Don't let me stop you
I refuse to ignore what scripture is plainly saying.
You think you can point "your belief" at Jesus by the sheer power of your own free will, so you are not receiving where Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
That "work of God" declared by Lord Jesus is a complete package with nothing to change for God's gift is "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".
That "believe" in John 3:16 is entirely controlled by God alone.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Such a flippantly disrespectful response to the Christ saying "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
And you call yourself a Christian.
Oh, so scripture does not make sense to you.
I quoted the Word of God in Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:16, but you claim it does not make sense.
I carefully corelated Numbers 21:8-9 phrase to it's equivalent John 3:14-16 phrase, but you claim it does not make sense.
You claim to be a Christian, but a Christian understands the Word of God.
Now in this counsel, God the Father is the Primary Being who purposed Redemption, for it was He who chose who would be saved and redeemded Eph 1:3-11, He foreordained His Son 1 Pet 1:20; Rev 13:8; in time sent Him into the world 1 Jn 4:14403, and in doing so, the Father punished Christ for the sins of all those He loved and had chosen Isa 53:6,8,10 and rasised Him from the dead acts 3:26; Rom 10:9, and finally exalted Him to His right hand, and all Acts 2:33;5:31. All this was from Purposed by the Father from Eternity.
There is no correlation between those 2 verses. You are making stuff up from your own mind.
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