Westboro Baptist Church

[Joshua David]

Texus,

Yes, however you'll find (Ephesians 1) the salvation process works like this:1) Hear the truth
2) Hear the gospel of our SALVATION
3) Believe in Christ
4) Sealed with the Holy Spirit

You'll notice that an understanding of SALVATION requires an understanding of what we're saved FROM. Sin. You necessarily must address the homosexuality issue.

We do not relieve the Holy Spirit UNTIL understanding all these things. That's black and white in Ephesians 1:13.

I noticed that you didn't include any scripture to support your claim. Allow me.

Eph 1:11-14 [sup]11[/sup]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [sup]12[/sup]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[sup]13[/sup]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, <a name="15">
[sup]14[/sup]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Look, again, I am not saying that we should not call homosexuality as sin. Each of us had to come to the same conclusion that we are all sinners. All I am saying is that we must take care in what seeds we are planting, and how we plant them. Are we sowing a seed of Love and Grace, or are we sowing a seed of Hate and rejection. To claim that Westboro baptist church, and any "Christian" who has a judgmental and hateful attitude, is doing this in love is just ludacris

Joshua David

 

[TexUs]

I noticed that you didn't include any scripture to support your claim. Allow me.

Um, yes I did. I referenced Ephesians 1:13.
You're a big boy, I assume you know how to reference Scripture.

Look, again, I am not saying that we should not call homosexuality as sin. Each of us had to come to the same conclusion that we are all sinners. All I am saying is that we must take care in what seeds we are planting, and how we plant them. Are we sowing a seed of Love and Grace, or are we sowing a seed of Hate and rejection. To claim that Westboro baptist church, and any "Christian" who has a judgmental and hateful attitude, is doing this in love is just ludacris

You do realize the SBC revoked their Baptist status, right? They aren't a member of the SBC.

I'm pretty sure you won't find any church anywhere that supports what Westboro is doing. You're stereotyping all churches by that one church. No different than saying all Germans are like Hitler.

 

[HammerStone]

So?
You expect me to answer for how other people label this group?

No. I expect that we as Christians should work to drown out a voice like that. That's what's passed off as Christianity and the love of Christ.

Where the issue is coming in for me is that "normal" Christians play a devil's advocate with this situation that can end up being...well..the devil's real advocate. The Bible is clear on homosexuality. However, the Bible is also pretty clear on lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, slandering, adultery, usury, and a wide variety of other practices. For some reason - and probably the physical aspect - homosexuality is consistently singled out. The spectrum winds down from groups like the subject of this thread to a more docile form of telling the person how much of a sinner they are.

[bible=I Corinthians 6:9-10]
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
[/bible]

Homosexuality is one of many things in the above passage. Yet guess what?

[bible=I Corinthians 6:11]
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
[/bible]

I've heard/seen a lot of people give testimonies and I can pretty safely say that very few (if any) walk up and share how one day someone telling them how bad they are and how they'd go to hell for ______ sin made them stop and give their life to God. These folks might have come to terms with what they were doing and recognized it was wrong (be it whatever sin), but there is always that moment that God brings about first. It's called grace.

Jesus never said, "hey you get those burdens off of you and then come and talk." He simply said "bring 'em to me." (Matthew 11:28)

This is the mindset that is murdering Christianity. Sinners don't need to fix their lives and then come to God. They go to God and get things fixed. That's not offering a pass to anyone, that is listening to the Word of God. Otherwise, the opposite is a self-righteous (whether intended or not) attitude. You'll find out something real funny about people; they love to point the finger, but boy do they hate it when they're on the other end. Woe to the people who Christ will look at and say: "You ran your mouth so much to this man or woman that we almost lost them before they ever were found. You even did it in my name all over one sin in a sea of many, but I never knew you. Depart."

Contrary to the God hates the sin and not the sinner, you fix the sinner and not the sin.

 

[TexUs]

No. I expect that we as Christians should work to drown out a voice like that. That's what's passed off as Christianity and the love of Christ.

I believe it takes a majority to drown something out... Christians don't have a majority.

For some reason - and probably the physical aspect - homosexuality is consistently singled out.

I'd contend this is only because the homosexual/PC group makes it an issue to be singled out.
Again, I don't see "Liar Pride" parades in towns.

Personally, I don't bring it up unless someone else makes it an issue (like this thread).

 

[Joshua David]

Um, yes I did. I referenced Ephesians 1:13.
You're a big boy, I assume you know how to reference Scripture.


You do realize the SBC revoked their Baptist status, right? They aren't a member of the SBC.

I'm pretty sure you won't find any church anywhere that supports what Westboro is doing. You're stereotyping all churches by that one church. No different than saying all Germans are like Hitler.

Sorry I was right in the middle of typing up my reply so it came off not as I intended.

I really do apologize if I seemed to be broad stroking all Christians. I did not mean to, and if that is the way that I came off, please allow me to make a real heartfelt apology. But there are quite a few people that call themselves Christians that treat witnessing to homosexuals as the fact that before Homosexuals are good enough to come to God then they must change. Our focus should be on the person, not their sin.

Look at it this way, when ever Jesus healed somebody, he met them where they were, healed them, open their eyes as to who he was, and then and only then did he tell them to go and sin no more. Jesus followed this pattern every time. Jesus did not tell the person to go and sin no more until after they knew who he was. The point is this, Jesus met with the drunks and and tax collectors and the 'extreme sinners' of his day. He ate with them, he accepted them, he loved them. Did Jesus ever shy away from sin? No, and we shouldn't either. But Jesus loved the sinners whether they ever came to accept him. Should we be willing to love the homosexual even if they never change? I am not saying that we should accept their lifestyle, but you can show love to a person without accepting their lifestyle. Loving a person is a better witness and does more to show the Homosexual just who God is, than all the hate filled signs in the world combined.

Joshua David

 

[rockytopva]

The Westboro church is one I can neither praise or condemn...

To condemn them would be to justify evil...

To praise them would be to justify religious terrorism...


So I will leave that one alone...

 

[Foreigner]

"For some reason - and probably the physical aspect - homosexuality is consistently singled out." - Hammerstone



-- I believe that you are mistaken. In my church we have an active jail ministry, alcohol and drug abuse ministry, family abuse ministry, recovering from divorce ministry, seniors outreach ministry and a ministry for homosexuals.


The only ministry taking place outside the church walls is the jail ministry. All the rest, including the homosexual ministry, are in-house meaning that they only involve those that have decided to visit / attend / join our church.


The homosexual ministry is active only with those homosexuals who have chosen to attend or join our church. It is voluntary and active.


We do not go to homosexual rallies, protest homosexual events, do political work to undermine the homosexual agenda such as school initiatives or gay marraige.


But when asked - I repeat: when asked - we do state where we stand on specific issues. We provide scriptural backing for those positions and emphasize that, like all other sins, God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.


We also let them know - as with all people who are witnessed to - that God absolutely loves them just as much as He loves us and died in order to atone for their/our sins. All He asks is that we all turn from our sin and make Him our Savior.


As I have mentioned before, the only time I have ever gotten into a public discussion on homosexuality - with anyone, let alone a gay person - is when I have been approached.


We have three colleges, a vo-tech school and a 2-year business college here in town. At the start of every semester these schools allow booths to be set up. We have a booth for our church where people can come and ask questions, Our literature welcomes all and invites them for a visit.


There is NOTHING in our literature that mentions homosexuality or any of our specific ministries.


The 'confrontations' we have occur because a couple of these colleges have rather militant homosexual organizations and their members approach us and demand that we justify our positions on homosexuality. They then loudly proclaim that we are "homophobes," "haters," etc. etc. etc.


Other that these evil Westboro protestors I have never come across another organization calling themselves 'Christian" that have done anything remotely like this.


Homosexuality is treated just like any other sin. Except for the weirdos at Westboro, it is the practicers of that sin that make the discussion loud, confrontational, and boisterous...and public.




.

 

[Joshua David]

Foreigner,

First off, I think that you guys are doing a terrific job. You are truly showing God's love, you are sharing his message, and teaching the truth, as well as being a truly positive example of how to correctly witness. But while you may not have been aware of other 'christians' taking the same stance, as well as the same tactics, as the Westboro church, I have. It wasn't an isolated instance either, because I have ran across them in Portland, OR, as well as down in Monroe Lousiana. Westboro is just the most recognizable and well known of the groups.

Joshua David

 

[Foreigner]

Do you have the names of those churches or organizations or are they individuals?

 

[Joshua David]

Do you have the names of those churches or organizations or are they individuals?

They never said what their name was. All I saw was the signs. The group in Portland I ran into just walking down the street, going to a bookstore, they were picketing right outside a gay bar. I was able to confront that group, and did. The other group, in Lousiana, I ran into was standing on the corner of a Mall that I worked for as a security guard. I was told to stay away from them and by the time I got off, they were already gone. I suppose it could have been a group of individuals, and not from a single church but either way they represented themselves as Christians.

Joshua David

 

[TexUs]

They never said what their name was. All I saw was the signs. The group in Portland I ran into just walking down the street, going to a bookstore, they were picketing right outside a gay bar. I was able to confront that group, and did. The other group, in Lousiana, I ran into was standing on the corner of a Mall that I worked for as a security guard. I was told to stay away from them and by the time I got off, they were already gone. I suppose it could have been a group of individuals, and not from a single church but either way they represented themselves as Christians.

Joshua David

We're talking about a very small minority. If this were true of the majority it'd be a pandemic.

Also, how do you consider picketing against homosexuality any different than picketing against abortions?

 

[Joshua David]

We're talking about a very small minority. If this were true of the majority it'd be a pandemic.

Also, how do you consider picketing against homosexuality any different than picketing against abortions?

Because of the tone of the message. I am not against taking a stand against homosexuality. I am not against standing up for your beliefs. But since we are ambassadors for Christ, what does the world see when they see us or hear us? Let me ask you a question TexUs, does Jesus love or hate the homosexual, the person? He loves them. When the homosexual sees us however we are witnessing, do they feel loved or hated? That should be the difference.


People picketing an abortion clinic could fall in the same category. Would a person having an abortion seeing you, would they feel loved or hated? If we are not showing love, if all the other person can see is hate, then we are not showing Christ. Just because we may be telling the truth does not mean we are serving Christ, and we may be serving the devil.


Don't believe me... consider this.


Act 16:16-18 [sup]16[/sup]Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. [sup]17[/sup]This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” <a name="18">[sup]18[/sup]And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour.​

​

Was the fortune teller girl speaking the truth? Where they servants of the Most High God? Was Paul proclaiming the way of Salvation? YES! She was speaking the truth. But the spirit was wrong. She was interfering the people coming to God. Even though she was telling the truth, she was serving the devil. ​

​

In the same way, even though they may be speaking the truth, if what they are doing or saying is pushing people away from God, then they are not serving God. People need to feel loved before they accept a hard truth. If you don't show love first, then the truth will do nothing but push them further away from God. And their blood will be on your hands, and trust me God will have an accounting.​

​

Joshua David​

 

[Foreigner]

. I suppose it could have been a group of individuals, and not from a single church but either way they represented themselves as Christians.

Joshua David

-- The whole "representive themselves as Christians" reallly IS the problem. There are scores of churches and organizations whose beliefs and agendas run completely counter to what Jesus calls Christians to be.


In my state we have ELCA churches that support the ordination of gay clergy as long as they are involved in a "committed relationship" with another gay.


The homosexual act is fine for them as long as it is in a loving relationship: http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Communication-Services/News/Releases.aspx?a=4253


These clergy are then responsible for teaching the youth about God's love, His laws, and His expectations.


They are actually doing more damage than that small number of protesters because they are affecting entire congregations, including the youth, teaching them to either interpret the scripture incorrectly or to reject it outright to justify their positions.


These teachings will actually lead people to a blissful existance followed by eternal damnation.

 

[Joshua David]

-- The whole "representive themselves as Christians" reallly IS the problem. There are scores of churches and organizations whose beliefs and agendas run completely counter to what Jesus calls Christians to be.


In my state we have ELCA churches that support the ordination of gay clergy as long as they are involved in a "committed relationship" with another gay.


The homosexual act is fine for them as long as it is in a loving relationship: http://www.elca.org/...ses.aspx?a=4253


These clergy are then responsible for teaching the youth about God's love, His laws, and His expectations.


They are actually doing more damage than that small number of protesters because they are affecting entire congregations, including the youth, teaching them to either interpret the scripture incorrectly or to reject it outright to justify their positions.


These teachings will actually lead people to a blissful existance followed by eternal damnation.

Any church who legitimizes sin, or ignores sin, will be held accountable. I agree it is a sad, sad state of affairs. But on the plus side, I believe that it is just one more piece of evidence that suggests to me that ....

Soon and very soon, We are going to see the King... Soon and very soon, We are going to see the King... Soon and very soon, We are going to see the King... Hallelujah... Hallelujah.... We are going to see the King.

Joshua David

 

[TexUs]

"Abortion is MURDER!" signs are different than "Homosexuality is SIN!" signs?

LOL, there's a double standard.

Again, I won't disagree that "GOD HATES FAGS" signs- I will agree those aren't Christian.
However you've gone past Westboro now and are addressing anyone picketing homosexuality at all. And like I just demonstrated, there's a double standard.

 

[Joshua David]

"Abortion is MURDER!" signs are different than "Homosexuality is SIN!" signs?

LOL, there's a double standard.

Again, I won't disagree that "GOD HATES FAGS" signs- I will agree those aren't Christian.
However you've gone past Westboro now and are addressing anyone picketing homosexuality at all. And like I just demonstrated, there's a double standard.

You are absolutely right.. I am against all picketing homosexuality. It is impossible to really show the love of Christ by doing that, and unless we are able to show the love of Christ first, then all picketing does is push people further and further away from God. And that is WRONG!!!!!!!. I don't know what type of double standard you are implying that I am showing.

There is a way to oppose abortion and still show love. You can offer to pray for the girls going in. You can tell them that you love them, and you love their baby. You can show them that they are not alone, and there is help for them. You can really show them that God loves them, and wants what is best for them.

Or you can just hold us signs that say, "God hates you all, you babykillers", which one do you think is more effective?

Joshua David

 

[TexUs]

So why aren't you condemning the abortion protesters just as much as Westboro?

Again, double standard of hypocrisy going on, here.

I'd agree that there's more effective methods than protesting though but I can't back that up.
On one hand, someone set on abortion won't care.
Someone already questioning their decisions can be made to second guess themselves with signs.

 

[aspen]

So why aren't you condemning the abortion protesters just as much as Westboro?

Again, double standard of hypocrisy going on, here.

I'd agree that there's more effective methods than protesting though but I can't back that up.
On one hand, someone set on abortion won't care.
Someone already questioning their decisions can be made to second guess themselves with signs.

Offensive signs are not effective in fighting abortion, homosexuality, or protesting foreign wars. We are not called to offend people for Jesus - instead, we are called to love. Jesus's warning that the gospel will be offensive to nonbelievers is not the same as purposely offending people! The gospel, which is love is offensive to the hardhearted on it's own - without us acting like jerks.

There is some consistency for you, TexUs - of course we both know that all my efforts to be consistent are usually re-framed as me pushing my agenda, right? People you disagree with are either inconsistent hypocrites if they contradict their own posts or pushing an agenda if they are consistent.......and yet, I am called to be patient and loving anyway.

 

[Joshua David]

So why aren't you condemning the abortion protesters just as much as Westboro?

Again, double standard of hypocrisy going on, here.

I'd agree that there's more effective methods than protesting though but I can't back that up.
On one hand, someone set on abortion won't care.
Someone already questioning their decisions can be made to second guess themselves with signs.

If the main topic of the thread was picketing abortion clinics, I would have. Would you rather I go through and list every single thing that I think is wrong with the way that some people who call themselves christians act, by listing page upon page, and post multiple walls of text, or would you rather I stick to the topic?

You know tex, there is something to be said about your debating skills if you think sticking to the topic is a double standard hypocrisy.

Besides you are the one who brought up picketing abortions. And when you brought up picketing them I addressed the issue and said that if people picket abortion clinics the same way that people picket homosexuals, then they are just as much in the wrong. I think you are reaching a little much to make your points.

Joshua David

 

[TexUs]

If the main topic of the thread was picketing abortion clinics, I would have.

Then that's fair enough.

I can tell you first hand I've observed people that condemn Westboro but then support holding signs against abortion at street corners.
I'm saying, for people like that... It's hypocrisy.