I never liked going to church

[Ferris Bueller]

why does anyone go to church??? Is it not because He ordained, directed, and established their step to the church whether they planned it or not?

For the most part I would say, 'yes', that is how it is. There are, however, people who go to church who make it very obvious they don't belong in that church, and in time they leave for one reason or another.

I personally go by 'feel'. I now believe there is no reason to stay in a church that you are not comfortable in, thinking God wants you there for some purpose. I've done that too many times just to have it to end in disaster. The church is the pastor's. Either you like what he's doing, or you don't. Do yourself, and him a favor, if you don't like it, get out before there's trouble. You are not there to tell him how to 'do' church. He won't listen to you even if you were there to tell him how to do church. Don't make trouble for yourself and everyone else. Just get out before your discontentment erupts and the sparks fly. Let the Lord deal with him.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Yeah - I agree, but then if He ordained it, then does He not also tell people to go there?

The more I actually got to know the Lord and actually listen to Him the more I found out that He is a lot more involved in our lives than we understand!

Ps 37:23 The steps of a man are established by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

Prov 16: The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

The above is what I got to realize more and more as I listened to Him more and more. Yet as Prov 20:24 says, when you find out that He is even involved in the steps you take how can you fully understand the Lord's ways? He is just so much more involved. So when He told me that He was taking me back to church, He is going to do that, since He ordains, directs, and establishes my step. And that being the case, then why does anyone go to church??? Is it not because He ordained, directed, and established their step to the church whether they planned it or not?

For many the issue is one of dissonance.
dis•so•nance
(ˈdɪs ə nəns)

n.
1. inharmonious or harsh sound; discord; cacophony.
2. an unresolved, discordant musical chord or interval.
3. lack of harmony or agreement; incongruity.
[1565–75; < Late Latin dissonantia=dissonant- (see dissonant) + -ia -ia; see -ance]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

Without exception, the various congregations, denominations, and administrations that I have been involved with have had a cultural and ideological bias that was threatened by anything outside the parameters of their traditions, patterns, programs, routines, and regulations. A forgivable fault, granted, but the 'one-size-fits-all', 'like-it-or-lump-it' attitude of some leaderships is not conducive to spiritual growth.

 

[Karl Peters]

For many the issue is one of dissonance.
dis•so•nance
(ˈdɪs ə nəns)

n.
1. inharmonious or harsh sound; discord; cacophony.
2. an unresolved, discordant musical chord or interval.
3. lack of harmony or agreement; incongruity.
[1565–75; < Late Latin dissonantia=dissonant- (see dissonant) + -ia -ia; see -ance]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

Without exception, the various congregations, denominations, and administrations that I have been involved with have had a cultural and ideological bias that was threatened by anything outside the parameters of their traditions, patterns, programs, routines, and regulations. A forgivable fault, granted, but the 'one-size-fits-all', 'like-it-or-lump-it' attitude of some leaderships is not conducive to spiritual growth.

Of course there is a lot more to it than just some members not getting along with others so that all the members are in "harmony" Frankly, my not wanting to go to church has nothing to do with whether the members of the church are getting along of not!!! I might, and do like it when I find some people going to the church that I do get along with, but since I am not someone looking to get "ahead" at church" I am certainly not concerned about the cliques going on at any church.

However with that being said, there is a problem that I see that is exactly the real reason behind what you fancifully call "dissonance". And it has to do with His people not actually listening to Him, our Lord Jesus Christ!!!!

That is a huge problem!!! And it results in the church working together like they are supposed to.

That is, that the Lord made people for a purpose with that purpose being His plan - even very personal plan for each of us!

To know what we should be doing requires that we actually seek Him and obey - as the song goes 'trust and obey, there is no other way'.

Now He tells me what church I need to go to. So when I wanted to go to a smaller more Spirit filled church because I have seen from my experience that often that is where to find more people who listen more closely to Him, He instead wanted me to go to a large more conservative but still a church that considered themselves to be spirit filled church. Ok, so I went where He said when He told me to, whether I wanted to or not. Fortunately for me, He did get me into ministries at the church (healing ministries) where I could find the members more in tuned with hearing the Lord regularly. That is I found people who regularly heard from Him and because they did regularly hear from Him He like to put them in the healing ministries.

Ex 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

There is a strong connection with seeking and listening to the voice of the Lord they God and seeing healing. So it is that He tends to put those who "diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord" into the healing ministries that He personally puts together. So He told me to do that for five years. But what about the Christians that don't actually listen to Him. Are they going to the correct Christian church? And they in the correct ministries? Are they playing the right instrument at church so as to have "dissonance" at the churches we attend?

So whether I like going to church or not is so important, but whether I will do what He tells me. There is a parable Jesus tells in the Bible where there are two sons and when the father tells them to go work in the vineyard one says he will not go but he does goes, but the other says he will go but he doesn't go. So who did the will of the Fathers?

Mat 21:28 - 31But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ “And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. “The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. “Which of the two did the will of his father?” They *said, “The first.” Jesus *said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

The Lord has often talked to me and compared me to the son who said "I will not; but afterwards regretted it and went". Yet there was something else the Lord told me. He pointed out that in the story there were only two sons!!! That many 'Christians' think they are the son who heard the Father tell the to go to church and they just went right off and joyfully went to church, but there were only two sons in the story and that was not a son of His! That is to say that some go to church, not because He told them to go work in the field but because they have other reasons for being in the vineyard.

 

[Stumpmaster]

what you fancifully call "dissonance".

Actually, Karl, the word "dissonance" is not as fanciful as you might think, but is rather useful in the identification and remedy of problematic conditions.

You may have come across the term "cognitive dissonance" and possibly be aware of its meaning, but to nurture further discussion I'll post it here:
cog′nitive dis′sonance

n.
anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like, as when one likes a person but disapproves of one of his or her habits.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

Wkpd Quote: Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia
Coping with the nuances of contradictory ideas or experiences is mentally stressful. It requires energy and effort to sit with those seemingly opposite things that all seem true. Festinger argued that some people would inevitably resolve dissonance by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about obedience to God's direction. I've lost count of the times God has sent me into congregations and situations that I would normally avoid. In every case the adversities and hardships endured have served to promote spiritual growth.

Jer 17:7-10 Blessed are they who trust in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. (8) For they shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreads out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat comes, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. (9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (10) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give everyone according to their ways, and according to the fruit of their doings.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

I like the band of my church and the way it is

 

[Karl Peters]

Actually, Karl, the word "dissonance" is not as fanciful as you might think, but is rather useful in the identification and remedy of problematic conditions.

You may have come across the term "cognitive dissonance" and possibly be aware of its meaning, but to nurture further discussion I'll post it here:
cog′nitive dis′sonance

n.
anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like, as when one likes a person but disapproves of one of his or her habits.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

Wkpd Quote: Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia
Coping with the nuances of contradictory ideas or experiences is mentally stressful. It requires energy and effort to sit with those seemingly opposite things that all seem true. Festinger argued that some people would inevitably resolve dissonance by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about obedience to God's direction. I've lost count of the times God has sent me into congregations and situations that I would normally avoid. In every case the adversities and hardships endured have served to promote spiritual growth.

Jer 17:7-10 Blessed are they who trust in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. (8) For they shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreads out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat comes, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. (9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (10) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give everyone according to their ways, and according to the fruit of their doings.

Hey - I don't really mind someone using whatever words they want. The Scriptures explain that we are not to argue over semantics. Also, for the most part I appreciate the point behind the prior thread, where lack of harmony (dissonance) often makes church a place we don't want to go to. Is that the people there often seem fake:

the people at church seem extremely nice, but they often seem fake

I have a bachelor's degree, and so have been around some people that like to use a variety of words in their personal vocabulary. It's all fine, but I have also seen where people like to use their vocabulary as a way of puffing themselves up (being fake). For example let me compare two professors I had - one had his doctorate in political science and he started off the first class boasting about his degree and vocabulary, and said some of the most ridiculous things - like he was telling the class that democracy means death and if anyone wanted to challenge him he would gladly demean them. I dropped that class asap, and was the only class I dropped in my four years there. No use learning from someone like him. On the other hand I had an English class (and I was always a math person instead of an language person) who really impressed me. He started off by explaining that the purpose of language, any language, was to facilitate communication. He explained that while he had his doctorate (just like the political science professor) he did not want people calling him 'Doctor' because 'Doctor' in our language is typically used to mean a medical doctor. So to use it for him is to cause confusion not clarity. Now he was that smart man, not the political science profess who was interested in puffing himself up.

On that same line - when I listen to the Lord He (though being God is on a whole different level of intelligence that us mere people) almost never uses larger words. In fact the genius of the Lord is more in who wonderfully he puts together very simple words to mean so much, and not in using words that tend to puff Himself up. He indeed tends to come across like He comes across in the Bible, with little sayings and parables and not by trying to impress me with His personal vocabulary.

For example consider this saying by Jesus:

Mat 12:36,37 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

It is a pretty easy bit of writing to read, but what an incredibly deep meaning!

And when He talks to me personally, He never seems to use difficult words but provides saying that get me thinking. Like this saying He gave me:

PRIDE IS A SPIRIT THAT TELLS YOU “YOU’RE DOING GREAT”, AND YOU CAN GET INTO THAT SPIRIT, SO TO SPEAK. CONFIDENCE COMES FROM A SPIRIT THAT SAYS “YOU’RE DOING GOOD”, AND YOU CAN GET INTO THAT SPIRIT, SO TO SPEAK.” SO, ARE YOU TRYING TO DO GOOD, OR ARE YOU TRYING TO BE GREAT? WHAT DO YOU HEAR BEFORE YOU SPEAK?

When we speak we don't need to try to sound "Great" we just need to try and do good. :)

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hey - I don't really mind someone using whatever words they want. The Scriptures explain that we are not to argue over semantics. Also, for the most part I appreciate the point behind the prior thread, where lack of harmony (dissonance) often makes church a place we don't want to go to. Is that the people there often seem fake:



I have a bachelor's degree, and so have been around some people that like to use a variety of words in their personal vocabulary. It's all fine, but I have also seen where people like to use their vocabulary as a way of puffing themselves up (being fake). For example let me compare two professors I had - one had his doctorate in political science and he started off the first class boasting about his degree and vocabulary, and said some of the most ridiculous things - like he was telling the class that democracy means death and if anyone wanted to challenge him he would gladly demean them. I dropped that class asap, and was the only class I dropped in my four years there. No use learning from someone like him. On the other hand I had an English class (and I was always a math person instead of an language person) who really impressed me. He started off by explaining that the purpose of language, any language, was to facilitate communication. He explained that while he had his doctorate (just like the political science professor) he did not want people calling him 'Doctor' because 'Doctor' in our language is typically used to mean a medical doctor. So to use it for him is to cause confusion not clarity. Now he was that smart man, not the political science profess who was interested in puffing himself up.

On that same line - when I listen to the Lord He (though being God is on a whole different level of intelligence that us mere people) almost never uses larger words. In fact the genius of the Lord is more in who wonderfully he puts together very simple words to mean so much, and not in using words that tend to puff Himself up. He indeed tends to come across like He comes across in the Bible, with little sayings and parables and not by trying to impress me with His personal vocabulary.

For example consider this saying by Jesus:

Mat 12:36,37 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

It is a pretty easy bit of writing to read, but what an incredibly deep meaning!

And when He talks to me personally, He never seems to use difficult words but provides saying that get me thinking. Like this saying He gave me:

PRIDE IS A SPIRIT THAT TELLS YOU “YOU’RE DOING GREAT”, AND YOU CAN GET INTO THAT SPIRIT, SO TO SPEAK. CONFIDENCE COMES FROM A SPIRIT THAT SAYS “YOU’RE DOING GOOD”, AND YOU CAN GET INTO THAT SPIRIT, SO TO SPEAK.” SO, ARE YOU TRYING TO DO GOOD, OR ARE YOU TRYING TO BE GREAT? WHAT DO YOU HEAR BEFORE YOU SPEAK?

When we speak we don't need to try to sound "Great" we just need to try and do good. :)

Agreed. The loquacity of verbose persons is often exacerbated by their circumlocution.

 

[Addy]

Agreed. The loquacity of verbose persons is often exacerbated by their circumlocution.

Hey... I'm impressed with myself... I would only have to look up the meaning of three words in one sentence... LOL

 

[marks]

Oh - the people at church seem extremely nice, but they often seem fake. They always have. Even when I was little they seemed fake. The Lord, He is not fake. He is real, and I mean that in both many ways. You can just talk to Him. He is weird. That's for sure, but He is not fake. I rarely understand the full meaning of what He tells me, because His thoughts are not my thoughts, but He is interesting, incredible, and not fake.

To me, church is firstly about what I can give to others who are there. Being genuine with others sharing God's love with them provides an avenue for God to minister to them.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Agreed. The loquacity of verbose persons is often exacerbated by their circumlocution.

How you do bloviate!

:)

 

[marks]

So consider??? How do you think Jesus Himself felt about going to Jerusalem (the main meeting place for God's people at that time)?? He went - because He was always going to do what the Father asked, but don't think He was all that excited to go there!!

The zeal for His Father's house consumed Him. Jesus was passionate about the temple.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He went - because He was always going to do what the Father asked, but don't think He was all that excited to go there!!

Why not? That was where God would meet with men on earth. Wouldn't Jesus be genuinely pleased to do all the Father desired?

Myself, I think Jesus would have loved being at the temple teaching the people.

I can just imagine Him, waking early, making that walk fomm Bethany through though the olive trees and vineyards to the temple to teach, knowing that in a few days, He's be looking at that temple from a cross as they killed Him.

He cried telling them it would all be destroyed, but I realize He was crying for them.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This thread was not my idea!! Why do care to tell a bunch of Christians that I don't really like going to church, and that He is again telling me to go, so He seems like my dad when I was a child.

:)

 

[marks]

it is no good trying to not be honest with Him.

For me, this highlights perhaps the biggest change in my relationship with God. I don't even really bother to "tell Him about myself" anymore, just try to listen to what He says about me. I start to talk about myself to God, I feel foolish immediately, like there something I can educate God about! And about myself! Like I know myself better than God knows me? No.

I didn't understand that as well when I was just a kid, but I did. There was something fake in the way people were acting at church, and the same people did not act fake at regular school. So even as a kid, I could have regular conversation with people and make real friends and we could talk about real things.

With me, I didn't have too many friends in school. I'm a bit autistic, and my abusive childhood left me unable to relate to others. I did have some friends I was pretty tight with. No one has ever come close to the friend I have in Jesus.

It's doesn't really seem like something I need to make a big deal about, but it is a big deal that He cares, knows, and

This is how I think too. The things God does in my life, in me, are pretty amazing to begin with, but I feel the same way, that the Creator of everything loves me, wants me, shares life with me! That's the most amazing of all!

Much love!

 

[marks]

It does seem like the Pastor at the church makes all the difference. I know that almost everyone loves the pastor at the church that I go to, and many tell me that he is the reason they go there. While I think he is really good and a enjoyable speaker, I don't go there because of that. I go there because the Lord told me to go there, period!! And I actually suspect, and for good reasons, that the Lord is more in control of what is going on that we know! I mean - who did make the pastor, but him in charge, give him ideas for the sermons, and who does actually send His Holy Spirit to speak to our spirit, whether we know it or not?

This sounds like my previous pastor. I say previous because he passed away last July. I've never known a more loving human.

The beautiful thing was that this was a reasonably small church, and I got to know him over the course of 13 years there. God wanted me next to a loving man so I could learn how to be that.

My wife and I, when we were trying various churches, we walked into this one, and before we had met anyone, or gone past the lobby, we both KNEW it was our new home. And then I met Pastor Mark, and learned why that was so.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Perhaps by putting the right person as the pastor of the church and getting our spirit to be receptive to him.

What do you think? Could that actually be the case?

I think so.

1 Peter 5:1-4 KJV
1) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2) Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4) And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

This word translated here "heritage" can also be translated "allotment", the idea being that God appoints to a pastor who will be their flock.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The more I actually got to know the Lord and actually listen to Him the more I found out that He is a lot more involved in our lives than we understand!

Just so!

:)

Every last little bit. There is nothing in my life that does not interest my Father.

Much love!