No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[Randy Kluth]

Yes being spared God's wrath was told to the faithful church, Philadelphia. But isn't the wrath of God released in the Seven Bowls? Therefore, if the Seventh Trumpet is the last trumpet, then we will be spared God's wrath - but that would also void Post-trib views as well.

Nowhere are the saints of God promised they would not suffer in this world. All of the suffering in this world by men has come from God's wrath directed at men. When we are promised exclusion from God's wrath, I believe it is referring to Eternal Punishment. Nor are we being punished simply because we experience the *effects* of God's wrath directed towards others.

For example, I believe God demonstrates His wrath towards wicked men on earth presently through storms, through natural disasters, through viruses, through wars, etc. But the Church goes through these times, and through these negative experiences not because God's wrath is directed at *us,* but only because like His Son we have to be here as witnesses to the means of repentance and forgiveness. We also are here to testify against the sins of men that bring these horrible experiences down upon the innocent.

There is no question that some things God has exempted from us. One situation involved only one of seven churches--the church at Philadelphia. But there were other occasions. For example, Jesus told his followers they could avoid the destruction of Jerusalem when the Romans came in 70 AD. This judgment was not designed to destroy Jewish believers!

But later, Jewish believers continued to suffer the side effects of being Jews in a country under God's judgment. They lost their homes, their finances, their belongings, their material happiness. They suffered the time of God's wrath against Israel, even though it was not directed at them. Jesus, in his Olivet Discourse, warned them that these things were coming, so they could escape some of it, but not all of it.

Other Pre-tribbers say the Church is not seen after Rev. 4:1, when the angel tells John to "come up here" - as if that is symbolic for the Church.
There is a lot of made up stuff, a half dozen or more views with each having their supportive verses to back them up.
I am a Mid- Tribber but would honestly prefer the Pre-trib view to be correct.

You should prefer what the Bible states. And 2 Thes 2 is unmistakable, because it directly deals with this question. It says that any premature claims to the coming of the Kingdom should be discounted, because the revelation of Antichrist must come 1st. There is no other way to legitimately read this. Even though I'm paraphrasing it, that is precisely what Paul said.

I see Jesus returning as He ascended and every eye seeing Him. He instructs his angels to separate the wheat from the chaff, that's the rapture. Two men in a field, one is taken and the other left behind.

Both men in the field were taken captive by the Romans in 70 AD. One was left alive to till the fields for the Romans. The other was taken away into captivity, or deported.

The Jews see Him and immediately realize their error and mourn. This could be the fulfillment of Romans 11 and prior to this, The Two Witnesses who prophesy/evangelize the Jews and the world as well logically come 1260 days prior to Christ. It may be that the last trumpet sounds simultaneously when these Two rise from the dead?
And then there is the issue about a Temple having to be built, which to me would be counterproductive and an abomination to God's plan
to save a remnant Jewish population, especially since He is sending Two Witnesses to evangelize them. This temple could not be holy, since we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. So the Antichrist standing in a holy place to me disproves a Jewish Temple. A Christian church would be a holy place with a holy congregation.

So many of us think we have it figured out and I have say, after many years of study, I don't.

You are one of the more diplomatic Christians I see on these forums. I agree with you on the temple matter--the OT temple is over and done. The real temple always has been in heaven. Heaven is the dwelling place of God. He also dwells in His Church.

I've studied this for many years, and I quite frankly love the subject. I've had to change my views on many matters. Thanks for entering into the discussion. You can take what I say with a grain of salt, if you wish? :)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Luke 21:19-24 KJV
19) In your patience possess ye your souls.
20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:15-29 KJV
15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25) Behold, I have told you before.
26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

These are two different prophecies. Luke speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews, and the result being captivity among the nations. Matthew speaks of the Abomination of Desolation, and the greatest affliction of all time, and the result being the near destruction of humanity, ended when Jesus returns.

At least you're not ignoring Luke 21 Mark! ;) Thank you for that!

I don't believe two versions of the same Discourse are "different prophecies." Impossible. They sound different to you because someone has inserted a doctrine that requires them to be "different." But they aren't. I've studied every single verse in all of the synoptic Gospels, and they all say the same things using different words, sometimes ommitting and sometimes adding certain things. Not a single idea is changed from one version to another. If you think it's different, I can show you it's not!

My point was as you indicated, Luke 21 spoke of the scattering of the Jews, the "punishment" of the Jews, which Jesus referred to as the "Great Tribulation," or the "Great Distress." All 3 versions of this Discourse refer to this period of time, which Luke describes as starting in 70 AD, the destruction of the temple, and ends at the return of Christ.

That was the point! That is how the "Great Tribulation" was defined by Jesus. Splitting up the different versions into different discourses doesn't work for me. They are all the exact same Discourse!

But thanks for addressing it directly nonetheless. I'm acquainted with this particular answer. God bless.

 

[marks]

You have bought into a belief based upon "Fear" for your wife, and her being hurt during a tribulation period?

You have purchased the ticket of Dispensationalism's fear through propaganda, and it worked

Nonsense, and if you ever want to stop your nonsense we can discuss it.

But if you want to just toss out mindless accusations, it's going to get pretty dull pretty fast.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't really have a preference, but I am pre-trib essentially. Well, I do have a preference for pre-trib for my wife's sake. I suppose I'm being needlessly protective.

Believe me, I understand this one! But it isn't always noble to ignore truth for the sake of a wife. ;)

I'm not going to say I've got it all figured out, but I've come to make some observations over the years. One of them is that I should take a very literal approach to what the Bible says. 3 days and 3 nights in a great sea creature is 3 days and 3 ights spent in the belly of a fish. 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth is again just that. 1000 years is 1000 years. 12,000 from the tribe of Judah are 12,000 men who descended from that man. That kind of thing.

When the 144,000 are sealed the earth is devoid of other believers. These are "the servants of God". Exclusive language. This is how I come to Scripture. These are sealed before the harm of the 70th week begins, and are the only servants of God. We might ask, where are the rest? And there they are, standing before the throne of God in heaven. And then the 70th week begins.

Much love!

I believe the Bible too, and I realize that's what you're really saying. But I don't think it's good to be an ultra-literalist, taking obviously-symbolic things literally. When you see 4 strange beasts in the book of Daniel, that is seen in a vision, you don't have to think that 4 strange beasts will appear as such literally. In context, they are being used symbolically.

Some things, like the 144,000, seem symbolic to me. The 12 tribes of Israel are forever gone. This implies a symbolic meaning to me.

Other things we need to take literally, such as Jesus' literal bodily resurrection, his virgin birth, our future immortalization, etc. Context is king.

 

[marks]

They sound different to you because someone has inserted a doctrine that requires them to be "different."

Why make that assumption? You are not correct. What discussion can we have when you are responding not to me, but to your assumptions of me?

The reality is that I've compared these discourses and concluded that while there is overlap, there are distinct differences.

Much love!

 

[Truth]

I have been through to many Tribulation threads, We as Belivers are not going to be subjected to Gods Wrath!!!!!
It is not Gods Wrath that is placed on the World, it is the Wrath of Satan, After the Tribulation!!!!! then Gods Wrath is Poured Out. Satan is the one who at this time is in control of all Governmental Authorities, they are the ones placeing the sufferings on mankind!

 

[marks]

But it isn't always noble to ignore truth for the sake of a wife.

Man! Now I'm ignoring truth!

I'm getting tired of this forum! I'm getting this nonsense more and more!

Try to have an intelligent discussion and it's filled with stuff like this!

Sorry for unloading on you! It's not just you, I'm getting this a lot lately. Try to present a point of view, and people just start in . . .

Oh well!!

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Man! Now I'm ignoring truth!

I'm getting tired of this forum! I'm getting this nonsense more and more!

Try to have an intelligent discussion and it's filled with stuff like this!

Sorry for unloading on you! It's not just you, I'm getting this a lot lately. Try to present a point of view, and people just start in . . .

Oh well!!

Much love!

In post #57 you clearly stated you have a preference for a pre-trib rapture for (Your Wifes Sake)

As you falsely accuse others of non-sense, yes you openly made the claim

You dont stand alone, as dispensationalism sells their teaching based on fear of a future tribulation and antichrist

The Pre-Trib rapture is sold based upon "Fear"

Yes it was the many movies in the 70's-80's-90's played every Friday & Saturdsy nights in Churches around the country, antichrist death squads chasing down Christian's, no medical delivered in emergency rooms unless the mark was received, guillotines on every street corner (Fabricated Propaganda)

Dispensationalism's top propaganda "Film Series" with links for those that desire to take a peek, there are many "Smiles"

1972 A Thief In The Night

1978 A Distant Thunder

1981 Image Of The Beast

1983 The Prodigal Planet

 

[Truth7t7]

I have been through to many Tribulation threads, We as Belivers are not going to be subjected to Gods Wrath!!!!!
It is not Gods Wrath that is placed on the World, it is the Wrath of Satan, After the Tribulation!!!!! then Gods Wrath is Poured Out. Satan is the one who at this time is in control of all Governmental Authorities, they are the ones placeing the sufferings on mankind!

What happened to (Mountain Man Bob)?

 

[amigo de christo]

First let us with great joy examine Jesus own words .
He tells us we are appointed unto tribulation .
Paul later confirms this .
The early church took a beating . Many were killed . Paul himself was beaten with a mean cat of nine tails five times .
Three times with rods . Early in acts we see the apostels beaten at least twice .
To my knowledge every apostel was killed , cept john .
Now let us go on through history . How many christains through the ages
were persecuted , suffered and even killed . Quite a few .
Look around at today . Many still are in other countries .
Yet for some reason we think we wont , that somehow we wont have to go through tribulation .
Its true we are not appointed unto the wrath of GOD . That is true .
But unto tribulation , we sure are . So lace up the boots , cause its coming our way in time .

 

[Truth7t7]

Some things, like the 144,000, seem symbolic to me. The 12 tribes of Israel are forever gone. This implies a symbolic meaning to me.

James 1:1KJV
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

 

[marks]

I don't believe two versions of the same Discourse are "different prophecies." Impossible. They sound different to you because someone has inserted a doctrine that requires them to be "different." But they aren't. I've studied every single verse in all of the synoptic Gospels, and they all say the same things using different words, sometimes ommitting and sometimes adding certain things. Not a single idea is changed from one version to another. If you think it's different, I can show you it's not!

I can show you they are.

Different things are prophesied. But if you are convinced that the same things are being prophesied in different words, I'd be interested in your authority for saying that is so.

What I've found over many many years is that differences in interpretations of the Bible, IF someone is willing to follow a reasoned debate all the way to the conclusions, where we both decide we know exactly why the one person sees it this way, while the other person sees it that way, it always comes to a verse that one person says should be understood just how it reads, while the other says that it should be understood differently.

For instance the OSAS debate, that "now we are the children of God . . . when we see Him we will be like Him", those who believe the saved may yet be lost will not accept this verse the way it reads. They will need to change it to make it conditional, like their view.

Luke 21:10-25 KJV
10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13) And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14) Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18) But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19) In your patience possess ye your souls.
20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Before these things? Flee because of the AOD or the armies? The armies were AD 70, the AOD is end of age. Flee to the mountains and not the wilderness? The mountains in AD 70, the wilderness end of age. Be regathered when Jesus comes or be led captive into all nations?

I find that when I hold to the distinctions that I see, I see harmony with other prophecies, with doctrines, and when I don't, then I find conflicts.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

And when it comes our way , REJOICE WHEN YE ARE PERSECUTED FOR HIS NAME SAKE .
They did . Rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name .
Get ready we will also be betrayed and that by many who even call themselves christain .
This all inclusive pipe dream of theirs , the one i keep warning us about . WHERE YA think this is headed .
TO all out persectuion against the ones who wont conform to it .
Yep if we dont honor sins or if we say JESUS is the only way , they wont like it .
And i mean all the religoins of the world as well as secular . THEY MERGING even now .
Nimrod is building him an all inclusive we are one temple . THEY own all inclusive all path accepting way to heaven .
WHEN IN TRUTH , JESUS WAS and IS THE ONLY WAY . But that will soon be deemed to offensive to say
to this new all inclusive every religoin is finding god in its own way , generation .
I have a lil video i think we might just wanna peek at . Some even on this site , will in the time to come
turn ones like me in . ITS COMING and it WONT be stopped . SO my advice is this
MARVEL NOT if the world hates us , and stop trying to be a friend of the world and accepting its sins
and start rather preaching JESUS and build one another up with actual biblical reminders of truth .

 

[marks]

In post #57 you clearly stated you have a preference for a pre-trib rapture for (Your Wifes Sake)

As you falsely accuse others of non-sense, yes you openly made the claim

You dont stand alone, as dispensationalism sells their teaching based on fear of a future tribulation and antichrist

Get a grip! Take what I said in context!

We can either discuss the Scriptural points, or you can just go on blaring about me.

Up to you.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

And when it comes our way , REJOICE WHEN YE ARE PERSECUTED FOR HIS NAME SAKE .
They did . Rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name .
Get ready we will also be betrayed and that by many who even call themselves christain .
This all inclusive pipe dream of theirs , the one i keep warning us about . WHERE YA think this is headed .
TO all out persectuion against the ones who wont conform to it .
Yep if we dont honor sins or if we say JESUS is the only way , they wont like it .
And i mean all the religoins of the world as well as secular . THEY MERGING even now .
Nimrod is building him an all inclusive we are one temple . THEY own all inclusive all path accepting way to heaven .
WHEN IN TRUTH , JESUS WAS and IS THE ONLY WAY . But that will soon be deemed to offensive to say
to this new all inclusive every religoin is finding god in its own way , generation .
I have a lil video i think we might just wanna peek at . Some even on this site , will in the time to come
turn ones like me in . ITS COMING and it WONT be stopped . SO my advice is this
MARVEL NOT if the world hates us , and stop trying to be a friend of the world and accepting its sins
and start rather preaching JESUS and build one another up with actual biblical reminders of truth .

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[amigo de christo]

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Yes indeed this is coming as well .
But first the beast , his sytem and his kings are gonna butcher them a lotta lambs . This may seem hard to believe .
But go to and behold the inner door of the all inclusive chambers of the harlot . AND SEE what you see within .
SO i went and looked into her chambers and there were many christains , muslims , buddits , and all gathering
the religoins to be as one . I saw popes kissing korans and budda statues and calling it love , peace and unity .
Go to and behold the inner door of even the protestant realm .
SO i went and beheld and seen men and leaders leading their flocks right into she who leads in the all inclusive lie .
And they were chanting love , and changing the gosple into a social justice , green deal , good works gospel .
And they were appointing those who walk in darkness to lead and teach the churches . calling evil good and good evil .
GO to and behold jersualem on the earth . And i saw but the same thing . that she too was leading the world right into
this we are one religion . And i saw protestants saying , HEY , these are the children of GOD , touch not the annointed ones of GOD .
And i wept and i wept . For so few can see the direction and so many are headed right into the DELUSION of the all inclusion .

 

[marks]

I believe the Bible too, and I realize that's what you're really saying. But I don't think it's good to be an ultra-literalist, taking obviously-symbolic things literally. When you see 4 strange beasts in the book of Daniel, that is seen in a vision, you don't have to think that 4 strange beasts will appear as such literally. In context, they are being used symbolically.

Some things, like the 144,000, seem symbolic to me. The 12 tribes of Israel are forever gone. This implies a symbolic meaning to me.

Other things we need to take literally, such as Jesus' literal bodily resurrection, his virgin birth, our future immortalization, etc. Context is king.

Where I pose the question is when we say, "obviously symbolic". What's obvious to you and what is obvious to me may be very different. I like to look for where the Bible calls things symbols, and where the Bible tells me what those symbols mean, and then I'm not having to guess.

The beasts that Daniel saw in his vision, we have Scriptural authority that these are symbolic, and what the symbols refer to.

Daniel 7:17 KJV
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Daniel 7:23-24 KJV
23) Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24) And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

All I need to do is look at what the Bible says about itself.

When I come to the 144,000, I find no such language, only a prophetic narrative as it it were actually happening as described. I find that what this narrative communicates fits very well with the rest of the Bible. I don't have any difficulty with the idea that God is able to identify and seal 12,000 men who are descended from each of 12 patriarchs (or more precisely, 11, as Manasseh replaces Dan in this list).

Revelation 7:3-10 KJV
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

I don't see any mention of this being symbolic, nor of what those symbols would mean.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why make that assumption? You are not correct. What discussion can we have when you are responding not to me, but to your assumptions of me?

The reality is that I've compared these discourses and concluded that while there is overlap, there are distinct differences.

Much love!

Let's not make this personal? Let's discuss the issue of whether the synoptic versions of the Olivet Discourse are saying 3 different things or not? This is my concern, and is not personal towards you. As I said, I've dealt with this before, and in great detail. On another forum, I've had just this discussion. But the person I spoke with didn't take it personally, as you are. That person simply rejected my arguments, which you are free to do. Just try to prove your points, instead of just assert them?

 

[amigo de christo]

Where I pose the question is when we say, "obviously symbolic". What's obvious to you and what is obvious to me may be very different. I like to look for where the Bible calls things symbols, and where the Bible tells me what those symbols mean, and then I'm not having to guess.

The beasts that Daniel saw in his vision, we have Scriptural authority that these are symbolic, and what the symbols refer to.

Daniel 7:17 KJV
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Daniel 7:23-24 KJV
23) Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24) And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

All I need to do is look at what the Bible says about itself.

When I come to the 144,000, I find no such language, only a prophetic narrative as it it were actually happening as described. I find that what this narrative communicates fits very well with the rest of the Bible. I don't have any difficulty with the idea that God is able to identify and seal 12,000 men who are descended from each of 12 patriarchs (or more precisely, 11, as Manasseh replaces Dan in this list).

Revelation 7:3-10 KJV
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

I don't see any mention of this being symbolic, nor of what those symbols would mean.

Much love!

But first the beast , his sytem and his kings are gonna butcher them a lotta lambs . This may seem hard to believe .
But go to and behold the inner door of the all inclusive chambers of the harlot . AND SEE what you see within .
SO i went and looked into her chambers and there were many christains , muslims , buddits , and all gathering
the religoins to be as one . I saw popes kissing korans and budda statues and calling it love , peace and unity .
Go to and behold the inner door of even the protestant realm .
SO i went and beheld and seen men and leaders leading their flocks right into she who leads in the all inclusive lie .
And they were chanting love , and changing the gosple into a social justice , green deal , good works gospel .
And they were appointing those who walk in darkness to lead and teach the churches . calling evil good and good evil .
GO to and behold jersualem on the earth . And i saw but the same thing . that she too was leading the world right into
this we are one religion . And i saw protestants saying , HEY , these are the children of GOD , touch not the annointed ones of GOD .
And i wept and i wept . For so few can see the direction and so many are headed right into the DELUSION of the all inclusion .

 

[Randy Kluth]

Man! Now I'm ignoring truth!

I'm getting tired of this forum! I'm getting this nonsense more and more!

Try to have an intelligent discussion and it's filled with stuff like this!

Sorry for unloading on you! It's not just you, I'm getting this a lot lately. Try to present a point of view, and people just start in . . .

Oh well!!

Much love!

Cop out. I included a smiley, joking face. If you can't read an emoticon, then you can't engage in a responsible discussion.

I was joking! But there is some reality in it. I tend to pretty much take the blame for things I don't really feel I'm guilty for just to have peace with my wife. These are the realities of marriage, right? Please get off your high horse, and be civil. We're brothers, and none of this is deeper than skin deep to me.