OSAS Question

[kcnalp]

Does a christian. born again, justified and made alive in Christ really Need John 3: 16?

Well, as one OSASer here said, "If I died when I didn’t believe I would have gone to Heaven because there was One Time That I DID Believe.....that’s all it takes...."

How convenient, until Judgment Day that is.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, as one OSASer here said, "If I died when I didn’t believe I would have gone to Heaven because there was One Time That I DID Believe.....that’s all it takes...."

How convenient, until Judgment Day that is.

You did not answer my question

Why does a true believer need John 3: 16

 

[kcnalp]

You did not answer my question

Why does a true believer need John 3: 16

I think your question is totally ignorant.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think your question is totally ignorant.

I think you thinking a christian needs John 3: 16 IS CONFUSING

Can you answer why you think we need it?

 

[kcnalp]

I think you thinking a christian needs John 3: 16 IS CONFUSING

Can you answer why you think we need it?

OSASers don't need John 3:16. They can be saved regardless.

As one OSASer here said, "If I died when I didn’t believe I would have gone to Heaven because there was One Time That I DID Believe.....that’s all it takes...."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OSASers don't need John 3:16. They can be saved regardless.

As one OSASer here said, "If I died when I didn’t believe I would have gone to Heaven because there was One Time That I DID Believe.....that’s all it takes...."

So basically you made a statement yet you can not explain why believers need John 3:16. Just another Anti OSAS rant

good day sir

 

[kcnalp]

So basically you made a statement yet you can not explain why believers need John 3:16. Just another Anti OSAS rant

good day sir

I quoted an OSASer here. It's self explanatory.

"If I died when I didn’t believe I would have gone to Heaven because there was One Time That I DID Believe.....that’s all it takes...."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John 3: 16. A message to a non believer, a message of hope. A message of love,

what greater love has one who will give his life for the one he loves?

her is God, the creator of all things, sending his son to become a man, to suffer and die that just as the serpent was raised and whoever looked at it in faith did not die, so too the son of man was lifted up. That whoever believes in him (looks to the cross in faith) will NEVER DIE, and HAS ETERNAL life

never die means just that, never die, is a person born again dies spiritually later, then Gods promise was false, he lied

eternal life is forever, if eternal life could ever be lost, it is really conditional life, and once again God lied

1. a believer uses the verse to remember his first love to remember the promise, the same promise John said in his epistle that we may KNOW we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and by this knowledge continue to believe

2. John 3 is the hope which brings a non believer to Christ, and the hope which sustains a believer knowing he is eternally secure in Christ, and because of this, he can continue to walk, knowing no amount of suffering on earth is anything compared to the great gifts they will recieve for all eternity,

3. it’s the basis for Paul’s believe that his suffering is a momentary light affliction, because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,

4 it was so convincing to nicodemus, that we see the fruit of the spirit in him after christ’s death, as he repented from dead works (the law) and did what Jesus said we need to do.

5 John 3:16 is a message of hope and love for the non believer and message of hope and security for the believer,

 

[Gregory]

I will gladly show the context again to help people understand.

We must remember that all three synoptics give commentary of this event. Matt. 12: 22-32, Mk. 3:22-30, Luke 11:14-20.

Let us set the biblical scene.

Jesus had come to present the kingdom to Israel and showed HImself to be the long awaited Messiah! We know John was His forerunner and when Jesus sent out the disciples, they were to only go to Jews and announce th ekingdom of heaven had come.

Jesus performed many public miracles to show Himself the Messiah, but there were three that stand out in particular. The reason they stood out is that it had been taught in jewish cirlces that these 3 miracles could only be done when Messiah came. These three miracles were: 1: the healing of a man born blind, 2: The healing of Jewish Lepers ( never had been done prior to Jesus) and 3. the casting out of a demon from a deaf dumb man. Jews could cast demons out, but they had to establish communication with the demon, learn its name and then using its name, cast it out. By the exzorcism in the gospel passages, Jesus had already healed the lepers, gave sight to teh man born blind (both these are well commented on in the scriptures) and now He performs the third and final messianic miracle- the exorcism of a demon from a deaf and dumb man.

Remember we muyst look at all three passages to get the full picture of what took place at this event. but let us look at Matt. 12: 22-23
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

The people asked the pharisees a rhetorical question here. They were saying this is the Messiah isn't it? (Son of David is a Messianic title). The reason why they said this is because they were taught all their lives that only Messiah could do this miracle. So the pharisees were forced to give an answer- Yes He is or no He isn't Messiah, but give a reason why He is not Messiah! We know their choice.

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

This is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and Judgment was set against that generation.
1. the kingdom was revoked from that generation to be given to afuture generation of Israel.
2. Physical judgment was set and defined in Luke 21:20-24
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

this had been previously prophesied (though not in such detail) and fulfilled in the 66-70 Ad siege and destruction of Jerusalem.

Also the entire nature of Jesus ministry changed. No longer did Jesus send out the disciples saying "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" for th ekingdom was revoked and postponed.

He taught the masses only in parables to hide the truth from them.

Matt. 13:10-15:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Also th eonly public miracle He did was the sign of Jonah to the Jews-resurrection. He did it twice while on earth (Lazarus and Himself) and will do it one more time to Israel with the two witnesses. All miracles after this point were personal and on the basis of faith.

Also He now went and prepared the disciples to build the church. It was also at this point that the pharisees had gone from inquiry, to investigation (that is why they were there- investigating Jesus) to accusing to later plotting to condemn Him.

So why is this blasphemy only capable by the nation of Israel when Jesus walked on the earth?

1. He performed a miracle that was taught only Messiah could do.
2. The Pharisees accused Jesus of being demon possessed to perform the Messianic miracle. (The pharisees knew He was Messiah at this point but did not want this kind of Messiah).
3. Finally the judgments Jesus pronounced to that genersation because of the national rejection of Jesus (individuals believed but the leaders rejected)
Matt. 12: 41-45:
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

So the blasphemy of the Spirit ( or railing agains tthe spirit) could only be done when Jesus performed miracles and someone accuses Jesus of being demon possessed.

there is more and more context that could be given, but I hope this helps.

I believe you are so concerned with context, that you have overshot the point. In Mark 3:28 It says: 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

You will notice that Jesus is talking about all the sons of men, not just Israelites.

Then in Mark 3:29 it says: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Jesus now says "he" who blasphemes against the HG hath never forgiveness. I believe the "he" is any man, not just Israelites. At least any man that believes in the Lord. Since most of the Jews did not believe, I'm not sure they were who he was talking too.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe you are so concerned with context, that you have overshot the point. In Mark 3:28 It says: 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

You will notice that Jesus is talking about all the sons of men, not just Israelites.

Then in Mark 3:29 it says: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Jesus now says "he" who blasphemes against the HG hath never forgiveness. I believe the "he" is any man, not just Israelites. At least any man that believes in the Lord. Since most of the Jews did not believe, I'm not sure they were who he was talking too.

One thing to remember, the very jews Jesus spoke these words to commited this blasphemy, yet Jesus told them they were in danger,

this shows me that we have until we die to repent, if we fail to repent and die in the state of calling the Holy Spirit a liar, then we die in an unforgiven state,

the rest of sin was handled on the cross,

 

[kcnalp]

Partakers of the Holy Spirit are Christians. If they fall away their end is to be burned. Verses 4 and 5 absolutely describe Christians!

"4 who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, (Christians) ! 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come"

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, (Christians) ! 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

 

[theefaith]

One OSAS believer here stated:

"If I died when I didn’t believe I would have gone to Heaven because there was One Time That I DID Believe.....that’s all it takes...."

Do you agree with this comment?

not biblical
Jn 3:16 perpetual state of believing in the present tense

must be a member of Christ by faith and baptism Mk 16:16 and remain in Him till death Jn 15:1 and

Matt 24:13 he who endures unto the end shall be saved;

 

[theefaith]

Those who trust in Jesus Chris as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation are saved. (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

no to faith alone!

those verses refer to redemption not justification
Faith and the sacraments are required
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38

 

[Gregory]

One thing to remember, the very jews Jesus spoke these words to commited this blasphemy, yet Jesus told them they were in danger,

this shows me that we have until we die to repent, if we fail to repent and die in the state of calling the Holy Spirit a liar, then we die in an unforgiven state,

the rest of sin was handled on the cross,

Yes, repentance is very important. Jesus loves a repentant soul, and he will forgive. Thank you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

no to faith alone!

those verses refer to redemption not justification
Faith and the sacraments are required
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38

Justification is said to be by Grace,

Redemption is the cause of justification.

Not doing a bunch of works.

 

[theefaith]

Justification is said to be by Grace,

Redemption is the cause of justification.

Not doing a bunch of works.

not what the Bible says
And works actually refer to Christian virtues

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patienceinherit the promises.

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:




1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
The holy church is the ark of grace and salvation!

————————-
Faith is part of works!

Works is defined as something we choose to do, volition!

Faith is also works because you have to choose to believe! Jn 1:12 Jn 3:16 rom 10:9

And continue to believe, a perpetual state of believing. Matt 24:13 Jn 15:1-5


In grace works have merit

 

[kcnalp]

No Christian works, no salvation!

James 2:14-26 (NKJV)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Amen Jesus!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

not what the Bible says
And works actually refer to Christian virtues

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patienceinherit the promises.

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:




1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
The holy church is the ark of grace and salvation!

————————-
Faith is part of works!

Works is defined as something we choose to do, volition!

Faith is also works because you have to choose to believe! Jn 1:12 Jn 3:16 rom 10:9

And continue to believe, a perpetual state of believing. Matt 24:13 Jn 15:1-5


In grace works have merit

the bible is clear

Not of works lest anyone should boast

If it is grace it is no longer of works. otherwise Grace is no longer grace

If abrahamm was found by works, he has something to boast. But not before God because Abraham believed and it was accounted as righteousness (justified)

 

[theefaith]

the bible is clear

Not of works lest anyone should boast

If it is grace it is no longer of works. otherwise Grace is no longer grace

If abrahamm was found by works, he has something to boast. But not before God because Abraham believed and it was accounted as righteousness (justified)

both

the bible is clear

Not of works lest anyone should boast

If it is grace it is no longer of works. otherwise Grace is no longer grace

If abrahamm was found by works, he has something to boast. But not before God because Abraham believed and it was accounted as righteousness (justified)

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

lest any man boast refers to redemption not justification

 

[Eternally Grateful]

both


James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

lest any man boast refers to redemption not justification

It can’t be both. Paul said it has to be one or the other

Romans 11:6 (NKJV): And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But

As for James, it does Not contradict romans 4. Your interpretation is also flawed