Bible alone

[GISMYS_7]

I don't doubt Jesus. I doubt the trinitarian idolatry of a man, the imposing trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text.

The one true Almighty God is Father,Son and Holy Spirit = the one true Almighty God!!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just as a quick note : John 3 had nothing to do with baptism. "Water and Spirit" : "...out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (this He spake of the Spirit)..." shows that "water" and "Spirit" are just about or completely synonymous.

Nicodemus was the one who first raised a mother's womb. Thus, Jesus is working with that thought, which is why I believe he refers to the amniotic fluid.

 

[CadyandZoe]

he never said anything about being born of water?
But born again of water AND the spirit

Right. All human beings are born of water. That is a given. But, only those born of water (from the womb) and of spirit (from God) can see the kingdom of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Wrong. Jesus corrected Nicodemus's misunderstanding. Amniotic fluid does not bring a person into the Kingdom. Baptism is physical, wet water AND spirit. It is BOTH, not either/or. All the earliest Christians for centuries were unanimous on this point. Even Luther and Calvin baptized with physical, wet water. The Bible doesn't give the exact method for baptism, we rely on the teachings of the Apostles and have never changed it. "Bible alone" Christians are hopelessly divided on the matter of baptism, which doesn't look favorable for their theology.

Baptism is not in view in this passage. If it were, Jesus would have said so.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are giving the RCC ammunition . Water was not at all aminotic fluid .
the lovely water of the WORD .
However , there is something that must be clearly understood .
If the early church did do water baptism . AND THEY DID . SO TOO must we .
Let us be hearers and doers of all things , of the Word .

Don't misunderstand me. My argument is not against baptism. My argument is strictly that baptism is not the subject of discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course. Challenging heresies REQUIRE a council to determine if it is a heresy in the first place.

If you bother to study the OT verses that Jesus quoted, you won't find "Bible alone" theology. Jesus taught what they meant, He didn't let the verses speak for themselves. Off topic. And Jesus is referring Himself.
The Nicene Creed, which you cannot comprehend, asserts that Jesus is fully God and fully man. You are saying this contradicts Scripture. Having a sensible discussion with you is IMPOSSIBLE.

I don't agree that councils are required to challenge heresies. Heresy hunting is an occupation unfamiliar to Jesus and the Apostles. Christ and the Apostles recommend a different course of action, which is more worthy of the gospel.

From personal experience I have found that heretic hunters are similar in many ways to those who censor speech. Unconvinced that the truth will prevail against all challenge, and unconvinced of the truth themselves, men take to heresy hunting and shun, or murder those with whom they disagree. Jesus, on the other hand, recommended that folks simply walk away and shake the dust of their feet.

Your statement about Bible alone theology not being taught in the Bible is a contradiction on it's face, since you are asking me to use the Bible alone to prove the contrary. The same goes for your claim that Christians are obligated to obey bishops and popes. You attempt to use the Bible alone to prove that also, which is, again, a contradiction. I would encourage you to examine your argument because it needs work.

Besides, the phrase "Bible alone" is a misnomer. Take a look at John, chapters 14 through 16. In those chapters you will find Jesus' instructions to his apostles concerning their role after Jesus ascends to heaven. He tells them that the apostles will not be alone, but that he will send them another "parakletos", referring to him as "the Spirit of truth." So, the apostles did not work alone; the role of the spirit of truth was to "convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment." John 16:8. Thus, Jesus-Followers are not using the Bible alone; we have the benefit of the Bible AND the Holy Spirit.

With regard to the Nicene Creed, I would agree with you on one count. I don't understand the Nicene Creed. And I maintain that NO ONE understands it because it fails to communicate anything real. The entire thing is based on faulty Greek philosophical ideas, which came from Greek philosophers not direct revelation from God. A lot of the goofy ideas that Catholics affirm came from goofy Greeks, who speculated about first principles, having no actual knowledge of them. Paul warned us about such men.

Ephesians 4:14-15
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,​

trickery of men
This translates the Greek phrase which literally says, "the dice rolling of men." Rather than "trickery" here, I think Paul refers to divination.

craftiness in deceitful scheming
This translates the Greek phrase which literally says, "the false wisdom coming from the craft of the planets." In other words, astrology.

His point is this. Now that God has given the early church the Apostles, who give us direct revelation from God himself, they no longer needed to rely on divination techniques, such as dice rolling or astrology. We have the writings of the Apostles and the Holy Spirit. That's all we need.

 

[GracePeace]

Nicodemus was the one who first raised a mother's womb. Thus, Jesus is working with that thought, which is why I believe he refers to the amniotic fluid.

It would be redundant. He's already referring to a person entering the Kingdom--all persons are already assumed to have been "born of amniotic fluid" so why would He now introduce such a condition for them entering the Kingdom? He's talking about living waters of the Spirit.

 

[theefaith]

Yeah i dont follow luther and others either .
BUT it is true , we are saved soley by Faith in Christ .
its just if our faith is dead , then its not true faith . I LIVED a dead faith once .
I could quote the gospel but i loved the darkness . I did not know Christ .
My faith was not true faith . PRAISE GOD for sending grace that flipped we around
and gave me true faith . Yep . Truth is it happend on this very day , may thirtieth
of two thousand and six . Fifteen years ago . LET THE LORD BE PRAISED .
TRUE FAITH is seen by its fruits , by its works indeed . Truth is james nor paul contradicted one another .
IT IS FAITH that does save . Its just if its mouth and not heart faith , if it has not works , THEN IT IS DEAD ,
just as dead as i once was . And its all by the grace of GOD .
The Father is HE who draws us to Christ . LET US PRAISE AND REJOICE
in the GLORIOUS , WONDEROUS and MAGNIFICENT LORD .

And what about baptism?

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
The holy church founded by Christ is the ark of salvation!

 

[theefaith]

Issaih twenty two , SURE wasnt pointing to the RCC my friend .
The RCC has done a number on your mind my friend .

type of the papacy

 

[theefaith]

During Jesus’ earthly ministry, the people already had the scripture that God had provided and the traditions of men that the Priests and Pharisees had added to them. God Himself, in the person of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, spoke directly to the people as God Incarnate. During that time, he:

1. Explained the true meaning of the scripture and quoted it as the authoritative voice of God to settle matters not open to further debate.
2. Expected the people to know what scripture said and to obey and believe it.
3. Praised those that obeyed the written word of God and encouraged all to listen and obey what God had written.
4. Condemned the traditions of man that had been added to the words of God by those that loved the honor and authority and wealth and power that came with their exalted positions as Priests and Scribes and Teachers of the Law.

Where Jesus expounded upon or changed the meaning of the written word from a physical burden to a spiritual truth, His authority to do so was affirmed by signs and wonders from God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

After the ascension of Christ, the task of training up the disciples and building the 12 foundations upon which the Church stands fell to the Apostles ... appointed directly by Christ and empowered at His command by the Holy Spirit to teach the first generation and write a new Scripture for future generations. This work was authenticated by the miracles and outpouring of Spirit and Power upon them.

After the death of the Apostles, what we see is no continuation of Apostolic authority or authentication in power and spirit by those that came after. We have individuals that God clearly used and specific events that were clearly miraculous, but nothing to indicate that Holy Scripture was still open to constant addition from the breath of God. God had said what He intended to say and had preserved His message in writing for the future generations to rediscover (even as Israel constantly rediscovered the Torah and came to realize how far the nation had strayed from what God had actually commanded.)

As for men, we see nothing more or less than a rebirth of the old Jewish hierarchy of Priests speaking with God, Scribes and Teachers forming an elite class between the Priests and the People that Christ shed his blood for and who truly form His Body here on Earth. Then these new “Christian Priests and Pharisees” adopt honorific titles and places of authority (as Christ specifically forbid) and gained for themselves wealth and power. As all men that gain power, suddenly there are new “traditions of man” that must be obeyed by the “people” (defined as everyone in inferior status to the Christian elite).

I am not hating on tradition. Heck, I love the Christmas tradition of the three wise men and the little drummer boy even though I know that both are complete fictions (There were three gifts, not three wise men, that visited the Infant Jesus, not the baby in the manger ... and the Little Drummer Boy is a modern, feel-good fictional story). What I object to is human traditions that directly contradict the actual words of Jesus and the writings of the apostles themselves. Sola Scriptura means that there is no higher authority that the word of God. If “traditions” contradict “Scripture”, then Scripture wins every time.

What God said, not what men think!

3 wise men are in scripture

Matt 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

And I’m not talking about traditions of men, but divine tradition or the teaching authority of the apostles or that which is handed down

example

1 cor 11:23.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

 

[theefaith]

Right. All human beings are born of water. That is a given. But, only those born of water (from the womb) and of spirit (from God) can see the kingdom of God.

not what it says!

born again or f water AND the spirit

both

 

[GISMYS_7]

How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!!!

Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13 GOD SAYS=

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved....................

---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------

An example prayer for those that have never talked to God!

Heavenly Father:........................................... ...............................
I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of
my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my
heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have
Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe
that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and
Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the
day's of my Life!. Because your word is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus! In Jesus Name, Amen

 

[theefaith]

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It would be redundant. He's already referring to a person entering the Kingdom--all persons are already assumed to have been "born of amniotic fluid" so why would He now introduce such a condition for them entering the Kingdom? He's talking about living waters of the Spirit.

Jesus is speaking to a man who, according to the teachings of his brotherhood, believe that the Jews will enter the kingdom of God by virtue of their birth. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that birthright isn't enough.

 

[CadyandZoe]

not what it says!

born again or f water AND the spirit

both

Remember, we are interested in what the Bible means by what it says. Meaning depends almost entirely on context. Baptism is NOT mentioned in the context, but being born of a mother's womb is in the context.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The one true Almighty God is Father,Son and Holy Spirit = the one true Almighty God!!

Yes, of course. But while the Nicene Creed says something similar, it adds concepts that are not Biblical.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

Your "context" is too broad. The meaning of Jesus' phrase "born of water" should be understood within the Nicodemus narrative. John 3:1-21

 

[Illuminator]

Yes, of course. But while the Nicene Creed says something similar, it adds concepts that are not Biblical.

Most Protestants would disagree with you. The Nicene Creed is the accepted
standard for this board. You assert the Nicene Creed "adds concepts that are not biblical" but don't say what they are. That is a radical claim contrary to most of Christianity: Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. You stand alone.

 

[theefaith]

Jesus is speaking to a man who, according to the teachings of his brotherhood, believe that the Jews will enter the kingdom of God by virtue of their birth. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that birthright isn't enough.

Then explain eph 4:5 or many other verses

 

[theefaith]

Jesus is speaking to a man who, according to the teachings of his brotherhood, believe that the Jews will enter the kingdom of God by virtue of their birth. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that birthright isn't enough.

why go to the river to baptize???