Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.

[kcnalp]

I attack salvation by works, but I don’t attack saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

I don't recall anyone here saying they are saved by works. But you attack anyway.

 

[mailmandan]

I don't recall anyone here saying they are saved by works. But you attack anyway.

Are you really that naïve? I run across multiple people on multiple Christian form sites on a regular basis who teach salvation by faith “and works.”

 

[kcnalp]

Are you really that naïve? I run across multiple people on multiple Christian form sites on a regular basis who teach salvation by faith “and works.”

Who on this site? You're constantly ranting against "works" here. Do you honestly believe you can be a Christian without good works?

 

[TheslightestID]

I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who makes the same mistake as you do. After he stated that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, he then contradicted himself by saying this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

Again, I have done alI I can for you. All I can do is put the scripture/truth right in front of you, it is up to you to accept it or not.

 

[amigo de christo]

Hebrews 5
[8] Though he [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What a lovely reminder my friend . Now , let all that has breath praise the glorious Lord .

 

[mailmandan]

Who on this site? You're constantly ranting against "works" here. Do you honestly believe you can be a Christian without good works?

You’re constantly ranting against OSAS. I ONLY rant against “salvation by works.” If you can’t figure out who on this site teaches salvation by works, then it’s not going to do any good for me to give you a list of people who do, just so you can stir up more contention. All genuine Christians produce good works, yet not all are equally fruitful.

 

[mailmandan]

Again, I have done alI I can for you. All I can do is put the scripture/truth right in front of you, it is up to you to accept it or not.

Back at you.

 

[amigo de christo]

Absolutely wrong. Paul warned that if you keep any part of the old covenant law, you are required to keep ALL OF IT. All 613 parts of the law.

He also warned that if you go back to the law, you fall from Grace.
.

Did He say we are to make void the law by grace . Let he that stole , STEAL NO MORE
LIE not one to another , Covet not which is idolarty , do not partake in other mens sins .
No adultery , no fornication , no witchcraft , no etc , YET the law said the same . Some folks
are misunderstanding what it means to GO back under the law .
IF i use the law to proclaim my RIGHTEOUSNESS , THEN I AM DOOMED . but if use the law to correct
YES INDEED they did , we do .

 

[amigo de christo]

And therein lies the problem . Most folks use grace to omit truth , when in truth grace would put TRUTH upon our hearts .

 

[amigo de christo]

No, that is referring to seeking to be justified by the law.

If you know that you have been justified through faith in Jesus Christ, and obey His commandments out of love for Him, this is not going to condemn you if you do not keep all of the commandments perfectly. You have been justified through faith in Jesus Christ; and the law, which came 430 years after, is not going to disannul the promise.

Jesus said, If you love me, obey my commandments;

And I would say to you that commandments obeyed out of love for the One who has redeemed you are not going to condemn you for being obeyed.

To say otherwise is backwards thinking.

This is what most folks no longer see . The great two commandments that JESUS left us , DO NOT TRANSGRESS the righteousness
of the law , IT FULLFILLS IT .
If we walk in the love that comes form GOD , that love would not trangress . AND ANY LOVE that does , aint coming from GOD .
When we steal we are not walking in love , when we lie we are not walking in love .
LOVE actually fullfills the righteousness of the law . THUS there is NO LAW against IT .
But if folks walk in sin , they LOVE NOT , well they love their sin , not GOD and not mankind .

 

[amigo de christo]

Let us learn those bibles . And learn them WELL .

 

[kcnalp]

You’re constantly ranting against OSAS.

I actually like OSAS. It says I can NEVER be unsaved. Alas, it's a myth. So I will keep "striving" to stay saved.

I ONLY rant against “salvation by works.” If you can’t figure out who on this site teaches salvation by works, then it’s not going to do any good for me to give you a list of people who do, just so you can stir up more contention All genuine Christians produce good works, yet not all are equally fruitful.

Just one or two might help. I haven't noticed any. I would like to see if they are really guilty of your charges of salvation by works. So you do believe in "works salvation"!

 

[Ziggy]

Can someone please define "works" ?
Thank you

 

[Grailhunter]

Can someone please define "works" ?
Thank you

Most are going to give you the wrong definition of works.
There is no one in the Bible or here saying works are required for salvation. The only works that the Bibles speaks against is the observance of the Mosaic Law. Those that look to the Law for justification are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace.
There are some here trying to deceive and say that if you are a good Christian...that is works. That doing good, is works and that is a lie.
The actual Protestant concern for works came out the Protestant reform and the Catholic Church's claim that they had control of salvation and there were things you had to do, or not do for salvation. The Protestants correctly rejected that.
If someone brings up the topic of works in relation to salvation to you...they are trying to deceive you...and they are liars.

 

[JunChosen]

Addressing the OP,

If "forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord" only [forgiveness means to be saved] then I say this is a very, very sad salvation indeed!

Those who Do Not understand the WHOLE concept [picture] of salvation will always come up with salvation of WORKS, that is they use words like "confess," "accept," "believe," "by faith" etc... not realizing these words are associated with works.

In fact, Romans 3:10-11 declares there are none that seeks after God. If none are righteous who then will seek and "confess," "accept," "believe," "by faith?" NONE!

But some did do all of the above because they are a gift! [Ephesians 2:8-9]
AND, because forgiveness and salvation is of God declared by the Father in eternity past before the foundation of the world as "chosen and elect."

If the OP is true what of those babies, infants, children and adults who have the minds of little children, are they lost because they cannot comprehend the commandments of God???

We know that the above cannot be true because God gave us an ensample concerning John the Baptist who was saved from his mother's womb.

My two cents worth.

To God Be The Glory

 

[GISMYS_7]

Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13 GOD SAYS=

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved...............

 

[Ziggy]

So according to Galatians.. works of the flesh are these:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Then there are good works:
Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

Salvation comes from Faith and Belief. It's not physical.
You can't wash plates or repeat repetitious prayers for salvation.
And I don't think doing either one would make you lose salvation either.

Jesus said it plainly didn't he?

Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

washing your hands was a big deal under the levitical law.
Jesus said, this won't get you either into or out of trouble.

You notice Paul speaking in Galatians is saying the same thing Jesus said in Matthew.
So when you all are talking about works are you talking about the Levitical laws or the good works of the spirit?

Because in Moses' law you can see the same good works. Like if you see your neighbors ox gone astray, bring him home.
Jesus says the same thing about finding an animal in a pit on the sabbath. You should save the beast.
Because even though it is a "work" , it is a "good" work.

I think people just like to argue.

Will saving a donkey in a pit bring you salvation alone?
I don't think so. There is this requirement of faith and belief in God in order to recieve salvation.
It's not just handed out like unsolicited ballots. You have to ask in order to receive.

But, then you have the merit system.
If you do "good" works, they increase the value of your rewards.
If you do "bad" works, you lose even the reward you started with.
I believe those rewards are also in the heart, such as faith, joy, kindness.. these fruits are the rewards.

The workman is worthy of his meat.
That's the golden rule. If you want to eat, you need to feed people.
Feed them with both physical and spiritual food.
Just make sure there isn't any poison in it.
Test it yourself first before you harm another.
Even that would be a good work.

So what you all talking about works??
JUST DO THE RIGHT THING

C'mon people this aint rocket science.

Hugs
:)

 

[Curtis]

No, the commandments of the LORD are kept because of love for Jesus Christ (John 14:15)...not only to justify one's self. If a man is already justified through faith in Christ, his keeping of the law is not an attempt at justification but an outpouring of love that he has towards the Lord over having redeemed him.



That cannot be true; because there is no law that will condemn a man who bears the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); and therefore those who bear the fruit of the Spirit become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom.

This is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed.

If I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4).

So, the fact that I do not murder does not necessarily mean that I will be utterly condemned if I lust after a woman in my heart, thus committing adultery on my wife. There is forgiveness in the blood of Christ.

If you follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, I must break all of the commandments consistently or else I will not be forgiven. Because if I obey any of them at any point, I am required to obey all of them or else I am condemned.

Most assuredly I say to you, God is not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness (Psalms 5:4).



You have misunderstood that passage and have not taken into account the rest of holy scripture.

For the New Covenant has within it the concept that the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).



The ministration of righteousness has to do with our placing our faith in Jesus Christ; by which we obtain the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14). When we have the Holy Spirit we bear the fruit of the Spirit against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

So, there is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed.

If I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4)...that is the ministry of righteousness.



When we come under the ministry of the Holy Spirit we begin to be obedient to those laws whose penalty was death by stoning and not because of the penalty; which has been done away for those who have placed their faith in Christ. Because the Holy Spirit dwells in my heart and through the Holy Spirit the love of God (Romans 5:5), the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).



That is simply untrue.

As concerning condemnation, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and have been delivered from the law (Romans 7:6).

As concerning obedience, we are "under the law to Christ" (1 Corinthians 9:21)...the law of the LORD has been written on the hearts and in the minds of every New Covenant believer (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).



In the kingdom, no one is any longer a police officer but everyone is a law-abiding citizen of the kingdom; and therefore there is no need for a police force.



Now there is an enforcing of the law for believers if they disobey it. It happens through preaching; as the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin and righteousness and judgment.



The law of the LORD is given as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24)...it shows men that they are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20) and has the power to convert the soul (Psalms 19:7 (kjv)).

It is also perfect according to the last verse that I referenced.

Psa 19:7, The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

So, the law of the LORD and the Old Covenant are not one and the same entity...

As a matter of fact, if you continue reading where you left off, you will find that the law is written on the hearts and in the minds of those who believe in the New Covenant...

Heb 8:8, For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9, Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The entirety of mosaic law and the 613 rules including the Decalogue, has ended, replaced with Gods real law, the law of love.

If anyone puts themself under even one part of ended OT law, such as claiming the sabbath day is required to be kept today, they then are required to keep the rest of the 613 laws, commands, and statutes.

The entire covenant given on mount Sinai is bondage: Galatians 4:21-31.

The ten commands are the ministry of death and the letter that kills, replaced by the law of the Spirit, that brings life.

Acts 15:5 the apostles met to discuss the claim that many Jewish Christians made, that gentile believers must be circumcised AND keep the law of Moses. Peters statement regarding that is the law of Moses is a yoke of bondage neither they or their fathers could keep, and gentile believers are not required to keep it, Acts 15:5, except for four things that are listed in Acts.15:20.

Colossians 2:14 Jesus nailed the commandments in ordinances that were against us (the law of Moses, which kills, and is a yoke of bondage), to His cross, taking them out of our way.

Scholarship from JFB commentary on Colossians 2:14:

Blotting out — Greek, “Having wiped out”; coincident in time with “having forgiven you” (Col 2:13); hereby having cancelled the law’s indictment against you. The law (including especially the moral law, wherein lay the chief difficulty in obeying) is abrogated to the believer, as far as it was a compulsory, accusing code, and as far as “righteousness” (justification) and “life” were sought for by it. It can only produce outward works, not inward obedience of the will, which in the believer flows from the Holy Spirit in Him (Rom 3:21; Rom 7:2, Rom 7:4; Gal 2:19).

the handwriting of ordinances — rather, “IN ordinances” (see on Eph 2:15); “the law of commandments contained in ordinances.” “The handwriting” (alluding to the Decalogue, the representative of the law, written by the hand of God) is the whole law, the obligatory bond, under which all lay; the Jews primarily were under the bond, but they in this respect were the representative people of the world (Rom 3:19); and in their inability to keep the law was involved the inability of the Gentiles also, in whose hearts “the work of the law was written” (Rom 2:15); and as they did not keep this, they were condemned by it.

that was against us ... contrary to us — Greek “adversary to us”; so it is translated, Heb 10:27. “Not only was the law against us by its demands, but also an adversary to us by its accusations” [Bengel]. Tittmann explains the Greek, “having a latent contrariety to us”; not open designed hostility, but virtual unintentional opposition through our frailty; not through any opposition in the law itself to our good (Rom 7:7-12, Rom 7:14; 1Co 15:56; Gal 3:21; Heb 10:3). The “WRITING” is part of “that which was contrary to us”; for “the letter killeth” (see on 2Co 3:6).

and took it — Greek, and hath taken it out of the way” (so as to be no longer a hindrance to us), by “nailing it to the cross.” Christ, by bearing the curse of the broken law, has redeemed us from its curse (Gal 3:13). In His person nailed to the cross, the law itself was nailed to it. One ancient mode of canceling bonds was by striking a nail through the writing

And in 2 Corinthians chapter 3, as Paul is very clear that the ten commands bring death, and have been done away with, replaced by the law of the spirit, which brings life.

 

[TheslightestID]

There is no one in the Bible or here saying works are required for salvation.

Faith without works is dead, so you are essentually saying faith is not required for salvation as dead faith is no faith. Since faith without works is dead, we must have works in order to have live, or real faith. Or do you think you can get to heaven with dead faith?

Salvation comes from Faith and Belief. It's not physical.

Works are physical, and since faith without works is dead, works are required in order to have living faith, so yes, it is physical because works are physical.

That is unless you think you can get to heaven with dead faith....do you?

 

[Ziggy]

Faith without works is dead, so you are essentually saying faith is not required for salvation as dead faith is no faith. Since faith without works is dead, we must have works in order to have live, or real faith. Or do you think you can get to heaven with dead faith?



Works are physical, and since faith without works is dead, works are required in order to have living faith, so yes, it is physical because works are physical.

That is unless you think you can get to heaven with dead faith....do you?

The works come from the heart and manifest in the flesh.

You know the verses where Jesus said as often as ye did this to the least of these, you have done unto me.
Those "works" come from or originate in a heart of compassion, a heart of empathy, a heart of kindness.
It begins inside and manifests outwardly.

Under the "Law of Works" I guess you could call it,
It wasn't about the heart. It was about self-righteousness. Look at me, look how good I am.
Totally without true compassion or empathy or mercy.
Just an empty display of hypocrisy.

True works come from the heart.
Both good and bad works come from the heart.
Greed, envy, leads to coveting and stealing..
Love and Mercy lead to feeding and caring.

Why does this have to be so controversial?

Hugs