Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.

[marks]

This may be one of those where you are so locked in that I may have a tough time even getting the question through.

Interesting perspective!

I'm thinking if you can articulate a question, I'll be able to understand it.

Is the idea, If you ARE, then you will Act . . . like that?

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Interesting perspective!

I'm thinking if you can articulate a question, I'll be able to understand it.

Is the idea, If you ARE, then you will Act . . . like that?

Much love!

No, but I appreciate the response.

Here, let me try it this way: As I have argued before, a child who has problems in one area but normally does all his father asks him to can still be rightly and properly referred to as an obedient child. In other words, while he may not walk in PERFECT obedience to the Father, he leads a life characterized by obedience. This is what our Heavenly Father is after as well. He knows we will not be perfect for we are human beings. But He does expect a life characterized by obedience, in an attempt to conform ourselves to His image.

In Post #4 Amazed@grace posited that we cannot keep the hundreds of commandments put forth in the Old Testament. I responded that the OP has already accounted for this by saying those hundreds of OT commandments were summed up in the second greatest, so it is not a matter of keeping hundreds but only a few that overarch and sum them all up.

Now, do you agree then that we are only saved if we choose to lead lives characterized by obedience, or do you feel that we can be saved even if we choose NOT to lead lives characterized by obedience to God?

 

[marks]

Now, do you agree then that we are only saved if we choose to lead lives characterized by obedience, or do you feel that we can be saved even if we choose NOT to lead lives characterized by obedience to God?

AH! Good question!

May I distill it this way?

Are we saved only if we choose to lead lives of obedience by loving others? Or can we be saved even if we do not choose to live so, to love others?

Is that fair to say?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is our salvation determined by our choices in life following our rebirth?

Much love!

 

[Amazed@grace]

@Hidden In Him

I agree with the above. At least as I understand the post. If lawkeeping is required, we are doomed.

We can talk about which laws, people have different ideas of what we "have to keep" to be saved.

We are saved by faith in Christ, being redeemed and recreated, now a new man, born of God, justifed away from sin.

Now, Jesus commands us 2 things, trust Him, and love others. But not to gain, nor keep our salvation. Rather, because we are the children of God.

Much love!

You got it. :)

It isn't eternal life, eternal Salvation, if we can do something or not do, and lose it.
Nor does God tell us that is possible.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Are we saved only if we choose to lead lives of obedience by loving others? Or can we be saved even if we do not choose to live so, to love others?

Neither.

Is our salvation determined by our choices in life following our rebirth?

Much love!

If you want me to answer a third question of yours, I need you to answer one of mine. I've asked it four times now, LoL. I don't mean to be rude and I am not trying to badger you, but every time I try to pin you down in an attempt to show you there may be holes in your theology, you go into evasion mode something awful.

Just stop, think for a moment, and give me an honest answer to the question I posed in Post #22.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You got it. :)

It isn't eternal life, eternal Salvation, if we can do something or not do, and lose it.
Not does God tell us that is possible.

No offense, Amazed@grace, but we cannot practice witchcraft, fornicate, commit murder, commit rape, do violence to others and expect to go to Heaven simply because we "got saved" and now it's irrevocable. This is false teaching and will lead souls to Hell, not Heaven.

 

[Behold]

So, you will not be disobedient to the commandments of the Lord if you are born again of the Holy Spirit. You will be a friend of Jesus according to the scriptures in question.

So, your Thread is teaching that Forgiveness is based on works, and not Grace or the Mercy of God.
Your Thread is denying the Cross, and replacing it with "commandment keeping", as stated by the TITLE of your Cross Rejecting THREAD.
You wrote......that If a person keeps the commandments, then God forgives them.
So, you are again teaching the devil's gospel of Works, in Place of the Grace of God.

God says this. "if you take Jesus, you are forgiven".

So, justbyfaith, you have a real issue with The Cross.
I wonder for how many years.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So, your Thread is teaching that Forgiveness is based on works, and not Grace or the Mercy of God.
Your Thread is denying the Cross, and replacing it with "commandment keeping", as stated by the TITLE of your Cross Rejecting THREAD.
You wrote......that If a person keeps the commandments, then God forgives them.
So, you are again teaching the devil's gospel of Works, in Place of the Grace of God.

God says this. "if you take Jesus, you are forgiven".

So, justbyfaith, you have a real issue with The Cross.
I wonder for how many years.

Behold, read Post #6, and then respond to the question I posed at the bottom of Post #22.

 

[marks]

Neither.


If you want me to answer a third question of yours, I need you to answer one of mine. I've asked it four times now, LoL. I don't mean to be rude and I am not trying to badger you, but every time I try to pin you down in an attempt to show you there may be holes in your theology, you go into evasion mode something awful.

Just stop, think for a moment, and give me an honest answer to the question I posed in Post #22.

I didn't mean that other post to be some sort of misdirection, nor am I trying to evade you.

I'm trying to have clarity in our discussion, and in all honesty, I look at things written sometimes, and I can see how it could mean this or mean that, and without having a clear understanding what what you are seeking from me, I don't want to go off half-cocked without having tried to get a better handle on things.

The questions you've asked me, "account for this passage in your theology", I can tell you how I understand the passage, but when you phrase it that way, it leads me to think you've got something more particular in mind.

So I like to draw that out, and try to be on target.

I have no hesitation or reluctance to answer.

Off to post 22 . . .

Much love!

 

[Amazed@grace]

It was through your trust that God saved you. If you hold fast that trust to the end, you have nothing to worry about. Let’s just leave it there.

I am redeemed and made new in Christ. I will never have anything to worry about. :)

 

[Amazed@grace]

But not even disappoint. God has no false expectations of us.

He knew exactly what He was getting when He redeemed us. There is no trying to prove ourselves to Him by our 'obedience', as if we have something we did not receive! There is no convincing Him to love us by our devotion to Him.

Salvation is of the Lord.

Much love!!!

Well said. :)

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am redeemed and made new in Christ. I will never have anything to worry about. :)

LoL. If you are made new in Christ and walk in forgiveness, then why is it that you never respond to any of my posts, despite the fact that I hold nothing against you and am only trying to discuss the scriptures with you. :)

 

[Raccoon1010]

Psa 103:12, As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13, Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Psa 103:14, For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
Psa 103:15, As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
Psa 103:16, For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.
Psa 103:17, But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Psa 103:18, To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8).

Jhn 15:12, This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:13, Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jhn 15:14, Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Jesus laid down His life for His friends. You are His friend, if you do what He commands.

What does He command; but that we love one another?

Rom 13:8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10, Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We are to "love thy neighbor as thyself"; and this consists of obeying God's commandments:

1Jo 5:3, For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6, And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are one and the same God. Jesus is the same YHWH. (Hebrews 13:8).

So, the commandments in the Old Covenant, as moral tenets which we are to follow, are still valid. They are the commandments of the LORD (Jesus).

Of course, commandments as concerning animal sacrifices are fulfilled in that Jesus died on the Cross as the fulfillment of those types. However, moral tenets are binding when it comes to what we read in the Old Testament. If we love our neighbor as ourselves, we will fulfill them; we will not violate them in our behaviour.

And I will say that the scriptures above do show that forgiveness is applied to those who, as a general rule, keep the commandments of the LORD.

It is not that we are saved through law-keeping.

It is that, if we are truly born again, we are inclined towards obedience.

There is a repentance that must take place in your heart in order to become a recipient of the Lord's forgiveness.

You must become Jesus' friend; and only then has He given His life for you.

You are His friend if you obey His commandments.

Jesus is the God of the Old and New Testaments.

If you love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength; and your neighbor as yourself: you will fulfill the righteousness of the law in your behaviour.

You will not be violating any law if you bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

The venue by which we obtain this righteousness is apart from the law; nevertheless this righteousness is attested to by the law and the prophets that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

You must obtain the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14); and then, as you walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in you (Romans 8:4).

There is no law that will condemn your behaviour if you bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

So, you will not be disobedient to the commandments of the Lord if you are born again of the Holy Spirit. You will be a friend of Jesus according to the scriptures in question.

God will forgive who he desires to forgive, it is not up to us children to decide for God. We have no authority in such matters. But it is wise to keep the commandments that lead to salvation and there are many commandments that come down to loving God and our brothers and sisters.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think...bottom line, keep trusting Him and He will see to you. If anything someone says leads you to more trust and the building up of your trust, latch onto it with both hands, because God saves you by His kindness, through trust (by grace, through faith.)

If you work on anything, let it be to trust Him more and more and worry less and less.

If anyone begins to talk about holiness and it does not build up your trust, do not latch onto it, because I assure you, if God has begun to take them that way, it has been through their trust that it has occurred.

 

[Amazed@grace]

It is conditional upon one thing, otherwise the apostle could not have warned God could remove a branch for not continuing in trust. And we certainly see the picture of this in how they trusted God tremendously to step out under that wall of water but then did not continue in that same trust concerning temporal things like food and water and God was displeased.

No such thing as conditional salvation.

 

[marks]

Now, do you agree then that we are only saved if we choose to lead lives characterized by obedience, or do you feel that we can be saved even if we choose NOT to lead lives characterized by obedience to God?

Repentance, metanoia, is, in my understanding, to repudiate all things old in favor of the truth of the Gospel, that in Jesus we can have live, through believing in His Name, receiving Him to share His resurrection. Even that is more than many know when they come to Christ.

We choose Him over our self.

He gives us Himself. Jesus in me. The mind of Christ, now renewing my mind, away from the mind of the flesh, to be as His mind.

This is a process that happens over the course of our lives. It will play out more visibly, less visibly, we will have all sorts of ideas about how well we are doing, or how well others are doing, generally speaking, these arise out of our perceptions of ourselves and others, and our opinions of what those perceptions might mean.

God promises, He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. I believe every day He works in us, conforming us.

"Not resting, not hasting, and silent as light"

I think our life experience can be all over the map. I think our opinions of our selves and others can change from day to day, our perceptions vary, we come to understand things differently in the years to come. I know I've come to understand things much differently than I did when I was reborn.

We repudiate ourselves, and receive Jesus.

To make a long answer short, FINALLY, ;) what I think is this.

We made the choice to follow Jesus in our metanoia.

It plays out in our lives differently, depending on how well we overcome our flesh. When the new man overcomes the old man, the flesh, the world, all these that are against us, righteousness results. Faith which expresses itself through love.

When we are not overcoming, then the junk leaks through. It feels like rebellion, because it's the feeling of the flesh. It thinks like Old Man because its the thoughts of the old man. Sin.

This overcomes the world, our faith. The age. The sort of time we live in, characterized by being the children of light, in a wicked generation, renewing our minds, being conformed to Christ.

You may have a bad day, or month, or year, but salvation is from God, not from me. I believed God, and God counted that to me for righteousness. So God made me righteous, by rebirthing me in the death and resurrection of Jesus. So now I'm joined to Jesus, His life is my life, And He's got a project on His hands! But they are Good hands!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am redeemed and made new in Christ. I will never have anything to worry about. :)

That's actual trust, and an actual salvation.

I really believe He's really saved me!

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think...bottom line, keep trusting Him and He will see to you. If anything someone says leads you to more trust and the building up of your trust, latch onto it with both hands, because God saves you by His kindness, through trust (by grace, through faith.)

If you work on anything, let it be to trust Him more and more and worry less and less.

If anyone begins to talk about holiness and it does not build up your trust, do not latch onto it, because I assure you, if God has begun to take them that way, it has been through their trust that it has occurred.

I like this quote, and good to see you around again, Stunnedbygrace. :)

My one caveat to this is that the holiness of God IS stressed in both the Old and New Testaments. As Pauls said, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." So it does qualify that it ought to be taught if in the Spirit of God rather than in a spirit of condemnation, which scripture says is not of God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No such thing as conditional salvation.

Okay. You are saved by grace, not through trust. you do not have to keep trusting or growing in trust. Do you like that better? We can just strike through the through the trust part.