Once Saved Always Saved

[Grailhunter]

And since you said you were raised with Christ, then it is a given that you were dead with Christ before that.

Tong
R2924

I did not say that, the scriptures say that and I agree. Dead as a theological relative term. I was still alive and kicking. But before I was a Christian I was not a Christian...But I do not remember a time that I did not believe in Christ...4 years, riding my tricycle singing hymns

 

[Eternally Grateful]

People do go on about "OSAS", I'm freshly reminded this accronym means different things to different people. That's one of the reasons I don't like to use modern labels for Biblical doctrines. I think we should speak in Biblical terminology, and at best, simply using the phrases and wording the Bible uses to speak of these things.

We can bicker on and on about "OSAS", and find that we're not even talking about the same things.

Or we can encourage each other live pure lives, knowing that when we see Him, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

Now, some demonstrate the inability to accept this plain statement of Scripture without modifying it somehow, like inserting conditions that don't appear,

We will be like Him if we keep believing.
We will be like Him if we don't sin too much.
We will be like Him if we don't turn blue first.



But the simplicity is, we who are children of God will be like Him when we see Him, because we will see Him as He is.

So someone wants to spin that into an "OSAS" debate, to attack what they consider to be "OSAS". As if a doctrinal debate is more important than understanding the Scriptures. We need to first understand the Scriptures, so that we can have true doctrine.

This passage gives a clear teaching, and heeding that teaching causes us to purify ourselves.

What I want to do is to talk about how this principle, that we become like Him in seeing Him as He is, that this certain expectation is what leads us to live pure lives. Which seems to answer objections about, it just means you don't care about sin. No, this is actually HOW you address sin in you life. You put your hope in Christ, KNOWING that He will IN FACT save you, just as promised. Promised! God cannot lie.

I want to talk about how this principle, that we become like Him as we see Him as He is, let's look deeply into Jesus, learn of Me, He said. Put on the new man, which is renewed according the knowledge the One Who created him.

See Jesus better now, and you will be more like Him now.

He has constant love for you, you will have constant love for others.

Much love!

I agree, People love to spin things, I think those who hate OSAS are in effect are just hating calvinistic teachings, Since they hate fatalism, and since OSAS is a fatalistic view in their minds, Well then they have to reject it at all cost.

Like you said, I prefer to go with just using modern or biblical terms (the term OSAS is not found in scripture so is easy to dismiss.

I prefer things like to show what a person receives the moment they are saved. In other words, ONE A PERSON IS SAVED (OS) what happens?

1. They are given eternal life (john 3, John 6, John 10, Romans 6, Titus 3 plus many others)
2. They are given every spiritual blessing under heaven (eph 1)
3. They are given the pledge of the spirit (eph 1)
4. They are redeemed (gal 3, 1 Peter1, Rev 5)
5. They are justified (Rom 3, 4, 5 and 8, 1 Cor 6, Titus 3,)
6. Heirs (gal 3, titus 3)
7. Adopted sons and daughters (eph 1, Gal 3, Gal 4, 1 Thes 5, Heb 12)
8. Given spirit of peace sound mind, and adoption (rom 8, 2 tim 1)
9. Everything which was against us is nailed to the cross (col 2)
10. Spiritually circumcized/baptized (col 2)
11. Saved (literally rescued) (rom 5, 10, eph 2, 2 Tim 1, Titus 3)
12. Perfected forever, while being sanctified (heb 10)
13. Given the right to become children of God (john 1)
14. Will never hunger, thirst, Die, Will live forever, have eternal life and assured of being raised on the last day (john 6)
15. Given the water flowing to eternal life (john 4)
16 Have passed from death to life (rom 5, eph 2, col 2)

I can go on and on and on.

But what we know from scripture is this. One a person is Saved, According to everything the bible tells us about that person. He will Always remain Saved (OSAS)

I prefer the term eternally secure, ie eternal life vs conditional life. But OSAS is really saying the same thing a different way. Although I see why people hate it based on their hate of calvinism. which is sad.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not sure what you are referring to. If you are referring to the Catholic Church, it was not Pagan. And I am not refusing to discuss the Catholic Church. The point I make is that OSAS is not biblical and does not occur in history until modern times. Being inline with social and political beliefs. Indirectly OSAS by default can be connected to Calvinism only because of the belief that God is a puppet master and in effect does not allowing free-will and determined who was going to heaven and hell before the creation of the world. Which defines God with satanic characteristics.

Rome is a church that came out of a paganized form of Christianity formed by Constantine. We know for a fact Rome also destroyed any information of any doctrine they considered heresy. so even if you do not think Rome was pagan, to use the claim no one ever taught eternal security because you can not find it until after rome fell is misleading. Because you would never find it because rome considered it heresy, Anyone who taught it would be outcast, Executed, and all of their writings would be burned. Period.

While the term OSAS can not be found in scripture. The precept (once a person is saved they are always saved) can be.

Now do people twist this doctrine and make it into a false teaching? Of course Licentious people. who think all they have to do is say some prayer, they do not have to repent. or have real living faith. hence are free to live however they want, use this term to support their licentious gospel.

But if we get right down to it, The root of licentious is really no different than the root of Legalism. It is PRIDE.
'The legalist refuses to repent. and confess he can never earn salvation no matter what, So he works for it and trys to maintain his salvation by staying in the faith, Doing some works based system. Or making sure he does not commit a sin so grace he loses salvation, while the licentious person refuses to repent. and admit his sin is so deep that he or she deserves eternal death in a way they not only have faith in Christ but in what he says, Which is why they show no changed life. they claim to have faith but their faith is dead.

 

[Tong2020]

So again, define what you believe is a genuine Christian ... sola scriptoria, use the scriptures that you believe defines a genuine Christian.

As you said the term “genuine Christian” is not found in scriptures, as the term “true Christian” is not, just as the term “Christianity”, and a lot more, perhaps “genuine believer”, “true believer”, “true brethren”, “true Christ”, “genuine Christ”. So I will just drop the term “genuine Christian”. Let me then rephrase my post and hope it will satisfy you and meet your standard. I expect that you will be consistent with your standard.

Perhaps it would be helpful to list here what scriptures says of the elect of God.

1. They were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
2. They have been justified by faith, having been justified by the blood of Christ Jesus.
3. The love of God has been poured out in their hearts.
4. They have died to sin.
5. They are not under law but under grace.
6. They have been set free from sin.
7. They have been delivered from the law.
8. They are in Christ Jesus and in the Spirit.
9. They have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
10. They have the Spirit of Christ in them.
11. They are children of God, having received the Spirit of adoption, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
12. They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
13. They shall not be separated from the love of Christ.
14. They are not their own as they were bought at a price. They are Christ’s. They are God’s.
15. They were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God.
16. Their bodies are members of Christ. Together they are one body, the body of Christ, and members individually.
17. Their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
18. They are a new creation in Christ.
19. They are children of promise.
20. They were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
21. They were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to God.
22. They have in Christ obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of God.
23. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of their inheritance.
24. They were made alive together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
25. They have been saved by grace through faith.
26. They are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to walk in.
27. God works in them both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
28. Their citizenship is in heaven, not in this world.
29. They have been delivered by the Father from the power of darkness and were conveyed into the kingdom of the Son, Jesus Christ.
30. They were, in Christ, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.
31. They have been forgiven of all trespasses.
32. They are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

33. They were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I hope you will have no issue with the term I use “elect of God”, and move on.

Tong
R2926

 

[Grailhunter]

Rome is a church that came out of a paganized form of Christianity formed by Constantine. We know for a fact Rome also destroyed any information of any doctrine they considered heresy. so even if you do not think Rome was pagan, to use the claim no one ever taught eternal security because you can not find it until after rome fell is misleading. Because you would never find it because rome considered it heresy, Anyone who taught it would be outcast, Executed, and all of their writings would be burned. Period.

You and I can agree on the multitude of sins, corruption, and atrocities committed by the Catholic Church...History...right.
But you cannot blame all the Pagan customs that exist in various Protestant religions. Jewish Christian sects were pretty much gone within the first century. No post biblical writings from Jewish Christians.

The Pagans that were converting to Christianity...Gentiles...they adopted Christian teachings as best they could because there was no Bible...random tests that some did make it into the Bible and some did not. The first time the texts were bound together in a book was the Bibles Emperor Constantine ordered to be collected and bound. Called the 50 Bibles of Constantine.

Now the Gentiles Christians did not abandon all of the regional customs ... Over time they did Christianize them, and that goes for holidays too. The most well known custom that was Pagan, that Christianity adopted was the wedding ceremony. Nowhere in the Bible, Old or New Testaments, are wedding ceremonies required. The Hebrew language does not even have a word for wedding. Christian weddings were modeled after Roman weddings and that is why so many Pagan customs still exist in Christian weddings.
Then of course you have all the holidays that most Protestants observe.

While the term OSAS can not be found in scripture. The precept (once a person is saved they are always saved) can be.

Throughout the New Testament warning of sins and there effects and punishments are noted. Specifically several scriptures explain the sins that will prevent Christian from going to heaven....see Post 3569 of this thread. I am not going to pull them into here, there are to many.

Now do people twist this doctrine and make it into a false teaching? Of course Licentious people. who think all they have to do is say some prayer, they do not have to repent. or have real living faith. hence are free to live however they want, use this term to support their licentious gospel.

People do twist scriptures but that sin reside mostly with the OSAS group. They twist scriptures and only recognize the scriptures they like. Those that oppose OSAS quite scriptures from the Bible, but the OSAS people call that legalism. The Bible is not legalist. There is not a legalist section in the Bible...You have to read the whole Bible and understand...if you don't all these kondike beliefs pop up and believe you me the Protestants have enough denominations.

But if we get right down to it, The root of licentious is really no different than the root of Legalism. It is PRIDE. 'The legalist refuses to repent. and confess he can never earn salvation no matter what, So he works for it and trys to maintain his salvation by staying in the faith, Doing some works based system. Or making sure he does not commit a sin so grace he loses salvation, while the licentious person refuses to repent. and admit his sin is so deep that he or she deserves eternal death in a way they not only have faith in Christ but in what he says, Which is why they show no changed life. they claim to have faith but their faith is dead.

Oh my! The Bible is not legalist or licentious. It is the truth. You have Jehovah's Witnesses, you have Calvinists, you have Voodooist, OSAS, New age...the new denomination that marches to the drum of social and politic values and beliefs and OSAS are included in the new denomination beliefs. Sin all you want and go to heaven...Heaven full of evil! Again where are the good people going to go? Is God going to have to move out of heaven? Do you think that good people are going to consider it a reward to go somewhere full of evildoers....the homosexuals, the cannibals, the abortion doctors, the gang members, the rapists, child molesters, those that lay with animals, murderers...not a comfortable place for good Christians.

 

[Grailhunter]

As you said the term “genuine Christian” is not found in scriptures, as the term “true Christian” is not, just as the term “Christianity”, and a lot more, perhaps “genuine believer”, “true believer”, “true brethren”, “true Christ”, “genuine Christ”. So I will just drop the term “genuine Christian”. Let me then rephrase my post and hope it will satisfy you and meet your standard. I expect that you will be consistent with your standard.

Perhaps it would be helpful to list here what scriptures says of the elect of God.

1. They were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
2. They have been justified by faith, having been justified by the blood of Christ Jesus.
3. The love of God has been poured out in their hearts.
4. They have died to sin.
5. They are not under law but under grace.
6. They have been set free from sin.
7. They have been delivered from the law.
8. They are in Christ Jesus and in the Spirit.
9. They have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
10. They have the Spirit of Christ in them.
11. They are children of God, having received the Spirit of adoption, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
12. They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
13. They shall not be separated from the love of Christ.
14. They are not their own as they were bought at a price. They are Christ’s. They are God’s.
15. They were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God.
16. Their bodies are members of Christ. Together they are one body, the body of Christ, and members individually.
17. Their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
18. They are a new creation in Christ.
19. They are children of promise.
20. They were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
21. They were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to God.
22. They have in Christ obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of God.
23. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of their inheritance.
24. They were made alive together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
25. They have been saved by grace through faith.
26. They are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to walk in.
27. God works in them both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
28. Their citizenship is in heaven, not in this world.
29. They have been delivered by the Father from the power of darkness and were conveyed into the kingdom of the Son, Jesus Christ.
30. They were, in Christ, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.
31. They have been forgiven of all trespasses.
32. They are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

33. They were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I hope you will have no issue with the term I use “elect of God”, and move on.

Tong
R2926

You so funny!
I did not object to you using your personal term....genuine Christians...I said if you want to include it in our discussion you had to define it.

Do any of the scriptures you listed here have the word elect in them? Reading through them I do not see the word elect, if I missed one, let me know.

I know that the scriptures use the word elect...and I believe that applies to all Christians. And you will not find a scripture that says..."The Elect only applies to some Christians."

 

[Tong2020]

I did not say that, the scriptures say that and I agree. Dead as a theological relative term. I was still alive and kicking. But before I was a Christian I was not a Christian...But I do not remember a time that I did not believe in Christ...4 years, riding my tricycle singing hymns

So you agree that you were raised with Christ. Do you believe that to be true?

Tong
R2927

 

[Grailhunter]

So you agree that you were raised with Christ. Do you believe that to be true?

Tong
R2927

Again you are talking about theological terms. Do I believe I walked out of the tomb with Christ when He was resurrected...NO.
If you are talking about being spiritually raised from Baptism...yes. Again raised is a relative theological term....no one floats out of baptism.

 

[Tong2020]

You so funny!
I did not object to you using your personal term....genuine Christians...I said if you want to include it in our discussion you had to define it.

Do any of the scriptures you listed here have the word elect in them? Reading through them I do not see the word elect, if I missed one, let me know.

I know that the scriptures use the word elect...and I believe that applies to all Christians. And you will not find a scripture that says..."The Elect only applies to some Christians."

I am really not so sure if you really like to discuss. I dropped the term that you have an issue with and use a term found in scriptures so we can skip that issue and move on.

<<<I know that the scriptures use the word elect...and I believe that applies to all Christians. >>>

Well you also know that the scriptures used the word genuine and the word Christian.

Do you believe that Christians refer to themselves as brethren? Do you believe that there are false brethren? Now, do you believe that the false brethren are elect of God?

Tong
R2928

 

[Tong2020]

@Ferris Bueller

Perhaps it would be helpful to list here what scriptures says of the elect of God.

1. They were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
2. They have been justified by faith, having been justified by the blood of Christ Jesus.
3. The love of God has been poured out in their hearts.
4. They have died to sin.
5. They are not under law but under grace.
6. They have been set free from sin.
7. They have been delivered from the law.
8. They are in Christ Jesus and in the Spirit.
9. They have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
10. They have the Spirit of Christ in them.
11. They are children of God, having received the Spirit of adoption, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
12. They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
13. They shall not be separated from the love of Christ.
14. They are not their own as they were bought at a price. They are Christ’s. They are God’s.
15. They were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God.
16. Their bodies are members of Christ. Together they are one body, the body of Christ, and members individually.
17. Their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
18. They are a new creation in Christ.
19. They are children of promise.
20. They were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
21. They were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to God.
22. They have in Christ obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of God.
23. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of their inheritance.
24. They were made alive together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
25. They have been saved by grace through faith.
26. They are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to walk in.
27. God works in them both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
28. Their citizenship is in heaven, not in this world.
29. They have been delivered by the Father from the power of darkness and were conveyed into the kingdom of the Son, Jesus Christ.
30. They were, in Christ, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.
31. They have been forgiven of all trespasses.
32. They are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

33. They were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you believe all those in the list?

Tong
R2929

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So you agree that you were raised with Christ. Do you believe that to be true?

Again you are talking about theological terms. Do I believe I walked out of the tomb with Christ when He was resurrected...NO.
If you are talking about being spiritually raised from Baptism...yes. Again raised is a relative theological term....no one floats out of baptism.

I am using biblical terms.

“Spiritually raised”, is that a biblical term?

Tong
R2930

 

[Grailhunter]

I am really not so sure if you really like to discuss. I dropped the term that you have an issue with and use a term found in scriptures so we can skip that issue and move on.

All good but again all I wanted you to do was define your personal term.

Well you also know that the scriptures used the word genuine and the word Christian.

Yes but not in a phrase. The Greek word for genuine and true are mostly interchangeable so translations have that latitude to go either way. Ok, here is one for ya....and I ask also thee, genuine yoke-fellow, be assisting those women who in the good news did strive along with me, with Clement also, and the others, my fellow-workers, whose names 'are' in the book of life.

Do you believe that Christians refer to themselves as brethren? Do you believe that there are false brethren? Now, do you believe that the false brethren are elect of God?

Brethren and saints
I believe the Bible does not differentiate any differences between Christians and the elect.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am using biblical terms.

“Spiritually raised”, is that a biblical term?

Tong
R2930

No.
I am saying that people do not float around.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You and I can agree on the multitude of sins, corruption, and atrocities committed by the Catholic Church...History...right.
But you cannot blame all the Pagan customs that exist in various Protestant religions. Jewish Christian sects were pretty much gone within the first century. No post biblical writings from Jewish Christians.

The Pagans that were converting to Christianity...Gentiles...they adopted Christian teachings as best they could because there was no Bible...random tests that some did make it into the Bible and some did not. The first time the texts were bound together in a book was the Bibles Emperor Constantine ordered to be collected and bound. Called the 50 Bibles of Constantine.

This is interesting considering Peter called the writings of Paul scripture. Which shows that at the time jews all over the roman empire were reading the word with pauls writings included.

I do not think God waited until constantine to make sure his word was complete. And his word was not available to all people.

Now the Gentiles Christians did not abandon all of the regional customs ... Over time they did Christianize them, and that goes for holidays too. The most well known custom that was Pagan, that Christianity adopted was the wedding ceremony. Nowhere in the Bible, Old or New Testaments, are wedding ceremonies required. The Hebrew language does not even have a word for wedding. Christian weddings were modeled after Roman weddings and that is why so many Pagan customs still exist in Christian weddings.
Then of course you have all the holidays that most Protestants observe.

I am more talking about the temples converted to cathedrals. The eucharistic paganization of the lords supper. The rite of Purgatory or making penance for ones sins which was purely a pagan attribute. The POPE as vicar. who took over from the high priest of the pagan vicar or religion (in Rome it was Caesar who was high priest) and the many other pagan rites added to the gospel of christ and termed christian.

Throughout the New Testament warning of sins and there effects and punishments are noted. Specifically several scriptures explain the sins that will prevent Christian from going to heaven....see Post 3569 of this thread. I am not going to pull them into here, there are to many.

So which sin did Christ not die for? I am just curious. I mean was it not jesus who said let he who has no sin cast the first stone? Did not the law state perfection was required if we were to justifiy ourselves? Did Not james state if we kept the whol elaw yet stumble in one point, we are guilty?

so if NO ONE can be worthy no matter what sin or how many sin they commit. How can one all of a sudden become unworthy because they commit some sin or Number of sins? ie. How good is good enough? Who has earned the righteousness

Remember, When paul named sins, SIns the corinthian church were actively committing. He did not say they stopped those sins (they did not) he said they were washed, justified and sanctified in the name of Jesus.

So sorry man, If you want to water down the law. Feel free. But I can't do that. I deserve hell where i stand. Apart from Grave, I have no hope period.

People do twist scriptures but that sin reside mostly with the OSAS group. They twist scriptures and only recognize the scriptures they like. Those that oppose OSAS quite scriptures from the Bible, but the OSAS people call that legalism. The Bible is not legalist. There is not a legalist section in the Bible...You have to read the whole Bible and understand...if you don't all these kondike beliefs pop up and believe you me the Protestants have enough denominations.

Yawn. Legalists do twist scriptures. A legalist by definition claims one must earn, maintain or keep their salvation by doing someithig (be it staying in faith, Stopping sin, Doing a list of works) it is making salvation a wage and not a gift. The wage of sin is death, The GIFT of God is eternal life. You cant earn it, If you cant earn something you cant unearn it. Yet people say they can, Now there is a contradiction

Oh my! The Bible is not legalist or licentious. It is the truth. You have Jehovah's Witnesses, you have Calvinists, you have Voodooist, OSAS, New age...the new denomination that marches to the drum of social and politic values and beliefs and OSAS are included in the new denomination beliefs. Sin all you want and go to heaven...Heaven full of evil! Again where are the good people going to go? Is God going to have to move out of heaven? Do you think that good people are going to consider it a reward to go somewhere full of evildoers....the homosexuals, the cannibals, the abortion doctors, the gang members, the rapists, child molesters, those that lay with animals, murderers...not a comfortable place for good Christians.

Your right the bible is the truth

Yet paul spent most of his writings condemning legalism, And James and jude condemned licentious thinking. Those who teach a gospel that has no power to saved.

Grace is the power that saved, Not your works, your ability or your faith.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I am using biblical terms.

“Spiritually raised”, is that a biblical term?

No.
I am saying that people do not float around.

Yes they do not. So that is settled.

Do you agree that when scriptures says that Christ was raised, it means He was made alive?

Tong
R2931

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Do you believe that Christians refer to themselves as brethren? Do you believe that there are false brethren? Now, do you believe that the false brethren are elect of God?

Brethren and saints
I believe the Bible does not differentiate any differences between Christians and the elect.

I can go with that.

Now, do you believe that there are false brethren? If so, do you say that they are the elect of God?

Tong
R2932

 

[Grailhunter]

This is interesting considering Peter called the writings of Paul scripture. Which shows that at the time jews all over the roman empire were reading the word with pauls writings included. I do not think God waited until constantine to make sure his word was complete. And his word was not available to all people.

Did not say that there were not valid texts and texts that made it into the first Bible.
We do know that there were favored texts that did not make it into the Bible.
And we do not know if these texts selected for the Bible ever resided in one place during the biblical era.

I am more talking about the temples converted to cathedrals.

Yeap there were Christian churches built on top of Pagan temples....or the ruins of Pagan temples.

The eucharistic paganization of the lords supper.

If you are talking about the bread and wine ritual...I find no Paganism in it. Christ instituted this and performed it....Christ is not a Pagan. He warned that not performing meant that you did not abide in Him or Him in you....there is no life in you....and he will not raise you on the last day. This ritual seems shocking to some. In deed His own Apostles reacted to it negatively, His disciples no longer walked with Him, and the conversation he was having with the others stopped. He felt this ritual was so important that He was willing to risk His ministry on it.

The rite of Purgatory or making penance for ones sins which was purely a pagan attribute. The POPE as vicar. who took over from the high priest of the pagan vicar or religion (in Rome it was Caesar who was high priest) and the many other pagan rites added to the gospel of christ and termed christian.

Agreed.

So which sin did Christ not die for? I am just curious. I mean was it not jesus who said let he who has no sin cast the first stone? Did not the law state perfection was required if we were to justifiy ourselves? Did Not james state if we kept the whol elaw yet stumble in one point, we are guilty?

I am not sure what you are getting at here. If you keep one Law you have to keep all 613 Mosaic Laws and welcome to the Old Covenant you are a Jew...not a Christian. Are you planning on selling your daughter as a sex slave....because you can according to the Mosaic Law.

so if NO ONE can be worthy no matter what sin or how many sin they commit. How can one all of a sudden become unworthy because they commit some sin or Number of sins? ie. How good is good enough? Who has earned the righteousness

Again not sure of everything you are getting at here. If you are having trouble understanding what good is...we can work on that
If you are having trouble understanding what evil is...we can work on that.
The Bible tell us what is not going to make it to heaven...absolutely clear...I have already given you the location of those scriptures.
In context your average Christian is going to sin. Ask for forgiveness and be forgiven....It is not wrong of Christ to expect us to learn from our mistake...evil...sinful lifestyles is another matter. You cannot repent something you intend to do.

Remember, When paul named sins, SIns the corinthian church were actively committing. He did not say they stopped those sins (they did not) he said they were washed, justified and sanctified in the name of Jesus.

Again your biblical understanding is back to all matter of evil goes to heaven...How is that a reward for good people. All in all the OSAS crowd views good people as the enemy...if you are good your are self-righteous. And then parts of the Bible are the legalist sections.

Yawn. Legalists do twist scriptures. A legalist by definition claims one must earn, maintain or keep their salvation by doing someithig (be it staying in faith, Stopping sin, Doing a list of works) it is making salvation a wage and not a gift. The wage of sin is death, The GIFT of God is eternal life. You cant earn it, If you cant earn something you cant unearn it. Yet people say they can, Now there is a contradiction

Why would they do all that? When all they have to do is quote the Bible to shoot your beliefs down.

Yet paul spent most of his writings condemning legalism,

LOL, Just ah, No! He was referring to the ministry of death engraved on stones...the Mosaic Law. Explaining Christians are not of the Law...and if you look to the Law for justification you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace. You wouldn't have any Ten Commandments posted anywhere, would ya? LOL

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes they do not. So that is settled.

Do you agree that when scriptures says that Christ was raised, it means He was made alive?

Tong
R2931

"Made a live" He resurrected in a body that could eat and drink.

 

[Grailhunter]

I can go with that.

Now, do you believe that there are false brethren? If so, do you say that they are the elect of God?

Tong
R2932

That decision of judgment is above our paygrade.

 

[marks]

I agree, People love to spin things, I think those who hate OSAS are in effect are just hating calvinistic teachings, Since they hate fatalism, and since OSAS is a fatalistic view in their minds, Well then they have to reject it at all cost.

Like you said, I prefer to go with just using modern or biblical terms (the term OSAS is not found in scripture so is easy to dismiss.

I prefer things like to show what a person receives the moment they are saved. In other words, ONE A PERSON IS SAVED (OS) what happens?

1. They are given eternal life (john 3, John 6, John 10, Romans 6, Titus 3 plus many others)
2. They are given every spiritual blessing under heaven (eph 1)
3. They are given the pledge of the spirit (eph 1)
4. They are redeemed (gal 3, 1 Peter1, Rev 5)
5. They are justified (Rom 3, 4, 5 and 8, 1 Cor 6, Titus 3,)
6. Heirs (gal 3, titus 3)
7. Adopted sons and daughters (eph 1, Gal 3, Gal 4, 1 Thes 5, Heb 12)
8. Given spirit of peace sound mind, and adoption (rom 8, 2 tim 1)
9. Everything which was against us is nailed to the cross (col 2)
10. Spiritually circumcized/baptized (col 2)
11. Saved (literally rescued) (rom 5, 10, eph 2, 2 Tim 1, Titus 3)
12. Perfected forever, while being sanctified (heb 10)
13. Given the right to become children of God (john 1)
14. Will never hunger, thirst, Die, Will live forever, have eternal life and assured of being raised on the last day (john 6)
15. Given the water flowing to eternal life (john 4)
16 Have passed from death to life (rom 5, eph 2, col 2)

I can go on and on and on.

But what we know from scripture is this. One a person is Saved, According to everything the bible tells us about that person. He will Always remain Saved (OSAS)

I prefer the term eternally secure, ie eternal life vs conditional life. But OSAS is really saying the same thing a different way. Although I see why people hate it based on their hate of calvinism. which is sad.

Great post!

That's a very interesting thought about the fatalism of Calvinism.

If we simply believe all that is written, not leaving anything out, we won't need to discuss this, we will all know, eternal life is something you can have, and you can know you have it, and God intends it to be that way.

Much love!