Would the Real Elijah Please Come Forth!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, stefen.

I have even more points to re insist that Only these two will come at end times.. If we study on the topics of what is paradise, Lazarus story, Where did Jesus gone after His death on cross, Samuel came up from earth and some more verses speaks about the holy people died in OT and some verses in revelation, we can come the above conclusion that Moses and Elijah have to come to the earth at end times.

And the resurrected body would not be like ours (may be), As Jesus came inside the closed doors also, He suddenly appeared in lots of places after he was risen. So, It has more possibility that these two will come with their own body at end times.. It has very less chance that their spirit will work in any two of the people in the end times.

Thanks

Allow me to give you a simple syllogism as to what and WHERE "Paradise" (Greek: "paradeisos") is:

If you look up the word "paradise" in the KJV, you will find that the word occurs three times, all in the NT:

Luke 23:43 (the account of Elezar or "Lazarus" and the rich man, of which you are obviously aware),
2 Corinthians 12:4 (where Paul mentions the "third heaven"), and
Revelation 2:7.

If you look up "paradeisos" in the Greek Dictionary of Strong's Concordance, you will find this:

NT:3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos); of Oriental origin [compare OT:6508]; a park, i.e. (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
KJV - paradise.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Now, look up the Hebrew word to which "OT:6508" refers:

OT:6508 pardeec (par-dace'); of foreign origin; a park:
KJV - forest, orchard.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, if you will then look up "forest" and "orchard" in Strong's Concordance, looking specifically for where those words are translated from OT:6508 pardeec (or you can use Englishman's Concordance to look up OT:6508 directly), you will find that this word occurs three times also:

Nehemiah 2:8
8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
KJV

Ecclesiastes 2:5
5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:
KJV

Song of Solomon 4:13
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
KJV

Thus, the words mean a "park," an "orchard," or simply, a "park of trees," just as the Garden of Eden was!

Now, let's go back to Revelation 2:7 (Yeshua` or Jesus doing the talking):


Revelation 2:1-7
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

So, where IS this "paradise of God?" Well, where is the "tree of life?"

Revelation 21:1-22:2
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

So, the tree of life is in the "midst of the paradise of God" and it is in the "midst of the street of the New Jerusalem!" That means that either the "paradise (tree-park or orchard) of God" is WITHIN the New Jerusalem OR it IS the New Jerusalem! Either way, it will be upon the New Earth after the 1000 years of Revelation 20.

To support this understanding further, compare and harmonize 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 with Revelation 20:1 through 22:5. One will find (if he can remain objective and honest) that Paul's "third heaven" is the same as Peter's "new heavens" and John's "new heaven." It will be the third "heaven" or "sky" around the "third earth" or "new earth," the New Earth's ATMOSPHERE where the birds will fly!

Now, try to go back and amend your theory based on this information. LORD bless you in your studies!

 

[stefen]

Ok. As you have been trying to explain about paradise here..! You have missed one more verse in New Testament which was used by Jesus Christ to the thief crossed next to Him. He said, I will see you in paradise tomorrow. What is this mean?? Jesus went to Paradise after His death on cross. Then He resurrected again.

This topic becomes interesting now. Why did Jesus gone to Paradise on next day and where do all the dead will go now and who died before BC?

 

[Rex]

I realize English is not your first language but this always come to mind when I hear this verse quoted,

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you Today, shall you be with me in paradise.

And I'm the worst offender of not using commas LOL

 

[stefen]

OK ok.. :) sorry for it. But you should feel happy for using more punctuational marks..!

Thanks for understanding.

 

[Rex]

OK ok.. :) sorry for it. But you should feel happy for using more punctuational marks..!

Thanks for understanding.

From what I understand Greek doesn't use punctuation marks.
In that verse by changing the location of the comma by one word you completely change the meaning of the sentence.
That's what I was trying to say.

Thank you as well

 

[stefen]

Yeah. English is not my 1st or even 2nd language. Learned to speak / write it out of interest after the age of 22 in 2007.


Thanks Retrobryter for making clear on the word Paradise through different verses. In my Own language, Paradise means.. Belongs to other country / world.
In the continuation of the above earlier posted questions..! And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

Jesus also went to paradise after His death on cross..! There was different opinion on Samuel was risen from dead by a woman to tell about Saul's future. Some say that It was not actual Samuel and how can a prophet can come when a demon possessed woman calls up from dead? What do you think about this?

All these above answers may lead to the Elijah or Elijah's spirit will come at end times..!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

Perhaps you should have listened when I quoted you the Scripture and said that your conscience bears witness either for or against you, whether for the good or for the bad, your thoughts meanwhile either accusing or excusing you before the throne. You have a "right tree" and a "left tree" not unlike the analogy of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil or Tree of Life, (mind and eyes of the flesh or mind and eyes of the Spirit). Therefore if your right tree offends you cut him down, if your right eye is become a nomad-wanderer pluck him out and cast him from you, if your right hand offends you cut him off and cast him from you: for the Most High has said that he will raise up a shepherd in the land, (and the man is the land) which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. "Woe to the idol shepherd that abandons the flock: the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened!"

And all his rivers, streams, and waterways shall be turned into blood in the Great Day when the towers fall ... ;)

QUIT DOING THAT!!! You continue to take Scripture, twist it with your own words, and then attempt to pass it off as though it came from Scripture! FOR INSTANCE,...

You said, "Therefore if your right tree offends you cut him down, if your right eye is become a nomad-wanderer pluck him out and cast him from you, if your right hand offends you cut him off and cast him from you...!" The Scriptures said NO SUCH THING!!! This is all coming out of YOUR mind and mouth (or keyboard)! You THINK you're expounding on the Scriptures, but you only THINK that! You're actually ADDING to the Scriptures "stuff" that is not only NOT there, but "stuff" that SHOULDN'T BE THERE!

There's that Yin-Yang principle again! You're seeing it in EVERYTHING, and it's NOT THERE! Again for instance, you claim that the "tree of life" and the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is such a dualism. It is NOT! First of all, the two trees were NOT "an analogy"; they were REAL TREES! Second, Adam and Chavah were to eat of EVERY tree in the Garden EXCEPT the tree of the knowledge of good and evil! They were NOT even told where the tree of life was! And, there was no "magic" in either tree. When they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and disobeyed God in the eating, it was a simple irony! They couldn't tell the difference between themselves and God before they ate; God is good and they were good. After they ate and disobeyed, God is still good, but they were then evil! They could then tell the difference and had the knowledge of the difference!

And, the diagram here is NOT "two trees" or the "left side" vs. the "right side." That's the theory that gave rise to the idea of a "right(eous) side" and a "sinister side." The circulatory system is a CIRCULATION of blood! Just as electricity is cycled through the wiring from the generator (or alternator) and back to the generator through the various loads, so the blood in the circulatory system goes from the heart, throughout the body, and back to the heart!

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.



QUIT DOING THAT!!! You continue to take Scripture, twist it with your own words, and then attempt to pass it off as though it came from Scripture! FOR INSTANCE,...

You said, "Therefore if your right tree offends you cut him down, if your right eye is become a nomad-wanderer pluck him out and cast him from you, if your right hand offends you cut him off and cast him from you...!" The Scriptures said NO SUCH THING!!! This is all coming out of YOUR mind and mouth (or keyboard)! You THINK you're expounding on the Scriptures, but you only THINK that! You're actually ADDING to the Scriptures "stuff" that is not only NOT there, but "stuff" that SHOULDN'T BE THERE!

There's that Yin-Yang principle again! You're seeing it in EVERYTHING, and it's NOT THERE! Again for instance, you claim that the "tree of life" and the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is such a dualism. It is NOT! First of all, the two trees were NOT "an analogy"; they were REAL TREES! Second, Adam and Chavah were to eat of EVERY tree in the Garden EXCEPT the tree of the knowledge of good and evil! They were NOT even told where the tree of life was! And, there was no "magic" in either tree. When they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and disobeyed God in the eating, it was a simple irony! They couldn't tell the difference between themselves and God before they ate; God is good and they were good. After they ate and disobeyed, God is still good, but they were then evil! They could then tell the difference and had the knowledge of the difference!

And, the diagram here is NOT "two trees" or the "left side" vs. the "right side." That's the theory that gave rise to the idea of a "right(eous) side" and a "sinister side." The circulatory system is a CIRCULATION of blood! Just as electricity is cycled through the wiring from the generator (or alternator) and back to the generator through the various loads, so the blood in the circulatory system goes from the heart, throughout the body, and back to the heart!

Do you not know that the nephesh-soul resides in the blood?
Perhaps you are swimming in your own blood if this is true?
Ever notice that DNA is like a vine?

Ezekiel 19:14 KJV
10. Thy mother is like a vine in thy blood, planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters.
11. And she had strong rods for the sceptres of them that bare rule, and her stature was exalted among the thick branches, and she appeared in her height with the multitude of her branches.
12. But she was plucked up in fury, she was cast down to the ground, and the east wind dried up her fruit: her strong rods were broken and withered; the fire consumed them.
13. And now she is planted in the wilderness, in a dry and thirsty ground.
14. And fire is gone out of a rod of her branches, which hath devoured her fruit, so that she hath no strong rod to be a sceptre to rule. This is a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation.

Deuteronomy 32:29-34 KJV
29. O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30. How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?
31. For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32. For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33. Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34. Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

Yonah also teaches about the circulatory system and that the heart is the temple:

Jonah 2:1-8 KJV
1. Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
7. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8. They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

So if one's mother is in his blood "like a vine" and that vine is the wicked vine, which is the vine of Sodom, then his mother is "drunk with the blood of the saints" (if indeed that one is truly a faithful believer to the end). If you need something modern to help you understand the old ways then picture yourself like Rick Moranis in "Honey I shrunk Myself" and shrink yourself way down to your true size. Likewise understand and believe it when the Scripture tells us who our "mother" is, (Jerusalem of above) and perhaps you might begin to understand the two covenants because the "harlot mother" is Egypt and Sodom in typology; this is not a literal physical city but an allegory of covenants as Paul clearly states. The harlot mother and those of her seed perceive everything according to the eyes and mind of the flesh. And if these things be the case then you are extremely presumptuous in commanding me to stop speaking the truth. Please stop commanding others and judge yourself before it is too late; for it appears that one of your olivet-zeytiym branches is supplying tainted oil to your lamp: and if the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! :lol:

 

[guysmith]

daq,

You stated: Why did he confess he was not Elijah? Perhaps because he was John, (yet the Spirit of Elijah was upon him).

My response: So, what is your point?

 

[John_8:32]

You missed Enoch and just because Moses's body was not found did not mean he did not die. Even if he died he could have been taken, body and all to Heaven - in the same fashion as the Two Witnesses.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Includes Enoch and Elijah.

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

And He said the above to the twelve who became Apostles.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah. None have received the promise yet. None go to heaven, Christ comes back here.

 

[daq]

daq,

You stated: Why did he confess he was not Elijah? Perhaps because he was John, (yet the Spirit of Elijah was upon him).

My response: So, what is your point?

John 1:20-21 KJV
20. And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Matthew 11:13-15 KJV
13. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 17:11-13 KJV
11. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John is clearly a man, (the man is the soul) and claims that he is not Elijah, (and he is not).
Elijah is not a physical man but rather an anthropos-man-faced-countenance, (which is Spirit).
However, not all anthropon-man-faced are of the good genos-kind:

Matthew 10:16-20
16. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17. But beware of the anthropon-man-faced: for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18. And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the heathen.
19. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Likewise beware of "the leaven of Herod, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees" as the Master forewarns us all;
For all those are likewise of the anthropon-man-faced fierce countenance of `Az (Deuteronomy 28:49-50, Daniel 8:23).
And walk according to the Spirit or the same genos-kind will "slay" you towards "the End" (Matthew 24:9) ... :)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, stefen.

Yeah. English is not my 1st or even 2nd language. Learned to speak / write it out of interest after the age of 22 in 2007.


Thanks Retrobryter for making clear on the word Paradise through different verses. In my Own language, Paradise means.. Belongs to other country / world.
In the continuation of the above earlier posted questions..! And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

Jesus also went to paradise after His death on cross..! There was different opinion on Samuel was risen from dead by a woman to tell about Saul's future. Some say that It was not actual Samuel and how can a prophet can come when a demon possessed woman calls up from dead? What do you think about this?

All these above answers may lead to the Elijah or Elijah's spirit will come at end times..!

You're quite welcome. I do not use the same verse in a proof for that verse. To do so is to invite "circular reasoning." This is the only reason why I did not talk directly about Luke 23:43. So, NOW, let's go back and revisit this verse. The key to a proper understanding of any verse is to see it within its context:

Luke 23:38-47
38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.
KJV

Now, allow me to give you a little more from both the Greek and the Hebrew languages:

First, the word that is usually translated as "soul" in the Hebrew of the OT is "nefesh." The Greek word of the NT is "psuchee" from which we get our word "psyche."

The word that is usually translated as "spirit" in the Hebrew of the OT is "ruach." The Greek word of the NT is "pneuma" from which we get our word "pneumatic."

Both words for "soul" mean "one that breathes" or is "animated." Both words for "spirit" mean "wind" or "forceful breath" or a "stiff breeze."

So, when Genesis 2:7 said,

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man (Hebrew: haa'aadaam meaning "the red [one]") of the dust of the ground (Hebrew: haa'adaamaah, a feminine form also meaning "the red" as "red earth" or "the red dirt"), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Hebrew: nishmat meaning "a puff") of life (Hebrew: chayiym meaning "life"); and man became a living soul (Hebrew: "nefesh" meaning "breathing creature").
KJV

Later, Genesis records this about the Flood:

Genesis 7:21-22
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath (Hebrew: nishmat ruach meaning "a puff of wind/breath") of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV

Some make the error of thinking that man has a soul but animals do not, but actually, the Hebrew indicates that both man and animals are EACH a "soul" (nefesh) and EACH has a "spirit" (ruach)!

If we think purely concretely first, we can see how this could be: a man (the body without life) was formed from the dust of the ground. Then God puffed a breath (ruach) of life into that lifeless body, and man became a living creature that breathes (nefesh)! (This is how we learned to do CPR, by the way.)

Now, if one wants to think of the "immaterial part of a person" as being the "spirit," then the "soul" is a combination of the body and the "spirit," just as the "breathing person" is a combination of the body and the "breath."

So, when Yeshua` (Jesus) gave up His "spirit," (pneuma, the Greek equivalent of "ruach") commending it into His Father's hands, He was giving up the ONLY part of Himself that was immaterial. The material body of Yeshua` stayed behind on the cross and was buried. Now, here's where it gets a little tricky to understand: The body went to "sh'owl" (some write "sheol") which simply means the "unseen" just as does the Greek equivalent, "hadees" (some write "hades") which also means "unseen." This is a Hebrew idiom meaning the "grave." Ever hear the phrase, "Out of sight, out of mind?" That's the concept involved in this term.

However, the "spirit," the only immaterial portion of Yeshua`, went to His Father's house, the New Jerusalem! Remember Yeshua`s words?

John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions (Greek: monai meaning "places of residence"): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

And where is His Father's house?

Revelation 21:2-3
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee meaning a Bedouin's "tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

And, we are told that this was the same as Abraham's "tent-home":

Hebrews 11:8-10
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: skeenais, the plural, locative case of skeenee) with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
KJV

So, Yeshua` went on ahead to the New Jerusalem in spirit, going back to His Father's "tent-home." That was also where the thief on the cross would be going. However, He did not yet have His body with Him during this brief visit, which is why He said to Miryam (Mary) later,

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
KJV

Here, He was talking about the fact that, now He had risen, His new body had not yet been presented to His Father! Can you understand all this? My point is that we are sometimes fed a theory as though it was a fact, but hardly anyone RESEARCHES the theory in the light of the Scriptures! Be extremely careful with theories and TEST THEM ALL against the Scriptures, particularly in the original languages, if you can! It's important if one expects to reason correctly with the particulars and the details!

 

[tgwprophet]

John_8:32 wrote: " Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah. None have received the promise yet. None go to heaven, Christ comes back here. "

I only have a slight problem with this, and it is that... for example; Moses was seen talking with Jesus on earth. Now, was he asleep in a grave, only to go back to his grave? Was he in a different Heaven or a part of Heaven? Was he in a holding pattern waiting? - I can allow God to answer those questions instead of me trying a feeble attampt at using the wisdom I currently possess, but regardless, I am quite content waiting, that I may learn of such things ( meaning there are allot of questions I really have no good answer for ) when I can understand them in the fullness of the context God can provide. Also, there are questions I have that will be answered in their fulness before Armageddon and of course those questions are about events or things related to the prophecies that will transpire prrior to and including Armageddon.
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Retrobyter, Daq wrote his understanding of Scripture, not Scripture. He does this often and the real problem with this is adding to or taking away from Scripture concerning End Times is a given that it is wrong and punishable. Now, when Daq adds to or takes from Scripture and though it seemingly is not of Revelation prophecies, yet it is during the time of Revelation prophecy fulfillment AND his posts are about his understanding in a Revelation prophecy aspect of this Forum - thus having a direct link to prophecy of Revelation it si indeed adding to or taking away. Since his concerns have often been focused at me.... One of the Two Witnesses it surely does cause a problem for him, a problem, Ii wish ( sincerely ) that could be separated form the above link to Revelation prophecy and this is one of the main reasons I request those that are skeptable to hold their tongue.
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Retrobyter, You are correct in addressing this issue about Daq, and I do not mean to imply that I think you are not skeptable of me. As I have said many times... I have no problem with a person that is skepticle, I also have no problem with those who wish to challenge me, in factt I encourage it. Many "claimers" have arrisen in the last years and it certainly is not the end of them. Just give them enough rope and they will hang themselves, anyone can try to do the same with me... I encourage that as well, becasue I know I will NOT be hanging myself. Read the posts in other forums by "claimers" they certainly do not speak as I do, for I have read many a post from "claimers" as well and they really do hang themselves.
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It is my wish that we allow the questions about me to rest until a proper and valid test ic discovered and in it's stead we move on to aspects of prophecy that will assist my wisdom, for in doing that... In front of God and Christ Jesus, my testamony would be... These people HELPED me and taught me understandings I knew not. I have seen many times where it was posted as a conclusive truth that prophets were never wrong, orr that prophets knew more than anyone else... Do they not know prophets used Ministers and other prophets to help guide them? - Certainly because hey knew they did not know it all, but it was given as God considered needed, even if that giving was provided through a Minister or another prophet. With this one can arrive at the knowleedge that I certainly do NOT consider that I know it all, pr thatI do not make mistakes. When I do err, I "try" (I would like to be better at this) to ensure that I admit it. Ok, I think I have covered all the necessary bases concerning ME in this thread and so I believe I will discontinue this one... I really never cared about posting about me, though I do wish a proper and valid test could be devised that would enable all here to know I am not a "claimer."
Just think of the things we could possibly ACHIEVE, as ones united instead of divided.

 

[daq]

Blue emphasis mine:

John_8:32 wrote: " Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah. None have received the promise yet. None go to heaven, Christ comes back here. "

I only have a slight problem with this, and it is that... for example; Moses was seen talking with Jesus on earth. Now, was he asleep in a grave, only to go back to his grave? Was he in a different Heaven or a part of Heaven? Was he in a holding pattern waiting? - I can allow God to answer those questions instead of me trying a feeble attampt at using the wisdom I currently possess, but regardless, I am quite content waiting, that I may learn of such things ( meaning there are allot of questions I really have no good answer for ) when I can understand them in the fullness of the context God can provide. Also, there are questions I have that will be answered in their fulness before Armageddon and of course those questions are about events or things related to the prophecies that will transpire prrior to and including Armageddon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retrobyter, Daq wrote his understanding of Scripture, not Scripture. He does this often and the real problem with this is adding to or taking away from Scripture concerning End Times is a given that it is wrong and punishable. Now, when Daq adds to or takes from Scripture and though it seemingly is not of Revelation prophecies, yet it is during the time of Revelation prophecy fulfillment AND his posts are about his understanding in a Revelation prophecy aspect of this Forum - thus having a direct link to prophecy of Revelation it si indeed adding to or taking away. Since his concerns have often been focused at me.... One of the Two Witnesses it surely does cause a problem for him, a problem, Ii wish ( sincerely ) that could be separated form the above link to Revelation prophecy and this is one of the main reasons I request those that are skeptable to hold their tongue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Retrobyter, You are correct in addressing this issue about Daq, and I do not mean to imply that I think you are not skeptable of me. As I have said many times... I have no problem with a person that is skepticle, I also have no problem with those who wish to challenge me, in factt I encourage it. Many "claimers" have arrisen in the last years and it certainly is not the end of them. Just give them enough rope and they will hang themselves, anyone can try to do the same with me... I encourage that as well, becasue I know I will NOT be hanging myself. Read the posts in other forums by "claimers" they certainly do not speak as I do, for I have read many a post from "claimers" as well and they really do hang themselves.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is my wish that we allow the questions about me to rest until a proper and valid test ic discovered and in it's stead we move on to aspects of prophecy that will assist my wisdom, for in doing that... In front of God and Christ Jesus, my testamony would be... These people HELPED me and taught me understandings I knew not. I have seen many times where it was posted as a conclusive truth that prophets were never wrong, orr that prophets knew more than anyone else... Do they not know prophets used Ministers and other prophets to help guide them? - Certainly because hey knew they did not know it all, but it was given as God considered needed, even if that giving was provided through a Minister or another prophet. With this one can arrive at the knowleedge that I certainly do NOT consider that I know it all, pr thatI do not make mistakes. When I do err, I "try" (I would like to be better at this) to ensure that I admit it. Ok, I think I have covered all the necessary bases concerning ME in this thread and so I believe I will discontinue this one... I really never cared about posting about me, though I do wish a proper and valid test could be devised that would enable all here to know I am not a "claimer."
Just think of the things we could possibly ACHIEVE, as ones united instead of divided.

More false accusations of "adding" to the Word from those who know nothing of the Word. I will tell you both what is going to be "punishable" and that I do by the Word as always:

Deuteronomy 18:13-20 KJV
13. Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.
14. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
15. The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16. According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. [Yeshua ha-Mowshiya`-Messias]
19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Simply one more failed test for you terry ... :)

 

[John_8:32]

John_8:32 wrote: " Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah. None have received the promise yet. None go to heaven, Christ comes back here. "

I only have a slight problem with this, and it is that... for example; Moses was seen talking with Jesus on earth. Now, was he asleep in a grave, only to go back to his grave? Was he in a different Heaven or a part of Heaven? Was he in a holding pattern waiting? - I can allow God to answer those questions instead of me trying a feeble attampt at using the wisdom I currently possess, but regardless, I am quite content waiting, that I may learn of such things ( meaning there are allot of questions I really have no good answer for ) when I can understand them in the fullness of the context God can provide. Also, there are questions I have that will be answered in their fulness before Armageddon and of course those questions are about events or things related to the prophecies that will transpire prrior to and including Armageddon.

The slight problem you have is you didn't read all of the passage...

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was not reality, it was a vision.

 

[tgwprophet]

A vision meaning they saw him...hmmm - or do you mean a vision as.. they did NOT see him?
You contend they did not SEE Moses... they were delusional yet accurate?
I contend they saw him, whether he was in a full-color physical form or in a spiritual form yet still leaves my stand in the same position.

 

[JohnnyJ]

Look at Matthew 17:11-13 and see the bold, underline, and italics which are my emphasis. Let's use simple word analysis and summarize the integral meaning of the verses. Pay attention to the tense of the verbs. These are the things we were taught in school.

Matthew 17:11-13 (NKJV): 11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

If I say, “Jesus is coming, but Jesus has come.”, you quickly discern the meaning. That is, He was here once but comes again. No one argues with that one.

If I say, “Elijah is coming, but Elijah has come.”, then why do many shepherds and prophecy teachers use an alternative reasoning and teach that Elijah (John who comes in the spirit of Elijah) is not returning before the Lord? The LORD rebuke them!

IF you say that the latter part of the Elijah sentence "...but Elijah has come." somehow cancels out the first part of the Elijah sentence "Elijah is coming,..." and we should not expect another return of his spirit, THEN why should you not say that the latter part of the Jesus sentence "...but Jesus has come." also cancels out the first part of the Jesus sentence "Jesus is coming,..." and we should not expect another return of Him?

The Sadducees and the Pharisees, the religious establishment of Jesus' and John's day, thought they had prophecy figured out. Did they? ABSOLUTELY NOT! This will happen again in our day. The religious establishment of our day think they have prophecy all figured out. BUT THEY DO NOT! Wisdom is neither old or new but everlasting. Surely you have heard it spoken:

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NKJV) - "That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun."

Do the Jews, those that have not accepted Jesus (Joshua/Yeshua/Yehoshua) YET, read and/or accept New Testament? NO! Yet there are prophecies, including unfulfilled ones, that overlap in the Old Testament and New Testament. For example, when the nation (and city) that is end-time Babylon is utterly destroyed, I can point to Revelation 17-18 and Jeremiah 50-51, at a minimum, to say, "This day this prophecy has been fulfilled." Since the Jews don't follow the New Testament, they have only those in the Old Testament to point to.

God still has a great plan for they that rejected His Son, and they will mourn for the One they pierced. The branch which has been broken will be restored and the eyes which have been blinded will be restored for them. Who is them? O'Israel! What day and generation will that be? Our day and generation! The time of the Gentiles is reaching its fullness! Surely you have heard it spoken:

Romans 11:25 (NKJV) - "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

Luke 13:35 (NKJV) - "See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

I ASK YOU, "DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORD "UNTIL"?

un·til as a preposition means "up to the point in time or the event mentioned"

Romans 11:7-10 (NKJV) - "What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.” And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.”

Romans 11:19-32 (NKJV) - "You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted
in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

Now that you have read the Word, I have two questions for you:
How can a blind man say "I can see!" or restore his own sight? HE CAN'T!
How can a broken branch say "I am a tree!" or graft itself back into the tree it was broken from? IT CAN'T!
The one who comes to restore is born of a Gentile!

Indeed, it is not complicated! How do you expect wisdom to knock on your door if you don't invite
her?

John

 

[Rex]

Welcome to the forum JohnnyJ

 

[JohnnyJ]

THE PROPHECY CONCERNING JOSHUA AND ZERUBBABEL AND LITTLE BENJAMIN

ALL PROPHECY MUST BE FULFILLED!

This is made clear in Revelation 22:6 (NKJV) - "Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. 7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” "

May wisdom enter the house that invites her! She does not knock at the door where she is not invited!

NOW TO THE PROPHECY:

The prophecy of Joshua and Zerubbabel leaves many wondering why neither accomplished during their lives what was prophesied of them by the prophets Haggai and Zechariah. Some call it a false prophecy but that cannot be for the Word will not return void. NEVER! What has not been fulfilled yet will eventually be fulfilled. His Word shall not pass away! So the key is to unlock this mystery concerning the prophecy of Joshua and Zerubbabel.

In the Word, names have meaning. So let's look at Joshua's and Zerubbabel's using Wikipedia as a source.

The English name Joshua is a rendering of the Hebrew language “Yehoshua”, meaning “Yahweh is salvation”. “Jesus” is the English of the Greek transliteration of “Yehoshua” via Latin. The closest Greek pronunciation of the Aramaic is “Yeshua”.

If the name Zerubbabel is Hebrew, it may be a contraction of Zərua‘ Bāvel, meaning "the one sown of Babylon", and referring to a child conceived and born in Babylon; or perhaps even, Zərûy Bāvel, meaning, "the winnowed of Babylon", in the sense of being exiled in Babylon. If the name is not Hebrew but Assyrian-Babylonian, it may contract, Zəru Bābel, meaning, "Seed of Babylon", the one conceived in Babylon.

JOSHUA
In Haggai, Joshua is a son of a high priest. Later in Zechariah Joshua is shown as a high priest with filthy garments ("iniquities"). He then is challenged by Satan but the LORD rebukes Satan and reminds him that He has chosen Jerusalem. The LORD then removes Joshua's iniquities ("filthy garments") and gives him rich robes and a turban. Then the LORD tells Joshua that if he will walk in His ways and keep His command that he shall also judge His house and have charge of His courts. Joshua is also told that his companions around him would be symbolic of men to come. Then the LORD said He would bring forth His servant THE BRANCH and will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. Later Joshua is crowned and given a throne as a priest. The crowned Joshua is then shown a man THE BRANCH who would come from far away and will build the temple of the LORD as a sign that the LORD purposed it and will rule on his throne. "And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” Two thrones...High Priest and a king! Now Who do we know that took on the sins of all mankind in one day thus making Him the filthiest man that has ever been for that moment in time and forsaken by the Father but Who conquered death and was then raised by His Father to sit at His right hand and was crowned with glory, majesty, power, and authority as a High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek waiting for restoration of all things and His enemies to be been made His footstool?

SEE! Joshua was symbolic of the first BRANCH who is...OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST! Surely you have heard it spoken:

Hebrews 5:1-11 (NKJV) - "For every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness. Because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was. So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.” As He also says in another
place: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”; who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing."

ZERUBBABEL
So as we can see that the prophecy of Joshua has been fulfilled by the first coming of our Lord Jesus. Now what about Zerubbabel? It is as if the story was put on the "PAUSE" mode waiting for someone to come onto the scene...AND RESTORE ALL THINGS!. Now we must figure out this part of the mystery.

Before we proceed, let me present these questions to ponder:
Why is Zerubbabel in Haggai given such great authority before kingdoms and then it is John in Revelation given such great authority before kingdoms?
Why is Zerubbabel in Zechariah holding a measuring device for the temple and then it is John in Revelation that is holding a measuring device for the temple?
Why is only one name, Zerubbabel, given in Zechariah when it talks of the two olive trees and then only one name, John, given in Revelation when it talks of the two witnesses?
Why isn’t the name Joshua, the high priest, mentioned with Zerubbabel in Zechariah 4 when it is talking about the two olive trees…where did he go?
Why are the two witnesses calling down plagues?
Why is it Zerubbabel that is given great authority to conquer kingdoms and rulers in Haggai 2:20-23 and then in Jeremiah 51:20-24 some unnamed person is chosen and given great authority to conquer kingdoms including Babylon?

In Haggai, the LORD stirs the spirits of Zerubbabel, a government official, along with Joshua and all the remnant of the people from the land of Babylon and they proceed to Jerusalem to build the temple of the LORD. The LORD comforts them with His Spirit and says in Haggai 2:6-9 (NKJV) - “For thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,’ says the Lord of hosts. ‘The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,’ says the Lord of hosts. ‘The glory of this latter temple
shall be greater than the former,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘And in this place I will give peace,’ says the LORD of hosts.”

Now later in Haggai 2, the LORD says something of great significance to Zerubbabel!

Haggai 2:20-23 (NKJV) - "And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying: ‘I will shake heaven and earth. I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms; I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms. I will overthrow the chariots And those who ride in them; The horses and their riders shall come down, Every one by the sword of his brother. ‘In that day,’says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel My servant, the son of Shealtiel,’ says the LORD, ‘and will make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you,’ says the LORDof hosts.”

"IN THAT DAY" and "CHOSEN"? A future event! Where? When? Who?

Where have we heard something similar about someone who is chosen? Let's go to Jeremiah 50 and 51.

Jeremiah 50:44 (NKJV) - "Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplain of the Jordan Against the dwelling place of the strong; But I will make them suddenly run away from her. And who is a chosen man that I may appoint over her? For who is like Me? Who will arraign Me? And who is that shepherd Who will withstand Me?”

The "Me" in Jeremiah 50:44 is referring to God. No where have we heard something similar before?

Exodus 7:1 (NIV) - “Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.”

Jeremiah 51:20-24 (NKJV) - " “You are My battle-ax and weapons of war: For with you I will break the nation in pieces; With you I will destroy kingdoms; With you I will break in pieces the horse and its rider; With you I will break in pieces the chariot and its rider; With you also I will break in pieces man and woman; With you I will break in pieces old and young; With you I will break in pieces the young man and the maiden; With you also I will break in pieces the shepherd and his flock; With you I will break in pieces the farmer and his yoke of oxen; And with you I will break in pieces governors and rulers. “And I will repay Babylon And all the inhabitants of Chaldea For all the evil they have done In Zion in your sight,” says the LORD."

As we learned earlier, the name 'Zerubbabel' refers to a child born in Babylon. What does Jeremiah 50 and 51 talk about? The destruction of end-time Babylon! So, this "chosen man" fulfills the prophecy of Zerubbabel. Now you ask how do I know that this is a future event...YET TO BE FULFILLED.

Back in Zechariah 4, an angel is speaking to Zechariah about the two olive trees but then suddenly talks about Zerubbabel saying that a great mountain will fall before him and that Zerubbabel laid the foundation of the temple and shall finish the temple. Zerubbabel is described as holding a plumb line, a measuring device, in his hand for the temple.

Zechariah 4:8-10 (NKJV) - "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying: “The hands of Zerubbabel Have laid the foundation of this temple; His hands shall also finish it. Then you will know That the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”

Where have we heard something about someone else holding a measuring device for a temple? Let's go to Malachi and Revelation.

Malachi 3:1 (NKJV) - " “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts."

Revelation 11:1-4 (NKJV) - "Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth."

What is the name of the man given a measuring device for the temple? John!

Revelation 22:6-11 (NKJV) - "Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

SEE! Zerubbabel was symbolic of the second BRANCH who is...THE MESSENGER JOHN! The child born in end-time Babylon is the "chosen man" who fulfills the prophecy of Zerubbabel and is a messenger by and for the Lord Jesus. His name is...JOHN!

When John receives his crown from the Lord Jesus and told "Arise!", then he must go forward and proclaim the return of our Lord Jesus Christ and the coming of the Kingdom of God to earth. Those kings who refuse to submit their kingdoms to the coming Kingdom of God and its KING of Kings and LORD of Lords will be considered the enemies of Christ. John and his brother will call down plagues on His enemies and conquer them making them into His footstool!

Revelation 6:1 (NKJV) - "Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer."

Revelation 10:11 (NKJV) - "And he said to me, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.”

NOTE: This is not the antichrist as some falsely preach! White represents righteousness. He doesn't need an arrow for he does not need the weaponry of mankind...only the Father's Spirit. Surely you have heard it spoken:

Zechariah 4:6-7 (NKJV) - "So he answered and said to me: “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ Says the LORD of hosts. ‘Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’

The LORD is speaking to a mountain of great significance and John will know which one. Where is this mountain? Babylon!

Jeremiah 51:24-26 (NKJV) - " “And I will repay Babylon And all the inhabitants of Chaldea For all the evil they have done In Zion in your sight,” says the LORD. “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth,” says the LORD. “And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain. They shall not take from you a stone for a corner Nor a stone for a foundation, But you shall be desolate forever,” says the LORD."

Who is this mountain? Read on!

Read the following four lines from "America the Beautiful" as written by Katharine Lee Bates as she was inspired by the mountain in Colorado Springs in Colorado (where I live) called Pike's Peak:

‘For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America! <-----------------------repeated twice
God shed his grace on thee’

Why is America repeated twice? Where have you heard something similar?

Zechariah 4:6 (NKJV) -
" ‘Who are you, O great mountain?
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!
And he shall bring forth the capstone
With shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’” <-----------------------repeated twice

Isaiah 21:9 (NKJV) -
"And look, here comes a chariot of men with a pair of horsemen!”
Then he answered and said,
“Babylon is fallen, is fallen! <-----------------------repeated twice
And all the carved images of her gods
He has broken to the ground.”

Revelation 18:2 (NKJV) -
"And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!" <-----------------------repeated twice


AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL----->BABYLON THE GREAT!

JOSHUA AND ZERUBBABEL----->THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIS MESSENGER JOHN!

LITTLE BENJAMIN


John, the one who fulfills the prophecy of Zerubbabel, must have the tribe of Benjamin in his genealogy. Why you ask? Let's look at the Word.

Jeremiah 50:44-46 (NKJV) - " “Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplain of the Jordan Against the dwelling place of the strong; But I will make them suddenly run away from her. And who is a chosen man that I may appoint over her? For who is like Me? Who will arraign Me? And who is that shepherd Who will withstand Me?” Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Babylon, And His purposes that He has proposed against the land of the Chaldeans: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He will make their dwelling place desolate with them. At the noise of the taking of Babylon The earth trembles, And the cry is heard among the nations."

Notice what verse 45 says: "Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out." This sounds a lot like what the Lord Jesus spoke of in Matthew and Luke when He spoke of one greater to come after John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:11 (NKJV) - " “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Luke 7:28 (NKJV) - "For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

Little Benjamin, the least of the flock (tribes of Israel), grows up to be a mighty warrior and leader and leads his people back to Jerusalem. For it is written of Benjamin:

Genesis 49:27 (NKJV) - " “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil.” "

Deuteronomy 33:12 (NKJV) - "Of Benjamin he said: “The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by Him, Who shelters him all the day long; And he shall dwell between His shoulders.”

Psalm 68:26-29 (NKJV) - "Bless God in the congregations, The Lord, from the fountain of Israel. There is little Benjamin, their leader, The princes of Judah and their company, The princes of Zebulun and the princes of Naphtali. Your God has commanded your strength; Strengthen, O God, what You have done for us. Because of Your temple at Jerusalem, Kings will bring presents to You."

Also, the eternal covenant made between David from the tribe of Judah and Jonathan (form of Hebrew name John) from the tribe of Benjamin must be kept as they made it before the LORD God of Israel. For it is written of this covenant:

1 Samuel 18:1-4 (NKJV) - "Now when he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. Saul took him that day, and would not let him go home to his father’s house anymore. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan took off the robe that was on him and gave it to David, with his armor, even to his sword and his bow and his belt."

1 Samuel 20:11-16 (NKJV) - "And Jonathan said to David, “Come, let us go out into the field.” So both of them went out into the field. Then Jonathan said to David: “The LORD God of Israel is witness! When I have sounded out my father sometime tomorrow, or the third day, and indeed there is good toward David, and I do not send to you and tell you, may the LORD do so and much more to Jonathan. But if it pleases my father to do you evil, then I will report it to you and send you away, that you may go in safety. And the LORD be with you as He has been with my father. And you shall not only show me the kindness of the LORD while I still
live, that I may not die; but you shall not cut off your kindness from my house forever, no, not when the LORD has cut off every one of the enemies of David from the face of the earth.” So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, “Let the LORD require it at the hand of David’s enemies.”

1 Samuel 20:23 (KKJV) - "And as for the matter which you and I have spoken of, indeed the LORD be between you and me forever.” '

1 Samuel 20:41-42 (NKJV) - "As soon as the lad had gone, David arose from a place toward the south, fell on his face to the ground, and bowed down three times. And they kissed one another; and they wept together, but David more so. Then Jonathan said to David, “Go in peace, since we have both sworn in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘May the LORD be between you and me, and between your descendants and my descendants, forever.’” So he arose and departed, and Jonathan went into the city."

Noticed what is said in 1 Samuel 20, verses 15, 16, and 42 -
15- "but you shall not cut off your kindness from my house forever, no, not when the LORD has cut off every one of the enemies of David from the face of the earth.”
16 - "So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, “Let the LORD require it at the hand of David’s enemies.” "
42 - "Then Jonathan said to David, “Go in peace, since we have both sworn in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘May the LORD be between you and me, and between your descendants and my descendants, forever.’” ..."

And notice what is said in 1 Samuel 20:23 -
23 - "And as for the matter which you and I have spoken of, indeed the LORD be between you and me forever.”

Does this not sound familiar? Read again the prophecy in Deuteronomy 33:12 -
12 - "Of Benjamin he said: “The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by Him, Who shelters him all the day long; And he shall dwell between His shoulders.”

Forever means...FOREVER! And David's enemies will be cut off from the face of the earth and made into his Lord's footstool!

Revelation 22:16 (NKJV) - " “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” "

Indeed, the one who fulfills the prophecy of Zerubbabel shall confirm the covenant. John, descendant from the tribe of Benjamin, THE LEAST OF THE FLOCK, will be the Lord Jesus' messenger and cut His enemies off from the face of the earth and make them into His Lord's footstool!

ALL PROPHECY WILL BE FULFILLED!

Psalm 110 (NKJV) - "The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. The LORD has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath. He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill the places with dead bodies, He shall execute the heads of many countries. He shall drink of the brook by the wayside; Therefore He shall lift up the head."

"Drink of the brook"? Who do we know that did just a thing?

1 Kings 17:5-7 (NKJV) - "So he went and did according to the word of the Lord, for he went and stayed by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan. The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening; and he drank from the brook. And it happened after a while that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land."

ELIJAH! A man named John born of an Elizabeth will have his spirit...AGAIN!

Isaiah 49:1-2 (NKJV) - “Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name. And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has hidden Me.”

THE NAMES
Elizabeth as a girl's name is pronounced “ee-LIZ-a-beth“.
John as a boy's name is pronounced “jahn“.
Elijah as a boy's name is pronounced “ee-LYE-jah“.

THE MATRIX
Eli (first three letters of mother’s Hebrew birth name Elizabeth pronounced “ee-LYE” )
+
Joh (first three letters of son’s Hebrew birth name John pronounced “jah“)
=
Elijah (name of the spirit of the prophet pronounced “ee-LYE-jah“)

JOHN, BORN OF ELIZABETH, IS HIDDEN NO MORE FOR THE LORD JESUS APPEARED TO HIM AND SAID "ARISE!"

I, John, must prophesy!

I announce to the world that the first seal has been broken and I mount to ride. Where do I begin? Judgment begins first at the house of God!

Now I say to the mountain,
"Who are you O great mountain?
Before me you will become a plain!
America! America!
O how you have fallen from God's grace!"

Revelation 22:6-7 (NKJV) - "Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” "

Revelation 22:20-21 (NKJV) - "He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

　
BEHOLD, THE LORD JESUS COMES QUICKLY!


I am not naïve! It is going to take a mighty sign for the Jews to see. The LORD purposed such a thing! Read on.

Zechariah 6 (NKJV):
9 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 10 “Receive the gift from the captives—from Heldai, Tobijah, and Jedaiah, who have come from Babylon—and go the same day and enter the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold, make an elaborate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. 12 Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, saying:
“Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!
From His place He shall branch out,
And He shall build the temple of the LORD;
13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD.
He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule on His throne;
So He shall be a priest on His throne,
And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”’
14 “Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the LORD for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah. 15 Even those from afar shall come and build the temple of the LORD. Then you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.”

Many in Israel are waiting to build the temple, but it is not for them to do. It is for those from far away who will come and build the temple...AFTER THE DESTRUCTION OF BABYLON! John will lead the remnant from Babylon (America) after its destruction and lead them to Jerusalem as a sign that the LORD has purposed it and has sent him. When he arrives, he will be asked who sent him. He will say, "The One who appeared to me and said "Arise!" and showed me the scar on His left hand before my very eyes. He is the One who was pierced for our transgressions. He was crucified but was resurrected by the Father to eternal life. He is alive for I have seen Him. I was sent by the Lord Jesus, the One you called Joshua/Yeshua/Yehoshua. Do you not remember what Rabbi Kaduri said before he passed away?"

Type "Rabbi Kaduri reveals name of Moshiach before he dies" into the Youtube search engine, watch the video, and see the name that was revealed to him.

 

[101G]

2 Angelina, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.

thanks for the topic,
Q.1. What do believer's look for when determining who this Elijah is and do we really have to?
2. Why is it that these latter day believer's think that they are in the spirit of Elijah when John the Baptist did not recognize it of himself John 1:19, 20, 21 but Jesus did? Matthew 11:13-14, Matthew 17:12-13

yes, John knew it too. this is the two witness of revelation chapter 11, as our Lord said, Matthew 11:14 "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come". John the baptist is Elijah in spirit and power, (authority). but not in body, and soul. as for John 1:21 "And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No". notice the answer when they ask "art thou Elisa", he said "I AM not". if one would notice how and who answered them. just follow the context of the scripture. "I AM" is not John the baptist who answered. is this scriptural, Matthew 10:19 "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you". so when they asked John "Art thou", the answer "I AM" not. "that prophet", he, John said no.
again the two witness are John the baptist, and our Lord Jesus the Christ. I must agree with BiggAndyy on this one, "Elijah to come was John the Baptist". and our Lord, Jesus the Christ is the Faithful witness. witness here is martyr.

Q1. so Look for the Lord Jesus. he have already witness, and that witness is in us. for he "SAVES", and he is "BAPTIZING WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT", which John witness to. John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost". question did not John a witness to the truth. John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world".

if one would notice, John was "SENT FROM" from God, not sent "by" God, but "FROM" God. here is the spirit of Elijah "FROM" God. just as our Lord and Saviour is "FROM" God.

there is much more, but I hope this helped.

Love and Peace

101G