Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[justbyfaith]

I didn’t say it, the Christ did. Take it up with Him.

So you are in agreement with those statements?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have heard it said that if you have doubt about whether you were predestined, receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour; and you will find that you were predestined.

But certain Calvinists that I have spoken this to in the past have rejected this idea.

So there are certain things in Calvinism that are contrary to the latter part of John 6:37.

“ALL the Father gives me”...the Christ lays the foundation for those who come to Him, He will never cast aside.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you are in agreement with those statements?

What statements?

 

[justbyfaith]

What statements?

So, you're saying that if anyone comes to Christ it is because the Father gave them to Christ....

And therefore it is not true that they would be rejected over His not choosing them from eternity past.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, you're saying that if anyone comes to Christ it is because the Father gave them to Christ....

Again, I did not say this, the Christ did.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.[John 6:37]

If God had given everyone to the Christ, then everyone would come to Him. If everyone comes to Him, then everyone is saved.

And therefore it is not true that they would be rejected over His not choosing them from eternity past.

You are looking at election as if it is a bad thing. You think fallen man deserves to be called by God. You scoff at the notion that fallen man hates Him, and yet, in His electing love, set His love upon a bunch of ppl that hated His guts. If God had not elected some, then none would be saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, I did not say this, the Christ did.

Again, do you agree with what the Christ spoke?

You are looking at election as if it is a bad thing. You think fallen man deserves to be called by God. You scoff at the notion that fallen man hates Him, and yet, in His electing love, set His love upon a bunch of ppl that hated His guts. If God had not elected some, then none would be saved.

It is besides the point. The fact is, that Christ will reject no one; and therefore if anyone receives Him, you can be sure that the Lord elected them. God is not going to reject anyone that truly receives Him. And therefore if anyone receives Him, that supersedes any arbitrary choice on the part of God to condemn that person from eternity past. Because if anyone comes to Him, He will in no wise cast them out.

And therefore, if the Lord chose not to elect a person; but that person received Him and came to Him: He would in no wise cast them out.

I am not preaching to you sound doctrine per se, but what might become sound doctrine in your thinking (Titus 2:1).

 

[justbyfaith]

You are looking at election as if it is a bad thing.

If you had any kind of concern for the non-elect, you would also see it as a bad thing; because it is a bad thing for the non-elect.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you are in agreement with those statements?

Yes! "All the Father gives Me" qualifies those who come to Him.

It is besides the point. The fact is, that Christ will reject no one; and therefore if anyone receives Him, you can be sure that the Lord elected them. God is not going to reject anyone that truly receives Him. And therefore if anyone receives Him, that supersedes any arbitrary choice on the part of God to condemn that person from eternity past. Because if anyone comes to Him, He will in no wise cast them out.

And therefore, if the Lord chose not to elect a person; but that person received Him and came to Him: He would in no wise cast them out.

I am not preaching to you sound doctrine per se, but what might become sound doctrine in your thinking (Titus 2:1).

I agree the Christ will reject no one who comes to Him, even He averred it. But those who come to Him are drawn to Him, seeing the Father gave those He is drawing to Him from before the foundation of the world.

You said this "And therefore, if the Lord chose not to elect a person; but that person received Him and came to Him: He would in no wise cast them out." This doesn't make a lick of sense. The non-elect don't want Him and will never choose to seek Him. What you are saying is if they come w/o God choosing Him and they are saved, they are saved w/o God choosing them. You're theology is all over the place.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If you had any kind of concern for the non-elect, you would also see it as a bad thing; because it is a bad thing for the non-elect.

But you or I either one do not know who the elect and non-elect are, so we witness to all ppl.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The fact is, that Christ will reject no one; and therefore if anyone receives Him, you can be sure that the Lord elected them.

Exactly! John 1:13 & Romans 9:16 affirm this.

God is not going to reject anyone that truly receives Him.

Exactly! John 1:13 & Romans 9:16 affirm this.

And therefore if anyone receives Him, that supersedes any arbitrary choice on the part of God to condemn that person from eternity past.

And here is where you went off the road and over the cliff in your theology. First off, God never arbitrarily does anything. He chose who He chose because He loved them, not because they met any standard, any condition. That is why its called unconditional election. Nothing supersedes this. Nothing.

And therefore, if the Lord chose not to elect a person; but that person received Him and came to Him: He would in no wise cast them out.

Faulty view of election here. You are saying ppl can be saved by electing themselves, and by electing themselves, God then has to save them because they elected themselves.

I am not preaching to you sound doctrine per se,

No truer words have you ever typed. Amen!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

The fact is, that Christ will reject no one;

Here's another thing you posted that shows you do not know our position. If someone was to truly approach the Christ seeking Him for salvation and He turned them away, then no one needs to worship Him. That would make Him cruel to turn someone away who was truly desirous of being saved. You think we believe He does this, when in fact, that can NOT be further from the truth. He does not set back and wait for ppl to come to Him, He goes after them. He does this via His gospel. That is why we are to proclaim it to everyone we meet.

The fact that God has not elected everyone does not mean He has rejected them. Election deals with saving those the Father chose from fallen humanity, gave them and their sins to His Son, who died to atone for their sins. He also rose for their justification.[Romans 4:25] What God has done was choosing to save a # of wicked, God-hating ppl, that no one can #. He did this based on nothing else than Himself. He did not see anything in the elect that was missing in the non-elect, either.

As Paul wrote I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.[Romans 11:1-2a] Here foreknew means to appoint, fore-ordain. God has not foreknown everyone w/o exception. He knows everyone via omniscience, but He foreknows His elect via election.

 

[justbyfaith]

But you or I either one do not know who the elect and non-elect are, so we witness to all ppl.

So you're saying that you do not know whether or not you are one of the elect or non-elect?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you're saying that you do not know whether or not you are one of the elect or non-elect?

No. We don't know who the elect and non-elect are that we come into contact with.

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems to me that if the elect are elected unconditionally, that there is no basis but the choice of the Lord for someone to be of the non-elect.

Is this a God that is truly good? These people are headed to the lake of fire.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It seems to me that if the elect are elected unconditionally, that there is no basis but the choice of the Lord for someone to be of the non-elect.

Is this a God that is truly good?

There is no seems to this, He has unconditionally elected ppl. God justly left the non-elect in their fallen state. He did them no injustice by leaving them in their already condemned state.

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be![Romans 9:14]

 

[Preacher4Truth]

So...God is deemed good only if he let's people choose themselves into heaven (which doesn't happen!)

And God's goodness is called into question since he elects whom he wills to save, without condition.

Got it!

 

[Dave L]

I am going to cut to the chase, because in all reality it does not matter if you believe what you believe, as long as it doesn't keep you out of the kingdom; if your belief gives you an excuse to never receive Christ as your Saviour and Lord, if it tells you that it is not necessary to call upon the name of the Lord; and if you have never called upon the name of the Lord: if your belief tells you that you are saved apart from placing your faith in Jesus Christ in the sense of putting the key to the lock of the door and opening it to enter into becoming a recipient of true grace of salvation; then know that your faith in Calvinism is preventing you from being saved and entering the kingdom: and if you are saved but are a preacher of Calvinism, then know that your preaching will keep people out of the kingdom, because they will believe that they are not responsible to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour; because of the doctrine that they can have grace apart from that (since, in Calvinism, grace comes before faith, a man can be saved by grace apart from faith; and therefore faith isn't necessary for salvation by implication). And if you are keeping people out of the kingdom, how in the justice of the Lord will you be able to enter into the kingdom yourselves?

But I am going to give the Calvinist an invitation here to repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ, entering the door using the key; and if they choose not to enter in because they believe in Calvinism, then I suggest that the Lord foreordained that they would be condemned over not rejecting Calvinism when it mattered most to their salvation.

But here is the invitation: the Lord Jesus stands at the door and knocks on the door of your heart; He says to you that if you will hear His voice and open the door, He will come in to you and sup with you and you with Him: He is offering to come into your life and live His life in you and through you so that you can be morally unashamed: it will be Christ in you, the hope of glory if you accept the call and receive Him into your heart today. He will also make you a new creature in Him and you will be regenerated and renewed, and the Lord will take out of you the heart of stone and replace it with an heart of flesh.

Pray the prayer below (out loud) to receive Jesus as your Lord and Saviour:

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I call upon Your name for salvation. I ask You to come into my heart and be my Lord and Saviour. Show me who You are. Fill me with the Holy Ghost. Make me into a new creature in You. Save my soul from sin and set me free from the bondage of slavery to myself; and cause me to live according to Your love as I put my trust in You. Please wash me in Your blood and forgive me of all of my sin(s). I receive and confess You as my Saviour and Lord; and I believe that You are risen from the dead by the power of God. In Your holy and precious Name. Amen.

If you prayed that, the next step is for you to receive Acts 2:38 baptism so you can receive the Holy Ghost and absolute assurance of salvation.

Now if there are no takers among the Calvinists, I will suppose that it is because that in their total depravity they are opposed to the things of God and have utter inability to take the steps needed in order to enter into the kingdom. But if anyone actually takes the step of praying that and taking the subsequent steps to receive Acts 2:38 salvation, then I will know that it is a miracle of the Lord; that God truly reached out to them and bestowed upon them grace to receive salvation through faith and the obedience required to receive the Holy Ghost (see Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

In the end, you trust in your obedience (works) to save you. The Calvinist abandons all of his effort, will, and works, and trusts in Christ alone to save him.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is no seems to this, He has unconditionally elected ppl. God justly left the non-elect in their fallen state. He did them no injustice by leaving them in their already condemned state.

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be![Romans 9:14]

I would say that because there is no injustice with the Lord, that He would not do anything that we, in our God-given consciences, would deem to be unjust.

And since leaving certain people to be put in the lake of fire (by His choice) is something that we would deem to be unjust, I conclude that He did not do this.

 

[justbyfaith]

In the end, you trust in your obedience (works) to save you. The Calvinist abandons all of his effort, will, and works, and trusts in Christ alone to save him.

Therefore, the Calvinist will not take advantage of the invitation that the Lord gives us in the holy scripture:

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[justbyfaith]

So...God is deemed good only if he let's people choose themselves into heaven (which doesn't happen!)

And God's goodness is called into question since he elects whom he wills to save, without condition.

Got it!

Actually, it is only the god of your imagination whose goodness is called into question (and Calvin's imagination).