Wineskins? And Why Old and New do not Mix.

[MatthewG]

I can’t obey the two greatest commandments, personally. I believe Jesus helps us achieve them. Everyone has their own thoughts about these things and it’s fine. I believe they are only achieved by the spirit of Christ, therefore all credit to Yeshua.

 

[Soyeong]

I can’t obey the two greatest commandments, personally. I believe Jesus helps us achieve them. Everyone has their own thoughts about these things and it’s fine. I believe they are only achieved by the spirit of Christ, therefore all credit to Yeshua.

God’s law was never given as something that we should obey on our own apart from God.

 

[MatthewG]

I’m thankful for Yeshua, and he was the only one to fulfill Gods law, by loving his Father and loving his neighbor as himself. Anyone who believes they can follow Gods law (while they are meaningful and insightful) in all ways but fail in any, one time, they are guilty of failing all of it. This is why old wine and new wine are different. It was only the blood of Yeshua who achieved fulfilling them.

 

[Soyeong]

I’m thankful for Yeshua, and he was the only one to fulfill Gods law, by loving his Father and loving his neighbor as himself. Anyone who believes they can follow Gods law (while they are meaningful and insightful) in all ways but fail in any, one time, they are guilty of failing all of it. This is why old wine and new wine are different. It was only the blood of Yeshua who achieved fulfilling them.

According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so again it refers to correctly obeying it as it should be, moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done. Likewise, Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which again referring to correctly obeying it as should be and to something that countless people have done. Moreover, there is much discussion in other Jewish writings about how to fulfill the law in the sense of sense of correctly meeting our obligation to it. Nowhere does the Bible say anything about Jesus fulfilling the law for us so that we don't have do, but rather he fulfilled it so that we would have an example to follow.

In Romans 10:5-8, it refers to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey that that obedience to it brings life and blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! If someone breaks one of God's laws and becomes a lawbreaker, then they need to repent and to return to obedience, which is precisely what James was encouraging them to do. God's law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so someone can continue to be a doer of the law even after they have sinned. You're avoiding the issue that you are anachronistically inserting things back into the parable that had nothing to do with addressing the question that Jesus was answering.

 

[Verily]

I can’t obey the two greatest commandments, personally. I believe Jesus helps us achieve them. Everyone has their own thoughts about these things and it’s fine. I believe they are only achieved by the spirit of Christ, therefore all credit to Yeshua.

I believe that is the circumcision of Christ done in the heart by the Spirit which IS the "love of" God shed abroad in our hearts, even the same which works within us to will and to do his good pleasure.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Which is the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Rom 5:5

 

[MatthewG]

To me there is nothing wrong with the original post, Soy. If you don’t like the reasons I give that’s fine too. If you believe you can obey all of Gods law, concerning the Old Testament by all means have at it. Cause I’m not sure what you are trying to say. It’s sort of a mix of old and new wine, of course that is just my opinion. Your message is confusing, to me.

James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

‭‭
I do thank you for sharing and posting, Soy.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for posting and sharing Verily.

 

[MatthewG]

There are people out there still today that believe they can live by the standards of the law of Moses when it was never written to them to begin with. Sure there is benefit in learning about them, but to try to strive and live so perfectly... it's a failure in the eyes of God, especially when the nation of Israel itself could never lock and step, they always failed in some way. That was why Yeshua was sent. By the time Yeshua showed up, they were worshipping the Law and profiting from people's sins, by selling sacrifices and mocking God.


If people want to strive to do so, by all means, good luck. Just remember if you fail in any part of the Law of Moses itself, you are guilty of having broken all of it. So there is not picking and choosing when it comes to what you wanna try to strive to do, because its only Yeshua whom makes you right with God, so look to him, and his resurrection.

 

[Soyeong]

To me there is nothing wrong with the original post, Soy. If you don’t like the reasons I give that’s fine too.
If you believe you can obey all of Gods law, concerning the Old Testament by all means have at it. Cause I’m not sure what you are trying to say. It’s sort of a mix of old and new wine, of course that is just my opinion. Your message is confusing, to me.


‭‭
I do thank you for sharing and posting, Soy.

Please quote what you find confusing so that I can clarify it.

Luke 5:33 And they said to him, “The disciples of John fast often and offer prayers, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours eat and drink.”

Jesus gave the parable of the wineskins to address the above question, so the correct understanding of it is relevant to addressing the question. The people asking the question had no idea about the death or resurrection of Jesus, nor is that relevant to their question, so you are interpreting the parable with knowledge of events that hadn't happened yet while ignoring the context in which it was given.

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by committing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late and he was not trying to discourage them from thinking that they can obey God's law as you are doing, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to obey God's law ore consistently.

There are people out there still today that believe they can live by the standards of the law of Moses when it was never written to them to begin with. Sure there is benefit in learning about them, but to try to strive and live so perfectly... it's a failure in the eyes of God, especially when the nation of Israel itself could never lock and step, they always failed in some way. That was why Yeshua was sent. By the time Yeshua showed up, they were worshipping the Law and profiting from people's sins, by selling sacrifices and mocking God.


If people want to strive to do so, by all means, good luck. Just remember if you fail in any part of the Law of Moses itself, you are guilty of having broken all of it. So there is not picking and choosing when it comes to what you wanna try to strive to do, because its only Yeshua whom makes you right with God, so look to him, and his resurrection.

Do you believe that nothing is impossible with God...except obeying Him?

Again in Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep. God's law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it did not require us to have perfect obedience. While God criticized the Israelites for idolatry or for neglecting to take care of the poor, the orphan, and the widow, He never criticized them for failing to have perfect obedience. If we fail at any part of the Law of Moses and become guilty of being a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and to return to obedience, which is again what James was encouraging them to do.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem, us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to look at him and his resurrection (Acts 21:20).

 

[MatthewG]

Please quote what you find confusing so that I can clarify it.

Luke 5:33 And they said to him, “The disciples of John fast often and offer prayers, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours eat and drink.”

Jesus gave the parable of the wineskins to address the above question, so the correct understanding of it is relevant to addressing the question. The people asking the question had no idea about the death or resurrection of Jesus, nor is that relevant to their question, so you are interpreting the parable with knowledge of events that hadn't happened yet while ignoring the context in which it was given.

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by committing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late and he was not trying to discourage them from thinking that they can obey God's law as you are doing, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to obey God's law ore consistently.


Do you believe that nothing is impossible with God...except obeying Him?

Again in Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep. God's law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it did not require us to have perfect obedience. While God criticized the Israelites for idolatry or for neglecting to take care of the poor, the orphan, and the widow, He never criticized them for failing to have perfect obedience. If we fail at any part of the Law of Moses and become guilty of being a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and to return to obedience, which is again what James was encouraging them to do.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem, us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to look at him and his resurrection (Acts 21:20).

Here is a question, on what terms do you find that you can address the bible as though it is written to you personally?

I've answered already why old wineskins and new wine don't mix. Do you disagree with what has already been stated?

I simply have to go through this fairly quickly.

 

[MatthewG]

People in Jesus' day heard the sayings of Christ, and then after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Apostles who were told to go around to Jerusalem and cities around it, did so preaching the same things that he did... and in that time they had the Holy Spirit to go by. They also had the Old Testament, just as Jesus did then in his time which he stated concerning something "this scripture is fulfilled before you today." Jesus said while he was living "you search the scriptures (meaning the old testament) and they speak of himself." Jesus fulfilled the Law, and the prophets. By obeying the most important commadment Love God with all your heart, your mind, and your strength and the second was equally important, to love your neighbor as yourself."

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

I can't do what Jesus did. It's only him that did it, so therefore I trust him in having done everything none of us ever could.

 

[Soyeong]

Here is a question, on what terms do you find that you can address the bible as though it is written to you personally?

I didn't suggest that.

I've answered already why old wineskins and new wine don't mix. Do you disagree with what has already been stated?

I simply have to go through this fairly quickly.

I agree that they don't mix, though I disagree that they refer to God's covenants or to the resurrection.

 

[MatthewG]

I didn't suggest that.


I agree that they don't mix, though I disagree that they refer to God's covenants or to the resurrection.

Okay, is your point that we must obey the Torah or should follow Christ? Please just be direct and honest in your response because I find the Law to be good but I don’t have to live my life by it; and while if you believe you can or something by all means go for it, I just want to get to the point of whatever it is you wanna say.

Because in the end, I believe this.

“In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭19‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I believe personally that the Torah only leads to Christ Jesus whom fulfilled the Torah, by fulfilling the commandments, and his death, burial and resurrection brought forth the new covenant which is based on better promises.

““Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22‬:‭36‬-‭40‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The writer of Hebrews also writes.

“But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭11‬-‭15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Soyeong]

Okay, is your point that we must obey the Torah or should follow Christ? Please just be direct and honest in your response because I find the Law to be good but I don’t have to live my life by it; and while if you believe you can or something by all means go for it, I just want to get to the point of whatever it is you wanna say.

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example, so it is contradictory to choose between following Christ or following what he taught. In other words, God's word is His instructions for how to follow God's word made flesh. God is sovereign, so we are obligated to obey His law.

“In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭19‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

In Matthew 27:37, the nailed to Christ's cross a handwritten ordinance that announced the charge that was against him that he was the King of the Jews. This fits perfectly with the concept of the charges that were against us being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with nailing any laws to the cross.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians as promoting human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, which means that they were being judged by pagans because they were celebrating God's feast and that Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone prevent them from obeying God. Those promoting asceticism and severity to the body would be judging people for celebrating feasts, not for refraining from celebrating them.

I believe personally that the Torah only leads to Christ Jesus whom fulfilled the Torah, by fulfilling the commandments, and his death, burial and resurrection brought forth the new covenant which is based on better promises.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's word leads us to God's word made flesh because it is His instructions for how to know him. Jesus fulfilled the Torah by spending his ministry teaching how to correctly obey it by word and by example. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts.

“But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭11‬-‭15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

A priesthood led by God's word made flesh should be considered to be in accordance with God's word rather than rejecting it.

 

[MatthewG]

So what is your point @Soyeong?

Is this it?

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example, so it is contradictory to choose between following Christ or following what he taught. In other words, God's word is His instructions for how to follow God's word made flesh. God is sovereign, so we are obligated to obey His law.

Nah, I don’t think so. Apparently you must believe you have to follow the Torah, and not Jesus I guess.

I disagree, Jesus said to follow him, not the Torah.

“Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19‬:‭21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The Torah he taught them showed it spoke of Him. Not in obeying everything in it, because people cant. Thats why Jesus was the “Walking Torah.” He walked and lived the commandments of God loving him first and loving others as himself.



@Soyeong I simply just don’t believe like you do and that is okay. I don’t down you or anything man, hope the best for you but I don’t subscribe to what you are putting out there personally. Keep Faith and look to Jesus who has done everything we never could do, and was raised from the dead.


A thread of topic: You can’t obey the Torah fully.

 

[Soyeong]

So what is your point @Soyeong?

You are blatantly taking the parable of the wineskins out of context.

Is this it?


Nah, I don’t think so. Apparently you must believe you have to follow the Torah, and not Jesus I guess.

I disagree, Jesus said to follow him, not the Torah.

Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and the way to follow him is by following his example, not by refusing to follow his example.

The Torah he taught them showed it spoke of Him. Not in obeying everything in it, because people cant. Thats why Jesus was the “Walking Torah.” He walked and lived the commandments of God loving him first and loving others as himself.

If you want to deny the truth of what Romans 10:5-8 says is the word of faith that we proclaim, then you have that choice, but believe it. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Torah as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so he expressed his love for God and his neighbor by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it.

@Soyeong I simply just don’t believe like you do and that is okay. I don’t down you or anything man, hope the best for you but I don’t subscribe to what you are putting out there personally. Keep Faith and look to Jesus who has done everything we never could do, and was raised from the dead.


A thread of topic: You can’t obey the Torah fully.

The way to look to Jesus is by following his example, not by refusing to follow him.

 

[MatthewG]

Okay. Thank you for sharing what your thoughts are on the matter. While you may believe differently than I do, I’ll be straight up and tell you I don’t follow the Torah. But I look to Jesus and his death, burial and resurrection, @Soyeong. I don’t think there is nothing left to really converse anymore. You’ve stated how you seee it and that’s fine with me, you have the freedom and liberty. And may God bless you in your endeavors cause I simply don’t got anything more to say about it. All I can say about the Torah itself is it’s good, spiritual. It leads people to believe on the Lord Jesus.

 

[MatthewG]

Romans 9-11 deals with Israel, in that day and age the thing is “not all of Israel and was Israel.” Because some people where founded faithful circumcised from the heart and give the spirit while the other claimed they was right with God because they were of Abraham.