Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

[Alethos]

Truth,

I have a question for you.. If the devil is nothing but the sin that is already inside of us, then what exactly tempted Jesus in the wilderness?

Joshua David

At last someone who can ask a sensible question.

Firstly do you understand the followings scriptures?

Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are" (Heb 4:15),
"every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (James 1:14).
sin and temptation come "from within, out of the heart of man" (Mark 7:21).


So how can Jesus be tempted by the "devil" when its our own lusts or evil desires which are the source of temptation? Why does Jesus require a supernatual being to encourage sin when he is not the source? Flesh and Blood is the source hence he was tempted in all points like we are?

I really need to see you understand the above verses...I need some comprehension unlike Ducky who quoted scriptures without expounding an understanding. And he didnt quote them in context. All the above verse are to do with the source of sin!

Alethos

 

[jiggyfly]

But wasn't Jesus without sin?

 

[Joshua David]

[font="tahoma][size="2"]At last someone who can ask a sensible question.

Firstly do you understand the followings scriptures?

Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are" (Heb 4:15),
"every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (James 1:14).
sin and temptation come "from within, out of the heart of man" (Mark 7:21).


So how can Jesus be tempted by the "devil" when its our own lusts or evil desires which are the source of temptation? Why does Jesus require a supernatual being to encourage sin when he is not the source? Flesh and Blood is the source hence he was tempted in all points like we are?

I really need to see you understand the above verses...I need some comprehension unlike Ducky who quoted scriptures without expounding an understanding. And he didnt quote them in context. All the above verse are to do with the source of sin!

Alethos[/size][/font]

Honestly, I really need you to answer the question. You have shown an arrogance that is unbecoming of a Christian. When you present your argument, and someone presents a scripture that seems to contradict your premise, and your only response is that he doesn't understand scripture then it shows extreme weakness of your argument, as well as puffed up pride.

The strength of a person's argument is based not only on how well he presents his argument, which you do a very good job with, by the way, but also on how he defends his argument, which in your case so far is extemely lacking. Most people can present a good argument,

For even the devil quoted scripture to Jesus in his temptation

Which leads me back to my question, you know.. the one you haven't answered yet.

But getting to your points, yes I know that man is truly wicked. And even the person claiming, "The devil made me do it" is usually only consumed by his own lusts. I also know that Jesus was truly a man. He hungered, he hurt, he bled, and he probably had very human desires that he overcame with an iron will. For instance, Jesus did not want to die on the cross. He was scared. He wanted the cup to pass him, but that doesn't mean that he sinned. It is not the wanting that is the sin, but allowing that want to turn you from the path that God has laid down for you. Jesus said, "Not my will, but your will be done." Therefore, even though he had the desire, he did not sin.

Was that what you were looking for?

Joshua David

 

[Duckybill]

Those who don't believe the devil exists have been deceived by the devil.

1 Timothy 5:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]For some have already turned aside after Satan.

 

[Alethos]

Those who don't believe the devil exists have been deceived by the devil.

1 Timothy 5:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]For some have already turned aside after Satan.

jiggyfly - yes he was without sin but was he tempted in all points as we are?

Ducky - your use of scripture is very poor, I have 8 year old sunday school students who understand these scriptures and are better apt to expound them, happy for you to contribute if you have ears to hear. You dont know what the word carnal means??? you dont understand the nature of man...you have much to learn.

 

[Fire-7]

Hell is all perception. It is simply a place for the unredeemed to go to so that they will not have to spend eternity in the presence of a Holy God. If a redeemed person were in Hell, they would know the presence of God and feel fine. The unredeemed are separated from God - wherever they are - Hell is going to be the place they go to together to be separated from Him - physically. All the descriptions of Hell in the NT are real for the unredeemed.

Also, think of Hell as a place for the sick - perhaps a Civil War field hospital (I am thinking of a terrible place) - people feared the hospital more than the battle field in the Civil War because the fatalities from infection were much more numerous than combat. Hell will be a place for the lesser good or diseased - folks who are incapable of knowing God because of their lesser choices (sins) on Earth. The unforgivable sin is the rejection of the justification/sanctification of the HS (blasphemy).

When you think of sin as a sickness - a sickness that Christ has the cure for, but many refuse to accept it - it makes more sense. Many people are going to be mad about this analogy because it looks like I am side-stepping guilt - if you are one of these people - think of sin as alcoholism or some addiction - fatal / disease / self-imposed / curable / involves character flaws.

OK everyone talks about "accepting Christ" and "rejecting Christ", but HOW do you accept Christ???? That is the question. Is it just saying some words? Is it just believing in your heart (remember, deaf mute people can't confess with their mouth). If it is believing in your heart, then how do you know for sure you've really believed in your heart? because the "heart" is so subjective. What then does this say about people who are "false converts" or "reprobates"? This goes back to the controversial issue of eternal security, and whether it's "conditional" or "unconditional (once-saved-always-saved).

 

[Joshua David]

jiggyfly - yes he was without sin but was he tempted in all points as we are?

Ducky - your use of scripture is very poor, I have 8 year old sunday school students who understand these scriptures and are better apt to expound them, happy for you to contribute if you have ears to hear. You dont know what the word carnal means??? you dont understand the nature of man...you have much to learn.

Truth,

You are being mean, condensending, and belittling. Why don't you concentrate on presenting your argument, and defending your statement and leave out all the personally statements. Concentrate on the subject not on the people.

Thank you.

Joshua David

 

[Alethos]

Those who don't believe the devil exists have been deceived by the devil.

1 Timothy 5:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]For some have already turned aside after Satan.

Ducky, one last time its 1:15 am here in Melbourne well past my bedtime.

You have quoted 1 Tim 5:15.

Do you understand the context of these verses? Do you understand the wisdom of Paul’s advice to young Timothy? I question you do.

It is easily discernible if you read the verses what the apostle means.

1Ti 5:13 Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.

1Ti 5:14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.

In other words their ears were being turned from the truth and turned unto fables. The were using their carnal mind and falling away.

Now if you cannot see this lesson you Ducky are in a world of trouble.

If anything tonight please learn to read your bible verses in context.

Pauls not saying these younger women and widows will be handed over to a supernatural being. He’s talking about their minds being centred on righteousness and not gossip. This wisdom is lost on you because you prefer to see devils.

Alethos

Truth,

You are being mean, condensending, and belittling. Why don't you concentrate on presenting your argument, and defending your statement and leave out all the personally statements. Concentrate on the subject not on the people.

Thank you.

Joshua David

Joshua you are right, maybe you can assist him with not just quoting single verses without showing some understanding of their context.
Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky - your use of scripture is very poor, I have 8 year old sunday school students who understand these scriptures and are better apt to expound them, happy for you to contribute if you have ears to hear. You dont know what the word carnal means??? you dont understand the nature of man...you have much to learn.

What you mean is that Scripture doesn't fit your doctrine. Satan is the "god of this age".

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (NKJV)
[sup]3 [/sup]But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [sup]4 [/sup]whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Satan sends his ministers to tell us that he doesn't exist.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

 

[Alethos]

Honestly, I really need you to answer the question. You have shown an arrogance that is unbecoming of a Christian. When you present your argument, and someone presents a scripture that seems to contradict your premise, and your only response is that he doesn't understand scripture then it shows extreme weakness of your argument, as well as puffed up pride.

The strength of a person's argument is based not only on how well he presents his argument, which you do a very good job with, by the way, but also on how he defends his argument, which in your case so far is extemely lacking. Most people can present a good argument,

For even the devil quoted scripture to Jesus in his temptation

Which leads me back to my question, you know.. the one you haven't answered yet.

But getting to your points, yes I know that man is truly wicked. And even the person claiming, "The devil made me do it" is usually only consumed by his own lusts. I also know that Jesus was truly a man. He hungered, he hurt, he bled, and he probably had very human desires that he overcame with an iron will. For instance, Jesus did not want to die on the cross. He was scared. He wanted the cup to pass him, but that doesn't mean that he sinned. It is not the wanting that is the sin, but allowing that want to turn you from the path that God has laid down for you. Jesus said, "Not my will, but your will be done." Therefore, even though he had the desire, he did not sin.

Was that what you were looking for?

Joshua David

Joshua thank you for interceeding. My passion mixed with some frustration doesnt produce patience. I would like respond to your thoughts after some sleep.

Good night

Alethos

 

[Joshua David]

Joshua you are right, maybe you can assist him with not just quoting single verses without showing some understanding of their context.
Alethos

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with him quoting a single verse. Since he is responding to a statement that you made, and since the verse that he quoted seems to conflict with your stated premise, I see it that it is your responsibility to defend your statement. I understand the context that he is using, I do not understand the context that you are using.. You are claiming that he is just quoting single verses without showing some understanding of the context, but that is exactly what you are doing as well, in response to my questions. You claim that he isn't addressing the points that you bring up, just giving a scripture or two, I say that you aren't addressing the questions that I brought up.

Instead of insulting Him, why don't you explain how your premise is congruent with the scripture that he presents, in other words, defend the statement that you made. The common understanding of the scripture that he quoted, is that the devil exists. Now I do not have a problem with you believing differently. I really don't. But don't come on here and make a statement like that, and then insult other posters who posts scriptures that seem to contradict your statements. If you think that the their context is wrong, then explain why you think their context is wrong. If you believe that they are taking the scripture out of context, then explain your understanding of that scripture. All you have done so far is offer up a few verses, ( which is exactly what you are accusing him of doing) along with some insults, which doesn't bring glory to God at all.

Maybe you are just tired, you did mention that it is like one in the morning where you are, and if that is all it is, I am sure that when you are refreshed, it will get better. I know that when I get tired, I get crabby.. My wife would definitely give a big "AMEN" to that one.

But I do want to thank you for your passion, anybody that will stay up past one a.m. just to talk about God is someone that I am proud to call a brother.

Joshua David

 

[Foreigner]

That is one of the most frequent things I have noticed on this board....If a Christian can't understand how or why God would do something, then it is perfectly fine to call it into question: "The God I know would never...." or "My God is a loving God. A loving God would never..."


The simple facts is that hell is real and those who die in their sin are going to go there...forever.



When Jesus walked the earth as a man he spoke more about the dangers of hell than the wonders of heaven.


Why do you think that is?


Seems like a rather strange thing to do if hell is not real or - as some here would have you believe - is only temporary.


"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" - Matt 25:41

-- Note, Christ doesn't say "for now" or "for a little while" or "until you are purified."

So God says people are going to hell and he doesn't even hint at a post-hell reprieve.

But your God would never do that? Time to get to know your God a little better then.

 

[Alethos]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with him quoting a single verse. Since he is responding to a statement that you made, and since the verse that he quoted seems to conflict with your stated premise, I see it that it is your responsibility to defend your statement. I understand the context that he is using, I do not understand the context that you are using.. You are claiming that he is just quoting single verses without showing some understanding of the context, but that is exactly what you are doing as well, in response to my questions. You claim that he isn't addressing the points that you bring up, just giving a scripture or two, I say that you aren't addressing the questions that I brought up.

Instead of insulting Him, why don't you explain how your premise is congruent with the scripture that he presents, in other words, defend the statement that you made. The common understanding of the scripture that he quoted, is that the devil exists. Now I do not have a problem with you believing differently. I really don't. But don't come on here and make a statement like that, and then insult other posters who posts scriptures that seem to contradict your statements. If you think that the their context is wrong, then explain why you think their context is wrong. If you believe that they are taking the scripture out of context, then explain your understanding of that scripture. All you have done so far is offer up a few verses, ( which is exactly what you are accusing him of doing) along with some insults, which doesn't bring glory to God at all.

Maybe you are just tired, you did mention that it is like one in the morning where you are, and if that is all it is, I am sure that when you are refreshed, it will get better. I know that when I get tired, I get crabby.. My wife would definitely give a big "AMEN" to that one.

But I do want to thank you for your passion, anybody that will stay up past one a.m. just to talk about God is someone that I am proud to call a brother.

Joshua David

Yes started out well....ended badly.

Sorry Ducky.

 

[Alethos]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with him quoting a single verse. Since he is responding to a statement that you made, and since the verse that he quoted seems to conflict with your stated premise, I see it that it is your responsibility to defend your statement. I understand the context that he is using, I do not understand the context that you are using.. You are claiming that he is just quoting single verses without showing some understanding of the context, but that is exactly what you are doing as well, in response to my questions. You claim that he isn't addressing the points that you bring up, just giving a scripture or two, I say that you aren't addressing the questions that I brought up.

Instead of insulting Him, why don't you explain how your premise is congruent with the scripture that he presents, in other words, defend the statement that you made. The common understanding of the scripture that he quoted, is that the devil exists. Now I do not have a problem with you believing differently. I really don't. But don't come on here and make a statement like that, and then insult other posters who posts scriptures that seem to contradict your statements. If you think that the their context is wrong, then explain why you think their context is wrong. If you believe that they are taking the scripture out of context, then explain your understanding of that scripture. All you have done so far is offer up a few verses, (which is exactly what you are accusing him of doing) along with some insults, which doesn't bring glory to God at all.

Maybe you are just tired, you did mention that it is like one in the morning where you are, and if that is all it is, I am sure that when you are refreshed, it will get better. I know that when I get tired, I get crabby.. My wife would definitely give a big "AMEN" to that one.

But I do want to thank you for your passion, anybody that will stay up past one a.m. just to talk about God is someone that I am proud to call a brother.

Joshua David

Joshua & Ducky.

Clear headed, sought the Fathers forgiveness through prayer, seeking a more contrite spirit while dealing with this subject of devils, demons and satan. :)

Where is the origin of sin? James 1:13-15 Mark 7:20-23 compare Jer. 17:9

I believe Joshua you have agreed with the above but Ducky is yet to acknowledge.

If you believe the origin of sin is the devil or Satan please provide quotations with some explanation of how they are the source of temptation.

I am going to assume you understand the meaning of the word Satan as being an “adversary": If you are in agreeance with Satan meaning in the Greek and Hebrew "adversary" then we find the following references regarding Satan:

Speaking of God in 2 Sam 24:1 compare 1 Chron 21:1.
An obediant angel is referred to as a Satan Num 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite in 1 Kings 11:14 is referred to as a Satan
The Apostle Peter is referred to as a Satan in Matt 16:23.

The following references are regarding the word Devil which means (to falsely accuse) also translated slanderer.



Speaking of Judas - John 6:70
Speaking of women in 1 Timothy 3:11 compare Titus 2:3.
Speaking of Men in 2 Timothy 3:3

Devil is also referred to as the "sin in the flesh" Heb. 2:14 compare Heb 9:26 and Rom 5:21 Rom 6:23
One MUST conclude when reading the above references that the devil is synonymous with "sin" and then read Rom. 7:17-18.

So lets talk about context.

You will find with prudent study two very clear conclusions become very apparent.

1. In the Holy Writ the word Devil (which is not found in the Old Testament????) is always used in a negative tense. Meaning you will never ever see this word used for good. Devil will always mean to falsely accuse someone...and this is never good. In other words you can never get a "good devil"

2. However you can have a good Satan, thats right Ducky if you study your Scriptures you will find a number of references to a GOOD SATAN.

Here are some reiterated below

Speaking of God in 2 Sam 24:1 cf 1 Chron 21:1.
An obedient angel is referred to as a Satan in Num 22:22
Hadad the Edomite in 1 Kings 11:14 is referred to as a Satan
The Apostle Peter is referred to as a Satan in Matt 16:23. (Chirst defines who satan is "you speak the things of man...) why because he was being an unwanted adversary to Jesus who was preapring for the cross.

The reason its possible to have a good Satan is due to the meaning of the word Satan.

For example Joshua last night was a good adversary; you intervened and gently rebuked me from speaking ill of Ducky. You became a good Satan to me! You were adverse to my behavoiur.

Now once you are armed with the menaing and context the many uses for the word are better understood and can be dealt with scriptures in hand.

I hopeyou are still with mer?

You will find the below quotations as those Scriptures used to support a supernatural evil Devil or Satan

1. The devil is a fallen angel. (e.g., Job 1; Rev. 12).

This presents the problem of God having all power in Heaven. Also suggest eternal / immortal beings can sin. Hopefully you both have come to an understanding that flesh is the source of sin...not a divine beings full of pure light andd glory!

2. Devil is a personal super-human being. (e.g., Matt. 4).

Joshua, there are a number of possibilities as to who is the devil here?

1. Supernatural being forcing Christ into the wilderness to encourage sin
2. External person or persons provoking him to sin
3. Jesus himself - his carnal mind wanting to use the power for illgain.

I did say I would deal with Matt 4...so here goes

If the devil were a fallen angel, why would the Holy Spirit lead the Son of God into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil?

You agree that this is the "temptation of Christ"?

And we know Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are" yet without sin (Heb. 4:15), but who today is ever engaged in discussion by a fallen angel devil?

If Jesus was tempted in all points as we are and you say this was Devil was known to Jesus? Why have I never been shown one?

Have you spoken to a Devil recently? Actually known its a supernatural being provoking you to sin?

For a temptation to be a temptation, it must be relevant to the person being tempted, but if a fallen angel offered to Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, Jesus would know he were a fake.

God, "the most High, {not a fallen angel}, ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will." (Dan. 4:32). Jesus knew his Old Testament better than all of us combined.

So if Jesus knew it was a Devil he would also know he doesn’t have the power to offer such a thing. But what had just happened? Jesus was given all power in heaven and earth by His Father. The only relevant temptation is "would he use it for personal gain" Bread, safety, Kingdom etc.

Again its comes back to the source of sin.

A number of issues a presented if you believe the Devil is supernatural being

Mark's Gospel states that Jesus was "there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan" (Mark 1:13), but at least one of the temptations is said to have taken place in the holy city Jerusalem. If Jesus actually in holy city, then the accounts appear contradictory.

Was his temptations in the wilderness or elsewhere?

Where is the mountain in the wilderness which is high enough to view all the kingdoms of the world and their glory in a moment of time? (Matt. 4:8 & Luke 4:5).

As stated Jesus had been baptized by John and given the Holy Spirit. Matt 3:16. How was the power to be used? To make life easy by using the power for selfish purposes making stones into bread? By "converting" Israel through dazzling displays of divine power by casting himself down from the pinnacle of the temple?

Or by avoiding the agony and humiliation of his crucifixion and the death which he must suffer, by taking the kingdoms of the world? his miracles would have assured this John 6:14 John 6:15)

I will leave it there for now...a lot to digest.

Once again Ducky my apologies for last night

Alethos

 

[Amazing Grace]

Interesting topic.

Why would God create a place of Everlasting Destruction/Punishment?

In the book of Daniel it is referred to as a place of Everlasting Contempt.

DA 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

Later in Romans if you do a search on the word 'contempt' you come across the following:-

RO 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

RO 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Others have already pointed out that God doesn't punish anyone without being Rigtheous and Just.

So why would God decide to treat those who have rejected Him and His truth and followed their own evil ways in such a manner to place them somewhere for Eternity where there will be trouble and distress?

I could say it is because God hates Sin so much. Which is true. God does hate Sin. However I am more inclined to point out that God is Holy and He is also Sovereign.

In the end I have scoured the Bible and not found a direct answer to the thread's title.

However, I will ask the question "why should a righteous and just God who Himself paid for the sins of mankind not have the RIGHT to punish mankind that reject Him in such a fashion? "

After all God is God and as God has the right to set up laws and punishments as He likes? We are all His creation, not the other way around. Mankind didn't invent God.

We can of course not like the fact there is an Eternal Lake of Fire waiting for those who will not repent and receive salvation but we cannot argue or debate it away.

There are some people who have re-interpreted the Word of God to change the teaching on the Eternal Lake of Fire into which Hell and Death and Satan and the fallen Angels and demons will be tossed into along with mankind who have reject God. They say that people will not live forever in this place of Torment, they will cease to exist. I won't go into details as to why they believe this but it is another attempt to change what God had said will happen because to do this they have to ignore scripture that makes it totally impossible to interpret the scriptures on Eternal Damnation in this way.

REV 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

It is absolutely obvious that forever means forever, day and night. Never ending.

I don't like reading these verses because I have family and friends that are not yet Saved Believers. I am concerned for them.

God is HOLY and he is JUST and He is also MERCIFUL. We have seen God Himself provide the scarifice required to enable mankind to aviod being sent to Everlasting Torment and Destruction. There is no doubt God is loving. It cost Him His Son and for one moment in Time God and Jesus were separated as God poured out the punishment for our sins upon His Son that knew no sin. Such a high price was paid so why is the punishment to much for those who will not receive such a great salvation?

MT 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

This is true we are to be afraid. God is not all sweetness and love but he is also a Judge.

 

[Duckybill]

Once again Ducky my apologies for last night

No problem.

 

[Alethos]

Hebrews 2:14 is the key verse in the study of the Devil

"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

If the devil is a supposed fallen wicked angel then we have some real problems here . . .

How does Jesus taking on flesh and blood battle a powerful immortal angel? "He took not on him the nature of angels" (see verse 16).

Why was the devil destroyed with the "death" of Jesus? Wouldn't "life" been more suitable?

Doesn't this verse say that the devil is now dead not actively out deceiving souls?

Devil believers will find it impossible to reconcile these questions above stated becuase Hebrews 2:14 gives us several clues to identifying the real devil:

Jesus took on our human nature to overcome the devil. But what did he overcome?

Jesus destroyed him that has the power of death.

What had the power of death? For Jesus Christ what had the power of death?

The devil has the power of death.

So what is the Devil.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus did no sin, therefore Jesus destroyed that which had power of him...the Devil

And how did Jesus destroy the flesh?

He nailed it and its lusts, desires and affections to the cross.

Alethos

ps. Personification is commonly used in the Scriptures. For example: death is personified as "reigning" (Rom 5:14), sin as a "person" (Rom 7:11), and riches as a "master" (Matt. 6:24) and so on. Destroyed him that had...personification for flesh and blood.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Hell wasn't created for humans, never was intended for us from the beginning.

When humans were created, we were originally without sin, and thus, perfect.

When Satan was created, he was also perfect and without sin.

When Satan and his minions rebelled, they were cast to the Earth, not into hell. So, seems to me, Hell was created later and prisons created later for some.

When Satan came to earth, he wasn't damned already, I believe he just lost his place in Heaven. Later, He stayed turned against God, and his eternal punishment was created. Everyone that followed him knew the consequences, and now face eternal punishment.

It's the same with people. If we chose sin, it's the same as chosing the devil. We esentially become devils ourselves and are among the devils minions. We don't need any devil in order to do wrong, but, he does try to keep the ball rolling with inspirations and encouragements for other evil deeds.

So, Hell is bad, yes. It seems to make God look cruel. God did provide a way out, and had planned so from the beginning of creation. God doesn't do anything that isn't planned to the T. It's serious enough that Jesus died for our sins. Also, He ministered to the spirits in haiti (sp?) where some were saved. Seems there was an extra chance for those who would turn to God through Christ to do so. But, even those who knew Him in heaven still refused.

Seems to me the real question is,,,,

Why should I burn in hell for doing what I want to do? Why can't I fullfill every desire of my flesh and my mind without consequence?

Even the smallest thing that seems so innocent breeds worse things. That's why it's said that a little yeast levens the whole batch. Lie and lie, will turn into lust, lust turns into jealosy or covetousness, then from there, other things, etc etc,,,,,


These questions always seem well rounded, and nicely disguised as wanting understanding, but, it's the tip of a spear meant to spread doubt and anger towards God. It's meant to show that God is cruel and shouldn't be followed or exist.

Be honest with yourself, and ask the real questions,,,,

Why can't you do what you want without consequence?

 

[Alethos]

Gods Words Below:
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews 2.14
Hebrews 2:14http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews 2.14 is the key verse in the study of the Devil

"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

If the devil is a supposed fallen wicked angel then we have some real problems here . . .

How does Jesus taking on flesh and blood battle a powerful immortal angel? "He took not on him the nature of angels" (see verse 16).

Why was the devil destroyed with the "death" of Jesus? Wouldn't "life" been more suitable?

Doesn't this verse say that the devil is now dead not actively out deceiving souls?

Devil believers will find it impossible to reconcile these questions above stated becuase Hebrews 2:14 gives us several clues to identifying the real devil:

Jesus took on our human nature to overcome the devil. But what did he overcome?

Jesus destroyed him that has the power of death.

What had the power of death? For Jesus Christ what had the power of death?

The devil has the power of death.

So what is the Devil.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus did no sin, therefore Jesus destroyed that which had power of him...the Devil

And how did Jesus destroy the flesh?

He nailed it and its lusts, desires and affections to the cross.

Alethos

ps. Personification is commonly used in the Scriptures. For example: death is personified as "reigning" (Rom 5:14), sin as a "person" (Rom 7:11), and riches as a "master" (Matt. 6:24) and so on. Destroyed him that had...personification for flesh and blood.

 

[Duckybill]

No, the devil isn't dead. He's still sending his ministers to tell us he's dead.