Why isn't the shroud of turin in the bible

[Marymog]

Amadeus began telling you, way back in posts # 85 and 87... and continuing, that he does not — and never has — needed the miracles and artifacts you seem to need, that you want to keep on saying he also has to need. What more of an answer do you want?

Thank you.

I agree with you that he said that he does not need “miracles and artifacts”. He said he was baptized at 6 and God has been with him since. He also said he has no need for miracles because it is written in his heart that Jesus is the Son of God (he refused to explain what is written in his heart). He also said that he follows Jesus for the reason Peter chose to follow Him in John 6:68; Jesus has the words of eternal life. Sooooo Amadeaus has basically given THREE reasons why he believes and why he believes Jesus is who he said he is:

(1.) Thru baptism, not by his choice, God started being with him

(2)At some point in his life it was ‘written into his heart’

(3) And at some point in his life he read in scripture that Peter stayed with Jesus because Jesus has the words of eternal life and that is Amadeus has taken upon himself that reason for believing; because Jesus said he is the Son of God (self affirmation).

1. Being baptized at the age of 6 was NOT his choice, it was the will of his parents. Amadeus did not choose to believe Jesus upon baptism. Scripture is clear that NO ONE starts believing just because they were baptized. It is ALWAYS belief first, then baptism. Sooooo we can eliminate him starting to believe at baptism.

2. It was written into his heart???? Either God chose Amadeus and decided to write it into his heart so strongly that Amadeus could not deny the truth without reading a lick of scripture OR it got written into his heart by reading/studying Scripture. Sooooo if it is written into his heart by God then why can’t he tell me what is written into his heart? Why do I have to, as he suggested, go and see him to find out???? ONE: That is kind of creepy to invite a woman you don’t know to your home just so you can explain the reason for your belief face to face. Why can’t he just write it if he can say it face to face?? TWO: If he studied Scripture and it became sooooo written into his heart thru his studies then why can’t he explain what passages of Scripture were written it into his heart that made him such a strong believer??? We can eliminate being written into his heart as the reason because if it was written into his heart he should be able to write it to me and not need to see me face to face to explain it.

3. Amadeaus took scripture (John 6:68) out of context and equated the reason for his belief to Peters belief. This is a false equation since Peter didn’t believe that Jesus was who he said he was just because Jesus said it (self affirmation). One needs to include John 6:69 and the ENTIRITY of Scripture to learn HOW Peter came to know and believe Jesus was who he said he was. Peter didn’t KNOW just by words (self affirmation). If amadeaus believes Jesus is the Son of God because Jesus said he is the Son of God that is called “circular reasoning”. Using that logic Amadeus would have to believe EVERY MAN in history who said he is the Son of God is actually the Son of God. We can eliminate Amadeus KNOWING that Jesus was who he said he was because he said it (self affirmation) because Peter didn’t KNOW or believe Jesus was who he said he was by self affirmation and Amadeus used Peter UNDER A FALSE PRETENSE as an example of WHY he believes.

In a nut shell @amadeus believies Jesus is the Son of God because Jesus said he is the Son of God.

I don’t think that is a legitimate answer HOWEVER you seem to think it is. Using that logic we have to accept and believe the testimony of everyone that says they are the Son of God and all the Jehovah Witnesses testimony and Muslim testimonies and the Mormon testimony. All are equal to the testimony of Jesus????

If you were teaching bible study to a group of adults and at the end of one year of studies you said to the group, “Now that I have taught you every reason how we KNOW that Jesus is the Son of God and we MUST believe Him and follow him for eternal salvation can any of you tell me WHY you believe He is the Son of God? A student raises their hand and says, ”Because he says he is the Son of God”!!!!!!! Would that answer be acceptable to you? I am going to guess your answer is NO therefor it shouldn’t be accepted from Amadeus either.

You ask me: What more of an answer do you want? MY ANSWER: I never wanted “more” of an answer. If you read what I wrote (of which you didn’t) you would see that I was only trying to get him to explain each new reason HE PRESENTED for his belief. I did not keep asking him the same question over and over and over again so your question is not a legitimate question.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I would just like to say that Amadeus is very intelligent, loves The Lord and would allow The Holy Spirit to guide him into ALL TRUTH. He knows his scriptures, and how can he possibly tell you, right here and now how he would "witness" to an unsaved person, (other than his own personal experiences) when it is The Holy Spirit gives us the words when and if needed!
You obviously do not understand the dynamics of the online forum. Quite different than your own place of worship, eh? It is SO easy to judge a persons every word, and so easy to spew division and hatred. Somebody on this site cannot possibly go through their own local body, the Elders...to settle differences between forum members! And as I see it, you are like a very hungry dog with a bone
with @amadeus and the "differences" seem to be between you and yourself. You cause division among the brethren here
PS: Amadeus is above your badgering so, maybe he thinks your constant nagging question after question is not worthy of his answer?

Thank you Nancy. I agree, from reading his post I believe @amadeus loves the Lord also.

I love your excuses FOR him but none of them make sense. You said he knows scripture and I do not disagree with you on that. I have only asked him WHY he believes Jesus is who he says he is; the Son of God. The only time he quoted scripture to support that belief was when he referenced what Peter said in John 6:68; You have the words of life! Sooooo using scripture Amadeus said that Jesus words are what leads him to believe Jesus is who he says he is. Jesus said he is the Son of God so therefore he must be the Son of God: That is called circular reasoning or self affirmation. Are you are ok with that? If so then you should also be ok with the hundreds of other men thru history who claim to be the Son of God. All of them are who they say they are.

For you to suggest that the Holy Spirit is not giving him the words at this time to tell my why he believes Jesus is who he says he is suggest that the Holy Spirit is taking a break......IMO. But if the Holy Spirit is taking a break then why does Amadeus not just revert back to his vast wealth of knowledge about scripture to give me the reason for his hope? Hmmmmm.....does he need the Holy Spirit to remember all of his studies also?

I simply asked amadeaus why he believes Jesus is the Son of God. He said he doesn’t need miracles to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that belief is written in his heart. To name something you DON’T need (miracles) is not an answer. And to say it is written in your heart and then when asked what is written in your heart and the answer is “come and see” is kind of CREEPY. Don’t you think?

If a guy invited you to his house to tell you something face to face....wouldn’t that creep you out Nancy??? It did me!!! If a Christian can’t explain the reason for their belief in words on a computer but then suggest they are willing to do it face to face.....that is a cop out because he knows I will never go to meet him face to face.

If you think asking someone to explain the reason for their belief is “badgering” then you are what society calls a “snow flake” and you obviously don’t know scripture either: 1 Peter 3:15

With all that said I noticed you could not explain what he was saying either HOWEVER I appreciate you sticking up for him....after all....that’s what friends are for.

Mary

 

[Helen]

@Marymog

Something is wrong with your ears or eyes...how come both @Nancy, @Willie T , and myself can read and understand the encounters that @amadeus has had, and continues to have, with God.
Yet you still chose to act dumb...as if you can't understand...
Or is it just that maybe you don't believe anything he says.

 

[Waiting on him]

Thank you Nancy. I agree, from reading his post I believe @amadeus loves the Lord also.

I love your excuses FOR him but none of them make sense. You said he knows scripture and I do not disagree with you on that. I have only asked him WHY he believes Jesus is who he says he is; the Son of God. The only time he quoted scripture to support that belief was when he referenced what Peter said in John 6:68; You have the words of life! Sooooo using scripture Amadeus said that Jesus words are what leads him to believe Jesus is who he says he is. Jesus said he is the Son of God so therefore he must be the Son of God: That is called circular reasoning or self affirmation. Are you are ok with that? If so then you should also be ok with the hundreds of other men thru history who claim to be the Son of God. All of them are who they say they are.

For you to suggest that the Holy Spirit is not giving him the words at this time to tell my why he believes Jesus is who he says he is suggest that the Holy Spirit is taking a break......IMO. But if the Holy Spirit is taking a break then why does Amadeus not just revert back to his vast wealth of knowledge about scripture to give me the reason for his hope? Hmmmmm.....does he need the Holy Spirit to remember all of his studies also?

I simply asked amadeaus why he believes Jesus is the Son of God. He said he doesn’t need miracles to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that belief is written in his heart. To name something you DON’T need (miracles) is not an answer. And to say it is written in your heart and then when asked what is written in your heart and the answer is “come and see” is kind of CREEPY. Don’t you think?

If a guy invited you to his house to tell you something face to face....wouldn’t that creep you out Nancy??? It did me!!! If a Christian can’t explain the reason for their belief in words on a computer but then suggest they are willing to do it face to face.....that is a cop out because he knows I will never go to meet him face to face.

If you think asking someone to explain the reason for their belief is “badgering” then you are what society calls a “snow flake” and you obviously don’t know scripture either: 1 Peter 3:15

With all that said I noticed you could not explain what he was saying either HOWEVER I appreciate you sticking up for him....after all....that’s what friends are for.

Mary

Snow flake?

 

[Waiting on him]

Thank you Nancy. I agree, from reading his post I believe @amadeus loves the Lord also.

I love your excuses FOR him but none of them make sense. You said he knows scripture and I do not disagree with you on that. I have only asked him WHY he believes Jesus is who he says he is; the Son of God. The only time he quoted scripture to support that belief was when he referenced what Peter said in John 6:68; You have the words of life! Sooooo using scripture Amadeus said that Jesus words are what leads him to believe Jesus is who he says he is. Jesus said he is the Son of God so therefore he must be the Son of God: That is called circular reasoning or self affirmation. Are you are ok with that? If so then you should also be ok with the hundreds of other men thru history who claim to be the Son of God. All of them are who they say they are.

For you to suggest that the Holy Spirit is not giving him the words at this time to tell my why he believes Jesus is who he says he is suggest that the Holy Spirit is taking a break......IMO. But if the Holy Spirit is taking a break then why does Amadeus not just revert back to his vast wealth of knowledge about scripture to give me the reason for his hope? Hmmmmm.....does he need the Holy Spirit to remember all of his studies also?

I simply asked amadeaus why he believes Jesus is the Son of God. He said he doesn’t need miracles to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that belief is written in his heart. To name something you DON’T need (miracles) is not an answer. And to say it is written in your heart and then when asked what is written in your heart and the answer is “come and see” is kind of CREEPY. Don’t you think?

If a guy invited you to his house to tell you something face to face....wouldn’t that creep you out Nancy??? It did me!!! If a Christian can’t explain the reason for their belief in words on a computer but then suggest they are willing to do it face to face.....that is a cop out because he knows I will never go to meet him face to face.

If you think asking someone to explain the reason for their belief is “badgering” then you are what society calls a “snow flake” and you obviously don’t know scripture either: 1 Peter 3:15

With all that said I noticed you could not explain what he was saying either HOWEVER I appreciate you sticking up for him....after all....that’s what friends are for.

Mary

What miracles did you witness at the receiving of Christ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Not really. There are many who have no problem with the natural laws of God, but do have a problem with the God of the Bible and with the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, many evildoers have no problem with the natural laws of God, but they violate the moral and spiritual laws of God every day.

Hi E,
Are we talking about the same laws?
The Natural Law of God IS the moral law.

I meant that anyone who preaches good deeds/works, the golden rule, etc...
CAN be someone sent from God.

Jesus didn't always exist but man always knew of a higher power,,,
I didn't mean a street preacher. I meant someone throughout history that was sent to preach the word of God. There was always someone.

Man instinctively knows that it's wrong to kill (except in NYC).
Man instinctively knows it's wrong to steal....etc.
This is the Natural Law.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Marymog

I once started on thread on:
Why Do You Believe?

The answers were kind of like what Amadeus answered and others agree with.
They gave very personal reasons. Most everybody, anyway.

If this is how they feel, then this is what must be accepted.

The first thing I learned in studying some theology is that our faith is a reasonable faith. What is that reason based on? Many never consider this.

How do we know the resurrection really happened?
Many never consider this.

In a way I envy them. Jesus said to love God with all our mind, and heart and soul. Sometimes I wish I didn't need to understand with my mind so much...

 

[Enoch111]

The Natural Law of God IS the moral law.

Not really. The natural laws of God govern the operation of the universe. They are not the same as the moral and spiritual laws. Here is an example:

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. (Gen 1:14,15)

 

[Marymog]

..... It is SO easy to judge a persons every word, and so easy to spew division and hatred. Somebody on this site cannot possibly go through their own local body, the Elders...to settle differences between forum members!.....You cause division among the brethren here

Scripture doesnt’ say we should go to our “Elder” or “local body” to settle our difference. Scripture says to go to The Church.

This has nothing to do with our differences. This has to do with him not being able to explain WHY he believes something. I asked a question; he can’t answer. How can we have a difference if he hasn’t given me a reason to have a difference????

How can I, one insignificant member of this forum, cause division among the bretheren here? I ask someone to explain the reason for their belief AND THAT’S DIVISIVE.......Hmmmmmmm.....

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Does @Marymog mean we need miracles to believe...
OR
Is she saying that miracles can be a sign that Jesus is God?

Haven't been following along --- sorry.
I don't think she meant that we need miracles to believe.

Maybe she could answer?

Thank you GG.

The miracles along with the resurrection (also a miracle) are evidence that Jesus is who he said he is: The Son of God.

Take the miracles and resurrection out of the NT and you would have to say that you KNOW and BELIEVE Jesus is the Son of God because he said he is the Son of God: self affirmation and/or circular reasoning.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog

Something is wrong with your ears or eyes...how come both @Nancy, @Willie T , and myself can read and understand the encounters that @amadeus has had, and continues to have, with God.
Yet you still chose to act dumb...as if you can't understand...
Or is it just that maybe you don't believe anything he says.

This has nothing to do with "encounters with God".

The question is: Why do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?

@Willie T has given an what he believes is the answer from Amadeus.

@Nancy couldn't give an answer. She chose to go on the attack and accuse me of being divisive.

What is it that you understand? Please extrapolate for me from Amadeus's answers to me WHY he believes Jesus is the Son of God.

I already know he said it is written in his heart but he can't even explain to me how it is written in his heart sooo there is not way you can explain it to me. What is your interpretation of his post's???

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Snow flake?

A person who is easily offended or overly sensitive.

In this case I asked Amadeus the reason why he believes Jesus is the Son of God. Nancy came to his defense and told me I was "badgering" Amadeus.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

What miracles did you witness at the receiving of Christ?

I have not witnessed any miracles and have never claimed to have witnessed any miracles. Have you witnessed any miracles?

In general: I have come to believe that Jesus is the Son of God because of the testimony of other men. That testimony is written in Scripture.

How did you decide that Jesus was telling the Truth when he said he is the Son of God?

Curious Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you GG.

The miracles along with the resurrection (also a miracle) are evidence that Jesus is who he said he is: The Son of God.

Take the miracles and resurrection out of the NT and you would have to say that you KNOW and BELIEVE Jesus is the Son of God because he said he is the Son of God: self affirmation and/or circular reasoning.

Mary

I'd go a step further and say He'd be just another messenger of God....
Like the ones I spoke of in some posts above.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog

I once started on thread on:
Why Do You Believe?

The answers were kind of like what Amadeus answered and others agree with.
They gave very personal reasons. Most everybody, anyway.

If this is how they feel, then this is what must be accepted.

The first thing I learned in studying some theology is that our faith is a reasonable faith. What is that reason based on? Many never consider this.

How do we know the resurrection really happened?
Many never consider this.

In a way I envy them. Jesus said to love God with all our mind, and heart and soul. Sometimes I wish I didn't need to understand with my mind so much...

I agree. Many never consider or don't know why they believe what they believe or how they KNOW the resurrection really happened.

However, in @amadeus case, he portrays himself (and others on here portray him) as being inspired by the Holy Spirit, knowledgeable of Scripture, very intelligent, wise etc. etc.

For that reason I expected more of an answer from him other than "It is written in my heart". He disappointed me.

And then when asked "What is written in your heart?" he gives the creepy response "Come and see".

You said some very wise words. Words that I should follow: I wish I didn't need to understand with my mind so much.

Thank you ByGrace....Gods peace to you...Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

Not really. The natural laws of God govern the operation of the universe. They are not the same as the moral and spiritual laws. Here is an example:

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. (Gen 1:14,15)

I'm sorry E, the above is not right.

Please see the following...

Natural law - Wikipedia

 

[amadeus]

Thank you.

You became "a follower of God and Jesus" because your parents raised you that way. That means you didn't really choose, they chose for you.

God was there with you at your baptism. Now, as an adult, you obviously still believe God is with you. Why do you continue to follow Jesus? What evidence did he provide to compel you to follow and BELIEVE in him?

Without the miracles He performed, would you still follow him?

Mary

I just reread this and wanted to clarify that my parents did not raise to believe in God by teaching or by example. My step-father, a Portugee, had always been a Catholic nominally but I cannot remember him ever attending church or a mass. My mother became Catholic when she married him before I was old enough to remember, but she only went to midnight mass a few times over the years while I lived in her home. Neither one of them did anything at home to remind us of God and Jesus unless it was during the periodic fights they had in which the words, God and Jesus, were frequently spoken in their railing against each other.

 

[Waiting on him]

I have not witnessed any miracles and have never claimed to have witnessed any miracles. Have you witnessed any miracles?

In general: I have come to believe that Jesus is the Son of God because of the testimony of other men. That testimony is written in Scripture.

How did you decide that Jesus was telling the Truth when he said he is the Son of God?

Curious Mary

when I came under the conviction of the Spirit of God there was no one around. There was no one proclaiming Jesus. I was on a roof top working with my father(who totally rejects God) and my great aunt who was a devout Christian was in the house beneath us. I never asked but I firmly believe, I know she was asking him for me, because something within me spoke. And I don’t mean audibly. I don’t believe I even spoke a word the rest of the day. That to me is a miracle (supernatural)I guess blessed are those who haven’t seen yet believe. Sorry I can’t give the glory to a man.

 

[amadeus]

I agree. Many never consider or don't know why they believe what they believe or how they KNOW the resurrection really happened.

However, in @amadeus case, he portrays himself (and others on here portray him) as being inspired by the Holy Spirit, knowledgeable of Scripture, very intelligent, wise etc. etc.

For that reason I expected more of an answer from him other than "It is written in my heart". He disappointed me.

And then when asked "What is written in your heart?" he gives the creepy response "Come and see".

You said some very wise words. Words that I should follow: I wish I didn't need to understand with my mind so much.

Thank you ByGrace....Gods peace to you...Mary

What can I do? I am what I am which is certainly less than God is able to make if I allow it. You want a black and white answer to your questions, and I simply won't do that, not because I have no answer, but because I have learned to strive not to generalize. I know I have mentioned this before although perhaps not to you. When I have given such answers to people in the past, I have more than once come to regret it because the answer did not always fit every real situation that would come along.

Jesus did not answer every question because He was always in the Father's will. Did He have an answer when He did not answer? Did He even answer a question with something people could not understand or would not accept?

How much like Jesus am I? Since I fall short in so many areas so often how could I honestly answer that question? Don't you believe it is a good idea sometimes to simply remain quiet? How is it we know when to remain quiet and when to speak? Is there a person of flesh and blood who will always be there to correctly advise us each time a question arises or should arise in me or in you?
God's peace to you!

 

[farouk]

when I came under the conviction of the Spirit of God there was no one around. There was no one proclaiming Jesus. I was on a roof top working with my father(who totally rejects God) and my great aunt who was a devout Christian was in the house beneath us. I never asked but I firmly believe, I know she was asking him for me, because something within me spoke. And I don’t mean audibly. I don’t believe I even spoke a word the rest of the day. That to me is a miracle (supernatural)I guess blessed are those who haven’t seen yet believe. Sorry I can’t give the glory to a man.

John 3 speaks of the Spirit of God as a wind, moving invisibly...