Why is there a new song in heaven?

[ewq1938]

1st Song
Rev 4:9-11
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

No song and no singing.


From verse 10, "saying". This word appears 1343 times but not once translated as singing. To be singing it needs to be described as people singing. There are also no musical instruments mentioned as there is in the next verse which has harps and singing.




G3004
λέγω
legō
leg'-o
A primary verb; properly to “lay” forth, that is, (figuratively) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas G2036 and G5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while G4483 is properly to break silence merely, and G2980 means an extended or random harangue]); by implication to mean: - ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say (-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
Total KJV occurrences: 1343

Then in Rev 5, there is a new song.
Rev 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

In verse 9 the saying is described as "sung" which means these words are sung as opposed to being spoken.

In the first, the elders are talking. In the second the elders are playing harps and singing.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Here an elder is speaking, not singing.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.


Here the elders speak, not sing.

 

[6 Stories]

No song and no singing.


From verse 10, "saying". This word appears 1343 times but not once translated as singing. To be singing it needs to be described as people singing. There are also no musical instruments mentioned as there is in the next verse which has harps and singing.




G3004
λέγω
legō
leg'-o
A primary verb; properly to “lay” forth, that is, (figuratively) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas G2036 and G5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while G4483 is properly to break silence merely, and G2980 means an extended or random harangue]); by implication to mean: - ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say (-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
Total KJV occurrences: 1343



In verse 9 the saying is described as "sung" which means these words are sung as opposed to being spoken.

In the first, the elders are talking. In the second the elders are playing harps and singing.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Here an elder is speaking, not singing.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.


Here the elders speak, not sing.

Although the first song was spoken and not sung, it was still the first song. I have heard arguments that all of the songs of the heavenly host were spoken and not sung. Do you claim a different first song?

 

[ewq1938]

Although the first song was spoken and not sung, it was still the first song. I have heard arguments that all of the songs of the heavenly host were spoken and not sung. Do you claim a different first song?

I claim speaking isn't a song. I'm not singing right now. The first song mentioned in Rev is here:

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[quietthinker]

1st Song
Rev 4:9-11
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Then in Rev 5, there is a new song.
Rev 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Because the song is me, me, me and me.

 

[PinSeeker]

How do you then explain Matt 12:40?
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Was Jesus not buried after "giving up His spirit"? He was... in the tomb. His body was in the tomb.

This seems to be the popular point of view.

Well, that's because it's the right one. :) And this is why we call it 'orthodox.' :)

I believe it is the time Jesus ascended into heaven and was restored with the glory he had with the Father before he emptied some of that and became a man.

Hmm, well, do you understand the 'emptying' (related by Paul in Philippians 2) to mean that Jesus "completely voided it" from Himself and that He no longer had it (glory with the Father)? Because that's not the case. He humbled Himself, meaning He set it aside for man's sake and resolved not to use His deity or glory for His own sake ~ which is Paul's very point there, that He regarded everyone else as more important, even far more important, than Himself for their sake. Even while He walked the earth, He was still ~ always was, and always will be ~ God made man (John 1:1, 1:14). Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

6 stories ending at the time of Jesus' return.
Rev 6:1-6:17, Rev 7:1-8:5, Rev 8:6-11:19, Rev 12:7-14:20, Rev 15:1-16:21, and Rev 18:1-19:21.
The 7th story would be Rev 20, the time of the millennial reign of Jesus.
The 8th story is Rev 21-22, the new heavens and new earth.

Hm. Well, okay. I mean, it seems you and I are pretty close together in our understanding, which is great. This is not terribly important, but rather than "stories," I would rather characterize them as cycles, as in cycles of judgment. And they are concurrent (as you may agree)... the cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to Christ's second coming (which you agree with). So yes, each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point, and moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the second coming itself:

• Cycle 1: 7 seals, Revelation 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: 7 trumpets, Revelation 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest, Revelation 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: 7 bowls, Revelation 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon, Revelation 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: white horse judgment, Revelation 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: white throne judgment, Revelation 20:1-21:8

The culminating act is the new Jerusalem Revelation 21:9-22:5, Revelation 22:6-20 consists of final instructions and exhortations, and Revelation 22:21 is the closing salutation.

So, still, I say seven (which is a number denoting completeness throughout the Bible), not six (which is a number used in various ways to indicate incompleteness and a "falling short" in the Bible). Not so sure any "debate" is necessary here; I think, again, that we're pretty close in our understanding, which is great! :)

Grace and peace to you!

 

[PinSeeker]

One last thing with regard to the original subject: When we see "new song," we should not really that the song is "new" or that it is different, really, than it used to be, but we should think "Gospel." :)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[6 Stories]

Was Jesus not buried after "giving up His spirit"? He was... in the tomb. His body was in the tomb.

EWQ in When did Jesus receive the book/scroll. All of my arguments are there. EWQ is with you.

Well, that's because it's the right one. :) And this is why we call it 'orthodox.' :)

This othodox timing has always produced disagreement. If Revelation interpretation was settled, I wouldn't be unorthodox in my thinking.

Hmm, well, do you understand the 'emptying' (related by Paul in Philippians 2) to mean that Jesus "completely voided it" from Himself and that He no longer had it (glory with the Father)? Because that's not the case. He humbled Himself, meaning He set it aside for man's sake and resolved not to use His deity or glory for His own sake ~ which is Paul's very point there, that He regarded everyone else as more important, even far more important, than Himself for their sake. Even while He walked the earth, He was still ~ always was, and always will be ~ God made man (John 1:1, 1:14). Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

What you have stated makes as much sense as anything that I could wrap my mind around.

I still believe the picture of Jesus, not sitting on the throne with the Father in Rev 4 and 5 has to be the time that the 'emptying' of Jesus came to and end. Jesus would already have had the scroll and would have been seated with the Father at any other time.

Hm. Well, okay. I mean, it seems you and I are pretty close together in our understanding, which is great. This is not terribly important, but rather than "stories," I would rather characterize them as cycles, as in cycles of judgment. And they are concurrent (as you may agree)... the cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to Christ's second coming (which you agree with). So yes, each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point, and moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the second coming itself:

• Cycle 1: 7 seals, Revelation 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: 7 trumpets, Revelation 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest, Revelation 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: 7 bowls, Revelation 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon, Revelation 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: white horse judgment, Revelation 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: white throne judgment, Revelation 20:1-21:8

The culminating act is the new Jerusalem Revelation 21:9-22:5, Revelation 22:6-20 consists of final instructions and exhortations, and Revelation 22:21 is the closing salutation.

We agree on the second coming at the end of cycles 2, 3, 4, and 6. Cycle 4 gives the most complete explanation of the last events.
Rev 15:1 - 7 angels having the 7 last plagues. Therefore, the 7th plague is the last plague, the end of the cycle, the 2nd coming. The gathering of the nations in the 6th plague and parts of the 7th plague occur at the end of each of my 'stories.' Look for lightnings, voices, and thunders; symbollically the throne of God - Rev 4:5. There is a Mt Sinai (Exodus 19) type of the throne of God coming to earth (stated without symbols in Rev 6:16) which makes the earth quake. Each story ends with God's wrath, and hail often follows the lightnings, voices, thunders and earthquake. The winepress in Rev 14 and 19 is mountain rocks and hail squashing God's enemies.

How did you conclude that cycles 2, 3, 4, and 6 ended with the 2nd coming?

So, still, I say seven (which is a number denoting completeness throughout the Bible), not six (which is a number used in various ways to indicate incompleteness and a "falling short" in the Bible). Not so sure any "debate" is necessary here; I think, again, that we're pretty close in our understanding, which is great! :)

Grace and peace to you!

My 7th story includes the 2nd coming, but this story does not end there.
My 8th story is the New Heaven, New Earth, and new week, the start of a new 7.

 

[6 Stories]

One last thing with regard to the original subject: When we see "new song," we should not really that the song is "new" or that it is different, really, than it used to be, but we should think "Gospel." :)

Grace and peace to all.

I don't understand. Wasn't the Gospel new, when it was presented?
1st song - Relationship between man and God exists for those with faith in the creator God, but mankind is not redeemed from the earth.
2nd song - Spiritual redemption of mankind from the earth to those with faith in Jesus.
3rd song - Rev 14:3 The firstfruits of mankind who receive both spiritual and physical redemption from the earth.

These things were all in God's plan from the beginning, so in that sense they are not new.

 

[rwb]

I don't understand. Wasn't the Gospel new, when it was presented?
1st song - Relationship between man and God exists for those with faith in the creator God, but mankind is not redeemed from the earth.
2nd song - Spiritual redemption of mankind from the earth to those with faith in Jesus.
3rd song - Rev 14:3 The firstfruits of mankind who receive both spiritual and physical redemption from the earth.

These things were all in God's plan from the beginning, so in that sense they are not new.

Was not the Gospel the message of the Savior, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, proclaimed through the Law and Prophets of Old? Paul says that Israel knew, and that even Abraham heard the Gospel of Christ.

Romans 10:12-21 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Galatians 3:6-9 (KJV) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 

[PinSeeker]

EWQ in When did Jesus receive the book/scroll. All of my arguments are there. EWQ is with you.

No idea what you're saying here. I'm... not with EQW on... quite a bit of stuff. :)

This orthadox timing has always produced disagreement.

I mean... people are going to disagree on just about anything... :)

What you have stated makes as much sense as anything that I could wrap my mind around.

Okay, good. :)

I still believe the picture of Jesus, not sitting on the throne with the Father in Rev 4 and 5 has to be the time that the 'emptying' of Jesus came to and end.

What makes you think Jesus is not present? I would say He is...

We agree on the second coming at the end of cycles 2, 3, 4, and 6. Cycle 4 gives the most complete explanation of the last events.

I would say the second coming ~ though not explicit ~ is at or near the end of all seven. It has to be, 6Stories, if all the cycles are concurrent (which I think we agree on), right?

How did you conclude that cycles 2, 3, 4, and 6 ended with the 2nd coming?

See immediately above.

My 7th story includes the 2nd coming, but this story does not end there.

Agree.

My 8th story is the New Heaven, New Earth, and new week, the start of a new 7.

It seems to me a quite convoluted way to think of things, but okay. I mean yes, when all things are made new, as God says this is what He's doing in Revelation 21:5, the old order of things will have completely passed away, and eternity begins, and will never end. All seven cycles will have completely expired, and the new heaven and new earth is all there is and ever will be. I mean, "the start of a new 7", besides being really sort of a non-sensical way to put it, would really imply that Christ is going to return again at the end of... that one... which is not true, because he will never be absent from the new heaven and the new earth. Right? :)

I don't understand. Wasn't the Gospel new, when it was presented?

Well, yes and no. No, in the sense that everything in the Old Testament pointed forward to Christ and His accomplishment of redemption on the Cross... Genesis 3:15 is the first veiled allusion to... proclamation of... the Gospel. But yes, in the sense that Christ had finally come and accomplished redemption on the Cross, and that the Gospel, from Jesus's birth, had finally been opened to the Gentiles also. The passage that comes to mind is Hebrews 1:1-2...

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."​

So, God didn't really say "different things" before the time of Christ, but just in different ways... through what we call "types" and "shadows." You will recall the conversation Jesus had with the two men on the road to Emmaus after His resurrection, where, "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Luke 24:27). Jesus even explicitly says all the Old Testament (Moses and the Prophets) is about Him (in John 5:46).

1st song - Relationship between man and God exists for those with faith in the creator God, but mankind is not redeemed from the earth.
2nd song - Spiritual redemption of mankind from the earth to those with faith in Jesus.
3rd song - Rev 14:3 The firstfruits of mankind who receive both spiritual and physical redemption from the earth.

These things were all in God's plan from the beginning, so in that sense they are not new.

Okay, well, again, not worth disagreeing over... :)... but I say that there really is only one Song, and it is from everlasting to everlasting. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[6 Stories]

Was not the Gospel the message of the Savior, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, proclaimed through the Law and Prophets of Old? Paul says that Israel knew, and that even Abraham heard the Gospel of Christ.

They new a redeemer would come. They didn't know Christ.

Romans 10:12-21 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Isaiah was prophesying that when Jesus came, many Jews would reject Jesus, but many Gentiles would believe in Jesus.

The sound going into all of the earth is a reference to Psalm 19:1-6

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Galatians 3:6-9 (KJV) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Throughout time, God's people have been saved by grace through faith.
In Abraham's time, people had faith in God through creation. - Song 1.
Since Jesus ascended into heaven, people have had faith in God through the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. - Song 2.
When the 2 witnesses die, are resurrected, and ascend into heaven, all Israel will come to faith in God. - Song 3.

 

[rwb]

They new a redeemer would come. They didn't know Christ.

They knew of The Redeemer who is the promised Messiah that would come, Christ Jesus, our Lord. Both the Law and Prophets point to Him.

Isaiah was prophesying that when Jesus came, many Jews would reject Jesus, but many Gentiles would believe in Jesus.

Very sad really, because the coming of The Messiah who would redeem them was repeatedly foretold to the Jews. Long before the Gentiles knew of Christ Jesus our Lord, the Jewish nation had been taught that a Messiah would come to save them IF they believed. Isaiah's prophesy shows that most of the nation of Old refused to believe in Him, and in fact is the reason they rejected Jesus when He did come. For that reason Scripture records that most of them of Old died in unbelief.

Hebrews 3:17-19 (KJV) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:6-10 (KJV) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The sound going into all of the earth is a reference to Psalm 19:1-6

The reference "their words to the end of the world" is reference to Isaiah.

Isaiah 49:5-8 (KJV) And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Throughout time, God's people have been saved by grace through faith.
In Abraham's time, people had faith in God through creation. - Song 1.
Since Jesus ascended into heaven, people have had faith in God through the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. - Song 2.
When the 2 witnesses die, are resurrected, and ascend into heaven, all Israel will come to faith in God. - Song 3.

The heaven's declare the glory of God as the Creator! Abraham had faith in God's promise that his seed (Christ) would come through him, and would be the Saviour of whosoever is of the same faith as that of Abraham.

Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 22:17-18 (KJV) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The promise from God to Abraham was repeated to Jacob through dream.

Genesis 28:10-14 (KJV) And Jacob went out from Beer-sheba, and went toward Haran. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

 

[6 Stories]

They knew of The Redeemer who is the promised Messiah that would come, Christ Jesus, our Lord. Both the Law and Prophets point to Him.


Very sad really, because the coming of The Messiah who would redeem them was repeatedly foretold to the Jews. Long before the Gentiles knew of Christ Jesus our Lord, the Jewish nation had been taught that a Messiah would come to save them IF they believed. Isaiah's prophesy shows that most of the nation of Old refused to believe in Him, and in fact is the reason they rejected Jesus when He did come. For that reason Scripture records that most of them of Old died in unbelief.

Hebrews 3:17-19 (KJV) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:6-10 (KJV) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.



The reference "their words to the end of the world" is reference to Isaiah.

Isaiah 49:5-8 (KJV) And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;



The heaven's declare the glory of God as the Creator! Abraham had faith in God's promise that his seed (Christ) would come through him, and would be the Saviour of whosoever is of the same faith as that of Abraham.

Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 22:17-18 (KJV) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The promise from God to Abraham was repeated to Jacob through dream.

Genesis 28:10-14 (KJV) And Jacob went out from Beer-sheba, and went toward Haran. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

As my wife would tell me, "It's all about the relationships."
OT saints could have a relationship with a creator God who had been made manifest.
They could not have a relationship with a redeemer God who had been promised, but not yet been made manifest.
Yes, it is very sad that everyone does not accept their Messiah.

 

[rwb]

As my wife would tell me, "It's all about the relationships."
OT saints could have a relationship with a creator God who had been made manifest.
They could not have a relationship with a redeemer God who had been promised, but not yet been made manifest.
Yes, it is very sad that everyone does not accept their Messiah.

They could have known the Messiah! They had only to believe, according to Covenant Promise. That's why Christ is spoken of as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Just as we, who live after the cross look back to Christ, those of Old Covenant Israel were to look forward, believing He would come just as the Law and Prophets foretell He would. Instead of believing the Messiah would come to save them, as the elect remnant of Old according to God's grace through faith did, the majority of Old Covenant Israel believed that obedience to the Law would save them. They did not believe or accept the promised Messiah because it meant they must be dependent upon only Him to be their Savior, and understand that obedience to the Law of Moses pointed to HIM.

 

[6 Stories]

No idea what you're saying here. I'm... not with EQW on... quite a bit of stuff. :)


I mean... people are going to disagree on just about anything... :)


Okay, good. :)


What makes you think Jesus is not present? I would say He is...

Jesus was present in heaven when he received the scroll. I was trying to make the point that this had to be the moment he ascended into heaven. At any other time, Jesus would have already had the scroll.

I would say the second coming ~ though not explicit ~ is at or near the end of all seven. It has to be, 6Stories, if all the cycles are concurrent (which I think we agree on), right?

We agree that the cycles are concurrent. I don't understand how you see the second coming at the end of your cycles 1 and 5.

See immediately above.


Agree.


It seems to me a quite convoluted way to think of things, but okay. I mean yes, when all things are made new, as God says this is what He's doing in Revelation 21:5, the old order of things will have completely passed away, and eternity begins, and will never end. All seven cycles will have completely expired, and the new heaven and new earth is all there is and ever will be. I mean, "the start of a new 7", besides being really sort of a non-sensical way to put it, would really imply that Christ is going to return again at the end of... that one... which is not true, because he will never be absent from the new heaven and the new earth. Right? :)

At the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ on the present earth, the earth's atoms will be turned into energy. One big atomic bomb.
2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

When Israel went into Babylonian captivity, it was a 'day of the Lord.'
When Jesus returns, it will be a different 'day of the Lord.'
When heaven and earth are 'fled away,' it will be a different 'day of the Lord.' The one found in 2 Peter.
Rev 20:11 " And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

There is evidence for a new Genesis. Just as in our beginning, sin brought death, but people lived long lives. In will be so in the NHNE.
Isaiah 65:17-20
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

My guess is that we are part of the 7th new heaven and new earth because this heaven and earth are coming to an end. Our heaven and earth started with something that was not good in Genesis 1:2.

Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
That's not good that the earth was without form and void and dark. Everything that God created in Genesis was good.

Jeremiah 4:
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Sounds like the earth was made void and the heavens were blackened from the previous state they were in.
This is part of the 'Gap Theory.' A gap may exist between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

So, God didn't really say "different things" before the time of Christ, but just in different ways... through what we call "types" and "shadows." You will recall the conversation Jesus had with the two men on the road to Emmaus after His resurrection, where, "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Luke 24:27). Jesus even explicitly says all the Old Testament (Moses and the Prophets) is about Him (in John 5:46).

I agree with you on types and shadows.

Okay, well, again, not worth disagreeing over... :)... but I say that there really is only one Song, and it is from everlasting to everlasting. :)

Grace and peace to you.

I really enjoy these conversations with you.

 

[6 Stories]

They could have known the Messiah! They had only to believe, according to Covenant Promise. That's why Christ is spoken of as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Just as we, who live after the cross look back to Christ, those of Old Covenant Israel were to look forward, believing He would come just as the Law and Prophets foretell He would. Instead of believing the Messiah would come to save them, as the elect remnant of Old according to God's grace through faith did, the majority of Old Covenant Israel believed that obedience to the Law would save them. They did not believe or accept the promised Messiah because it meant they must be dependent upon only Him to be their Savior, and understand that obedience to the Law of Moses pointed to HIM.

I think we are talking about 2 different things. I agree that there were OT believers who knew their Messiah was coming. He had just not come yet.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus was present in heaven when he received the scroll. I was trying to make the point that this had to be the moment he ascended into heaven.

And it is the only place where Christ is seen and described as a lamb slain which IMO hints that he had recently been killed. Thousands of years later, it would be a little odd to have him appear that way. Not impossible but I find the description to be a better match had he just ascended which isn't very long (especially according to time in heaven) after he was killed as that Lamb.